Can China Avoid the Soviet Union's Fate? | Asian American Issues

CAN CHINA AVOID THE SOVIET UNION'S FATE?

he People's Republic of China likes to compare itself with the United States. Both governments were forged to throw off the imperial yoke. Both are amalgams of many races and nationalities. Both are great continental powers capable of harnessing immense resources to promote national agendas around the world.
     Beijing's bosses cite these parallels to justify China's ambition of returning Taiwan to the fold -- forcibly if necessary -- and violently suppressing movements for Tibetan independence, Moslem separatism and religious tolerance. The party line: "In a few decades we will be as prosperous, unified and democratic as you Americans."
     Unfortunately, some observers see closer parallels to the former Soviet Union.
     Founded in 1910 to free Russian peasants from oppressive landowners and a weak imperial government, the Soviet government quickly and ruthlessly expanded into a superpower that rivaled the United States in military might and reach. On top of nearly 300 million citizens of several dozen captive nationalities, the Soviet Union became the puppetmasters of virtually every Eastern European government. By 1989 it was buckling under the burden of superpower competition. In 1991 the communists lost power to the reformist Yeltsin. The Soviet Union broke apart into Russia and a dozen independent republics. Today Russia is a nation of 150 million struggling to build a capitalist economy from the rubble of the communist meltdown.
     Among the Soviets' earliest converts were Mao Tsetung, Zhou Enlai and other young Chinese intellectuals who saw in communism salvation for the Chinese people from western imperialism and internal corruption. Mao's long struggle against Chiang Kaishek and the Kuomingtang would have ended disasterously without the support of dozens of ethnic minorities in northwestern China who believed his promise of ultimate political autonomy. Their help proved more valuable to Mao than the billions in American aid and direct military assistance to Chiang. By 1949 the Kuomingtang had fled to Taiwan and the PRC ruled the mainland.
     Beijing's bosses have been as ruthless as the Soviets in consolidating territory and suppressing separatist movements. But they have been far more successful in creating a functioning economy. They began capitalist reforms in 1979. By 2001 China's economy had become free enough to enter the World Trade Organization. For the past two decades it has grown at an average annual rate of 9%. Few of China's 1.25 billion go hungry and about 125 million enjoy living standards comparable to Malaysia and the Philippines. By some measure China has just surpassed Japan in GDP and will surpass the U.S. by 2025.
     But China's future as a united nation is far from assured.
     Even assuming peaceful reunification with Taiwan and victory over Tibetan separatists, Beijing's leaders face some big hurdles. They must integrate a billion subsistence-level farmers and workers into the consumer economy of the east coast or face ethnic discontent on a scale that would dwarf America's racial strife of the 1960s. Yet burdening the developed regions could breed separatist sentiment in Guangdong, Fujien, Manchuria and other regions. Over 100 languages and dialects are spoken in China. Long-suppressed religious minorities are becoming better organized thanks to the internet and other communications technology.
     Are China's prospects for staying united more like those of the U.S. or of the former Soviet Union?

(Updated )

-Socrates meets gzus in NY arguing in a forum-

gzus:
"China is atheist, and the few value systems available to Chinese- buddism, taoism, confucianism, are all garbage"

Socrates:
Quite the contrary, both taoism and buddhism believe in the existence of gods and god-like essences. Atheism is the belief that no god exists whatsoever. This simply isn't the case for any of the three ideologies that you have listed above since neither doctrine specifically affirms atheism to its followers in any shape or form.

gzus:
"China has no moral foundation, and its culture is stagnant."

Socrates:
Of all the major beliefs in the world, confucianism is more a set of moral values than a religion. It is upon these values that China has based her moral foundation for the bulk of her history and many of the same values are seen in other major religions as well: don't kill, don't steal, don't abuse alcohol.

How so is China's culture stagnant? Has China's culture not been exposed to constant waves of western influence this past century? If anything, this article and current events suggest the exact opposite.

gzus:
"China...as an atheist nation...have a choice between nihilism and objectivsm, neither of which are suitable for the masses, but even worse, most just drift. This is the case whether they realize it or not."

Socrates:
Another unrealistic case since it is impossible to live in an atheistic nation. Believers are extremely resilient in finding ways to keep their faith regardless of whether it is forbidden, and they are persecuted. China is no different from other examples in history and I simply can not see her running into the arms of either nihilism or objectivism as a direct result of this.

gzus:
"A functional value system is necessary for everyone"

Socrates:
If it is, pray tell me the system you are thinking of. It is rather inconcievable why you write off Confucianism with such conviction. As I have already said, China has had this functional value system for many millenia now as evidenced by her historical supremacy in Asia for many centuries, and Confucianism is widely accepted as a doctrine in all of Asia. Surely, it is improbable that Confucianism is to blame for ALL of China's, and Asia's, modern problems.

gzus:
"China will never measure up to the West unless they expose the masses to what is the foundation of all that is good in the West, that is Western philosophy from Plato to Rand to the Judaic Talmud."

"Again, I think a value system, along with the transfer of western philosophy would dramatically alter the future of China, and probably add several points to annual economic growth."

Socrates:
Again, What value system are you speaking of gzus?.
How would western philosophy lead to economic growth? It is unreasonable to take your statement for granted since the notion that the annual economic growth of a nation is proportional to the number of people reading Plato is an absurd one.

gzus:
"I don't mean crap like Kant, Confucius, Taoism, nihilism and all the useless stuff."

Socrates:
Once again, you are quick to dismiss these ideologies of any worth. Tell me then. What good would functional value systems be, unless we had nihilism to compare them to? A value system certainly seems more appealing when we look at nihilism. But I challenge you to give me an example of one value system that can be useful in every way.

gzus:
"Again what is critical is that Chinese lack an adaptive value system...If one is not created then each Chinese [will live with direction] or spend much time figuring everyone out, as opposed to say, Christianity and Judaism, as imperfect as they may be, they still capture the wisdom of the ages and spare every 1.2 billion average person from having to figure most things out on their own."[Is this necessarily a bad thing?]
"And in response to the post from "Socrates", I never advocated Christianity/Christian values or god."

Socrates:
According to you, Christianity is a functional, albeit imperfect, value system that captures the 'wisdom of the ages'. Namely the 'western philosophy' that saves people from the trouble of 'having to figure most things out on their own'. Clearly you say that unlike all the other ideologies you have used, that it serves some purpose or use; a function if you will. If you aren't advocating that Christian values are functional, then why the apparent contradiction in statements?

gzus:
"Christianity is like an operating system that hasn't been updated or patched for hundreds of years. It is not a great OS anymore."

Socrates:
Then in the context of you statement, Christianity, with some updating here, and some patching there, could become a great 'OS' again. To create a value system that is 'robust' enough to withstand all known threats, and then to upgrade and patch it to withstand other threats that develop in the future seems to be what you are insinuating. So how do you venture to go about this?

gzus:
"China must compete. Anyone or country can choose to compete, or simply refuse to compete and nature will weed them out. These are not Western standards, competition for the privilege to exist is the nature of life."

Socrates:
Darwinism in economy, another unrealistic prediction. Case study the Asian economic crisis and how it spread like an epidemic throughout the global community, or 9-11 and its reverberations. China IS competing to meet the standards of the West for the sake of its economy. But before we let 'nature' 'weed' her out, the West will aid her through her difficulties in the end. For the lesson of both those incidents was that only a healthy global economy can help to insure the security of individual economies within. China plays too important a role in the global economy for the West to sit idly by as she is 'weeded out', it is in the latter's best interests to help the former.

gzus:
"WITHOUT western enlightenment, China will never catch up."

Socrates:
A rather anachronistic observation don't you think? Despite your spirited rant against eastern philosophy China is catching up, and she'll do it before you can finally describe what 'western enlightenment' is to me. I for one doubt the existence of anything that can not be explained accurately.

Socrates
Monday, May 20, 2002 at 02:04:12 (PDT)

To Troubadour,

Within the last ten years, thanks to mitochondria-DNA research, we have finally come to understand how and where we came from. The Biblical story that Eve was fashioned from one of Adam’s ribs is simply false. No archaeological evidence of any kind confirms the existence of Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, or any of the exploits attributed to them in the Bible. “Most Bible scholars and archaeologists have abandoned the question of the Patriachs altogether,” says Bible scholar Ronald Hendel. And nothing in the vast archaeological record of ancient Egypt preserves even a memory of Moses or the liberation of the Israelites from slavery under Pharaoh or any of the other events of the Exodus, most which are nowadays regarded as purely legendary. The Bible and the Torah are simply the greatest fraud perpetrated on humanity.

The concept of Jesus and Christianity is contrary to the American way. Jesus is a dictator who does not believe in democracy and divergent viewpoints. Jesus is against materialism and capitalism, but likes to borrow or receive things and share it communally. Jesus judges and rewards people by their special relationship to him rather than by their good deeds, (which is the definition of corruption!)

Unless Americans undergo a massive cultural and spiritual readjustment to reality, they will become irrelevant and psychotic in the eyes of the rest of the world. It is a myth that man needs spirituality. Chinese President Jiang Zemen is a self-professed atheist even after reading the works of most of the major religions of the world. Yet, he has served his term as President of China for five years with rationality, with decency, and without corruption. How many of your American religious men are going to jail for playing with little boys’ penises? And when will the religious men of this world stop killing each other over their false God?

Science and the laws of nature are a philosophy and a way of life in itself. They answer the questions of who we are and why we are here. They tell us how to take care of our health and protect our environment. When natural disasters occur, we can now quantify exactly why it occur through the sciences and better prepare for it, instead of blaming earthquakes, storms, diseases, draught, famine as being the wrath of God.

Amen!
Sunday, May 19, 2002 at 21:58:51 (PDT)

gzus in NYC,

Your analaysis of China seem to start from 1911. If you go back a little further you will realize why China will not be falling apart anytime soon.

Even if it did fall apart. It will regroup just have history has shown time and time again.

As for Taiwan. It cannot declare independence, that is just a fact. And with the cultural and economic barrier being lifted in both country. Taiwan will reassimilate into China in within our lifetime. Then China will get all the USA weapon technolgy for free.

Once Taiwan is reintergrated with China, China will retake Mongolia because the Gobi dessert is just too dusty and needs more trees. By then Russia will have totally collapsed and too depended on NATO, so China will sell advance military technology Russia to wean them off this dependency.

Not too mention China will find Osma Bin Laden in a neo-fusion-Chinese resturant near the border of Afghanstan and China. They will put a bullet in the back of his head. Then send a bill for 2 mao to the USA. This will spark political mess between the USA and China and the start of WWIII.

Of course ha-zus you have all the answers for China. They are just waiting for the words of wisdoms to drip out of your mouth.

AC dropout
Sunday, May 19, 2002 at 13:59:13 (PDT)

I think the Chinese as a whole are not a good looking bunch, and what is the reason behind all of this?
-Southern Chinese

Simple. Chinese have not been selected for looks over the generations as much as other qualities. With arranged marriages, almost no cheating, very little competition for mates compared to the west, areas where looks matter a lot, the pretty boys didn't make that many babies. Instead, the rich & powerful dudes made a disproportionate number of the children. What is the main requisite for getting rich & powerful? (Not looks, but intellect)

And, oh yea, AC, you miss my points completely. I guess repeating them will do no good.
I could though, singlehandedly deliver a mortal blow to Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddism, all within this post, but it would be lengthy and posts, good or bad, get buried links deep pretty fast.

Suffice to say most Western philosophies are rationally based, whereas those three Eastern philosophies are mostly, wise man says this, you do as told without an in depth explanation why it should be so.

Asia didn't fall behind by accident. Its whole philosophical underpinning was structurally flawed. If you don't understand you can see a mini-example of this in every Chinese immigrant- a major rework of flawed old world values and beliefs must occur in each order for them to successfully adapt to the US.

I rest my case.

P.S.
If you read Plato, Adam Smith, Rand, etc and compare to Asian philosophies you will conclude a person can easily do without the meaningless gibberings that Confucianism, Taoism, & Buddhism essentially are.
gzus in NYC
Sunday, May 19, 2002 at 13:54:10 (PDT)

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