Can China Avoid the Soviet Union's Fate?
(Updated )

he People's Republic of China likes to compare itself with the United States. Both governments were forged to throw off the imperial yoke. Both are amalgams of many races and nationalities. Both are great continental powers capable of harnessing immense resources to promote national agendas around the world.
     Beijing's bosses cite these parallels to justify China's ambition of returning Taiwan to the fold -- forcibly if necessary -- and violently suppressing movements for Tibetan independence, Moslem separatism and religious tolerance. The party line: "In a few decades we will be as prosperous, unified and democratic as you Americans."
     Unfortunately, some observers see closer parallels to the former Soviet Union.
     Founded in 1910 to free Russian peasants from oppressive landowners and a weak imperial government, the Soviet government quickly and ruthlessly expanded into a superpower that rivaled the United States in military might and reach. On top of nearly 300 million citizens of several dozen captive nationalities, the Soviet Union became the puppetmasters of virtually every Eastern European government. By 1989 it was buckling under the burden of superpower competition. In 1991 the communists lost power to the reformist Yeltsin. The Soviet Union broke apart into Russia and a dozen independent republics. Today Russia is a nation of 150 million struggling to build a capitalist economy from the rubble of the communist meltdown.
     Among the Soviets' earliest converts were Mao Tsetung, Zhou Enlai and other young Chinese intellectuals who saw in communism salvation for the Chinese people from western imperialism and internal corruption. Mao's long struggle against Chiang Kaishek and the Kuomingtang would have ended disasterously without the support of dozens of ethnic minorities in northwestern China who believed his promise of ultimate political autonomy. Their help proved more valuable to Mao than the billions in American aid and direct military assistance to Chiang. By 1949 the Kuomingtang had fled to Taiwan and the PRC ruled the mainland.
     Beijing's bosses have been as ruthless as the Soviets in consolidating territory and suppressing separatist movements. But they have been far more successful in creating a functioning economy. They began capitalist reforms in 1979. By 2001 China's economy had become free enough to enter the World Trade Organization. For the past two decades it has grown at an average annual rate of 9%. Few of China's 1.25 billion go hungry and about 125 million enjoy living standards comparable to Malaysia and the Philippines. By some measure China has just surpassed Japan in GDP and will surpass the U.S. by 2025.
     But China's future as a united nation is far from assured.
     Even assuming peaceful reunification with Taiwan and victory over Tibetan separatists, Beijing's leaders face some big hurdles. They must integrate a billion subsistence-level farmers and workers into the consumer economy of the east coast or face ethnic discontent on a scale that would dwarf America's racial strife of the 1960s. Yet burdening the developed regions could breed separatist sentiment in Guangdong, Fujien, Manchuria and other regions. Over 100 languages and dialects are spoken in China. Long-suppressed religious minorities are becoming better organized thanks to the internet and other communications technology.
     Are China's prospects for staying united more like those of the U.S. or of the former Soviet Union? There is a difference between "copying", "plagarism" and "innovation".

The Japanese copy and innovate.
The Japanese are used to basically pioneer new technology and release new styles and fashions.
The Japanese are the beginings of major brands and ideas.

From what I have seen in China, technology is plagarised. Nothing from DVD movies to computers to name bags (Prada) is safe from the Chinese.
While the Japanese have given us brands and innovations, the Chinese have given us culture icons, martial arts/warfare tactics and cultural identity pieces.

As for my statement of technology being plagarised, I don't have to look far to back it up. Simply do a little research on Chinese espionage in Israel and the amount of technology Israel WILLINGLY sells to China. I hate Israel because they rip-off our technology yet,when they design or innovate, they refuse to sell it to us.

Thants just another of example though, of why I'm anti-Israel. They are setting us back by God knows how much with lies and deceit.
Nicholi Servia PHD EMP
   Monday, January 06, 2003 at 08:58:59 (PST)    [211.156.14.186]
Nicky Dicky,

"If I need to see the news, I'll travel thank you."

In general I would agree with you.

But you're a retard. I think you would benefit greatly from reading insights and summaries from people who are your betters in life. For example crediable journalist.

I think by reading more international current events it would make your unwanted stay in China more tolerable.

I hope you're wearing a mask when you ride your 50 cc putput in China. The gas fumes are probably causing you brain damage, which would explain a lot.
AC Dropout
   Monday, January 06, 2003 at 08:33:01 (PST)    [24.136.115.189]
oops revolutionary dies = revolutionary days.
Bataar
   Monday, January 06, 2003 at 05:18:41 (PST)    [141.149.120.62]
China will never, huh? It shames me to know that barbarians like you are alive and walking amongst my people.

I'm all for embracing the Middle Kingdom concept again. CHINA is the center of the world, Americans are the foreigners.

China supporters, understand that when China joins the ranks of advanced nations, when it regains its power and glory and prestige against its enemies, years from now these detractors may *still* be detractors, but they will be old cronies in the shadow of the future - see the vision of the future as now, and see the detractors literally in the shadow, lol

But, get my drift. It is probably very hard to change the ideas of these people - if they change then good, if not, generations from now they will still be so but across these years they will have been non issues, ineffectual, nonsense words thrown to the wind.

FOR those of you pro China, imagine the revolutionary dies at the end of the empire - remember that the dating system was from the founding of the Republic, not of the Western dating - imagine the mind set of the time, it was still Middle Kingdom mindset. Those people loved their country.

I await the time when China is regarded over the USA.

You know this is true, if you have a feel for history at all. But almost all Americans and most people of any kind and any time and place do not.

PS So what if maglev is not considered for US? China has its own culture, and should culture it ^^ They should indeed reembrace the good things of the culture of the past, revive the cool clothing styles and the instruments and customs, etc. China should use the maglev as it will, and in a different and better way, if possible.
Bataar
   Monday, January 06, 2003 at 05:17:51 (PST)    [141.149.120.62]
"Wow, that's our new vocabulary lesson of the day. Anyone who doesn't think China is the greatest thing since Cheese Whiz is whitewashed."

TSJ,
Come on, sure you don’t see your own scat sticking on your ass, wouldn’t it be easier for you if you just admit how much you hate people who say nice things about China? Why deny that you simply hate China and the Chinese and that secretly, you wish to bleach yourself white and get rid of every DNA which makes you Chinese anyway?

Okay, let’s be fair. It’s okay if you admire and think highly of the West. Everybody knows that America has one of the highest living standards in the world, which makes it such a great nation. But what really disgust me most, is the way you ridicule every single progress and achievement which happens in China. Most of your posts carry the same china-bashing tone, “Well, it’s nothing…China is inferior no matter what it does and comes out with, Chinese are an inferior people who doesn’t deserve the credit, blah blah blah” Yes, you think every effort China makes is laughable. And then, you compare China’s success with the West’s, trying to make everybody see how “meagre” these achievement are.Then,you’ll go like “No, I’m no whitewashed self hater, blah blah blah”…Cut the crappy drama, It is just too obvious. If you don’t consider your attitude as “whitewashed” and “self-hating”, there is no other more exact word in the world which could describe it so perfectly well.
Shanghainese
   Sunday, January 05, 2003 at 23:42:14 (PST)    [210.187.156.207]
Another sign of progress: China will attempt manned spaceflight later this year. Amazing for a poor agrarian country which was in disarray less than 25 years ago. 2002 was another year of 8% GDP growth despite the lackluster economies of Western nations - internal growth is now driving China's development, a very good sign. Export driven growth is fine when the developed world is growing, but maintaining GDP expansion during hard economic times in the First World is a true sign of a sustainable independent economy.

Maglev train in China? Next thing you know, China will claim to have more baccalaureate college graduates per year in hard sciences than the entire graduating class of US college students. ;)

It is possible to argue that the sun does not shine when it is broad daylight, but one look out the window puts those arguments to rest. Similarly, one can read all the xenophobic ranting and China-bashing spewed on Internet boards, but one look at China's accomplishments dispels any semblance of veracity to these mumblings.

There's a book titled "The Rise of China" by William Overholt which is a very good read. Published in 1993, it pretty much predicted the massive economic growth over the past decade and foresees even greater things to come. The meltdown of SE Asian economies in 1998 was not predicted by Overholt, but China seems to have been shielded from the currency crises and if anything, has benefited by taking away export industries from Southeast Asian "tigers". Very insightful and applicable even today.

What is truly "ludacris" [sic} are the claims of people who claim to have earned a doctorate when their vocabulary, diction, grammar, spelling and fund of knowledge all proclaim "Community College" to the world. It is easy for the learned to feign ignorance. As we have seen, the reverse is much more difficult.
Yeah Right
   Sunday, January 05, 2003 at 23:28:15 (PST)    [68.53.7.96]
First of all, no one here is "anti-China." I am just speaking from the heart. I do not make up stuff unlike *ahem* some people here *cough* AC *cough* just to win the argument. I would like China to succeed just as much as the next man. However, since we are in a forum of "debate," has anyone ever heard of the "devil's advocate?" Since AC seems to love CNN so much, have you ever heard of the show, "Crossfire?" If playing the part of Juan Williams (is he still on?) is your definition of a bigot, sellout banana, well I guess I'm the biggest bigot in the world then.

Here's this guy, AC, who makes all these cocamamy claims like it's the last word, or as they say in Chinese, "saint mouth," and all I am doing is shooting him down. If anyone can find any post of mine that says "China sucks," "I'm not proud of being Chinese," or "I worship whitey," please, by all means, post it up. I never denied China has made tremendous progress, and will continue to do so. I have said that China is not nearly as great as many claim.

AC, who time after time has said that China is not the US, and does not desire to be, continually uses a China/US comparison. Why do you keep using the US as an example if China has no desire to emulate the US? This is just his idea of bashing this great nation.

Also, just because I am proud to be American, it doesn't mean that I hate China. Furthermore, there is a HUGE difference between being proud of being Chinese, the culture; and supporting China, the country. America is often hated by other nations, but hate is based on envy. You cannot hate without ever having loved. I have said on many occassion that when I went back to China, girls could smell my red, white, and blue blood from a mile away, and they were very nice to me. There is my Shanghai trip report somewhere on this site. I think it's under "Your True Stories." We had this discussion awhile back in here, so I don’t want to dwell on it any longer.

At the risk of sounding like a pathetic loser, and no offense to Nicholi, but AC and I have been on this site duking it out for months. How can I be Nicholi’s kiss ass when I was here first?

There are MUCH better examples of Chinese progress than the GERMAN designed Maglev or the FRENCH designed Pudong airport. All I am saying that this alone is not proof to anyone that China is doing well. So, how many Chinese do live in Pudong, AC? How many natives really benefit from this train? Also, the new Pudong airport was not created as a new airport to replace the old one. The old airport is used for domestic flights (including HK), while Pudong is for international. SO, AC, besides that miniscule amount of wealthy international business men you keep bringing up, how many Chinese are flying overseas? Now, I didn't take any formal polls or anything, but when I was at Pudong airport, the majority of the people were NOT FROM CHINA (not including the employees). Yes, there was a fair share of Chinese, but overseas Chinese, like us.

Come to think of it, isn't this just solidifying the notion that Shanghai has really never been a Chinese city, and never will be? The only thing Chinese about Shanghai is the people living there.

For every momentous construction project, there are a bunch of flops. Why don't you mention the imitation Disneyland in Beijing that now sits abandoned because they ran out of money to complete it? Talk about your haunted carnival now, this place is just rotting away. It's on the way to The Great Wall if you ever want to see it.

For anyone who has seen the anime, "Spirited Away," doesn't that dirty river god remind you of the filthy Shanghai bund? It must have been Miyazaki’s inspiration for that scene. That has got to be the most disgusting body of water I have ever seen. It makes Santa Monica Pier look like Evian drinking water. If the water in the Bay Area ever got that bad, someone would get shot.

Oh yeah, one more thing... these past two months, I have seen more Shanghainese business men looking to buy a house in the Bay Area than the past two years combined (I have only worked in the biz for a couple years). And please don’t tell me they want to do business in the US or want a vacation home. The bottom line is people still want to leave China, and will at first opportunity. Many who made money bolt the country in pursuit of a better life elsewhere. All of these clients plan on becoming residents of the US, and some even had daughters they hoped to marry in US for the green card (unfortunately for me, none of them were all that great looking).

For all you Americans in here, living comfortably in your nice, cush homes, I ask you this. Would you trade your life here, and just pick and up and go to China right now? I didn't think so.

Oh hey, AC. How about those Giants?! Haha… Niners caught you slipping this week, and the Raiders will whoop your Jets next week! No more chance for a Subway Bowl, but the Bay Bridge Bowl is on!

Haha… “Ludacris.” That’s funny. Nicholi just wanted all you to know about his hoes in different area codes in China. “I’ve got hoes, I’ve got hoes… in different area codes, area codes.” That’s a hip hop classic, off the Rush Hour 2 soundtrack. Hehe… so there is a Chinese connection in that. It’s cool because the city where I saw the finest girls, Wuxi, has a similar area code (0510) to me (510).
TSJ
Eric@KristinKreuk.net    Sunday, January 05, 2003 at 21:18:56 (PST)    [67.116.230.23]
TSJ,

Bill Cosby also wrote,
"You're like school on Sunday...No Class"

NYC has a lot of foreigner and is literally built and run by foriegners. What is your point? Is NYC consider any less of a city because of this fact.

Actually whitewash in your case is that you are unable to see the argument from the Chinese side, since you have no frame of reference.

Even those who fled HK in 97 have begun to go back, they've seen being an immigrant in Austrailia, Canada, USA was not really all that it was cracked up to be.

Only those Taiwanese who believe USA will fully back Taiwan are the sorry whitewashed ones.

China has taken advantage of technology that we have not. That is the what the Maglev represent. They have figured out how to make it work finacially and technologically. They were able to sucessfully manage the project to completion. I don't really expect a peon like you to understand the skill necessary to complete a project of this size. How many housing developments have to managed from start to finish?

You want to see messed up look at Taiwan's train system that tried to use European contractors in Taipei.
AC Dropout
   Sunday, January 05, 2003 at 17:29:16 (PST)    [208.59.247.9]
Nick the Dick,

(212) 330 7409

Remember Ed Li sent you and Falun Gong is good. They will transfer you to me and I'll arrange for better housing for you.

"China is just trying to be better than America without understanding what makes America what it is. They will never succeed in being better than the USA."

Is this where you paranoia stems from. China is not trying to be better than the USA. It has no interest in attacking the USA. It is still a developing nation.

Look at history in the last 100 years which country has China attacked unprovoked. On the flip side how many countries have the USA attacked unprovoked in the last 100 years.

Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

I did not think it was necessary to say the Maglev was developed in Germany. I thought it was common knowledge that Europe was the only place that did R&D on commercial application of Magnetic Trains. Maybe I do take for granted the my propensity for aquiring esoteric knowledge at times.

Also those foriegners in China are the same as these: The Chinese labor that help build the US train line. The Chinese that help fuel Silicon Valley during the .com bubble. The Chinese that help design the Vietnam memorial. The Chinese that help pioneer heart transplant. The Chinese that made major break through in AIDS research and made man of the year.

Unlike you, my knowledge is quite broad. Can you handle the significance of the Chinese in USA development.

Let's examine the flip side. While I contribute to the USA through my corporate tax and fuel the economy here with profits from China in the last 3 quarters. What have you been doing. Hiding in China, not paying any USA tax. You're no different than those expat who hid in Canada.

Honestly, what significant social contribution have you made in your lifetime. Do you even think in these terms? These are the benchmarks my peers use to measure their accomplishments in life.

How many people have you employed? To give them the finances to survive in society.

How many people have you mentored? To impart knowledge gleaned in life.

Do you have the vision and foresight to positively affect your own life? Not to even mention to ability to effect the direction of an corporate organization or a nation.

We operate on different levels in life, Nick. I hope you are aware of that now, when you ride your 50cc putput in China thinking you can out run the Maglev.
AC Dropout
   Sunday, January 05, 2003 at 17:16:55 (PST)    [208.59.247.9]
Like it or not, the China Men are rising, albeit a gradual process! Let's not forget, Chinese are the only Asian that has and will build Empire. Just like America, we are just looking for regional domination. We have learn our lessons and we don't want to be bully around anymore. Hence we strive to be the Beast of the East. Since America believes in "Checks and Balance" in their system of government, why should there be only one empire on this planet.

May the best and brightest be the China Men!
ChinaManRising
ChinaManRising@yahoo.com    Sunday, January 05, 2003 at 12:09:18 (PST)    [209.246.83.53]
If you hate China so much why don't you just look for a job in another place.
Christine

....Christine?
are you still here?
Nicholi Servia PHD EMP
   Sunday, January 05, 2003 at 10:15:27 (PST)    [211.156.8.223]

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