Can China Avoid the Soviet Union's Fate?
(Updated )

he People's Republic of China likes to compare itself with the United States. Both governments were forged to throw off the imperial yoke. Both are amalgams of many races and nationalities. Both are great continental powers capable of harnessing immense resources to promote national agendas around the world.
     Beijing's bosses cite these parallels to justify China's ambition of returning Taiwan to the fold -- forcibly if necessary -- and violently suppressing movements for Tibetan independence, Moslem separatism and religious tolerance. The party line: "In a few decades we will be as prosperous, unified and democratic as you Americans."
     Unfortunately, some observers see closer parallels to the former Soviet Union.
     Founded in 1910 to free Russian peasants from oppressive landowners and a weak imperial government, the Soviet government quickly and ruthlessly expanded into a superpower that rivaled the United States in military might and reach. On top of nearly 300 million citizens of several dozen captive nationalities, the Soviet Union became the puppetmasters of virtually every Eastern European government. By 1989 it was buckling under the burden of superpower competition. In 1991 the communists lost power to the reformist Yeltsin. The Soviet Union broke apart into Russia and a dozen independent republics. Today Russia is a nation of 150 million struggling to build a capitalist economy from the rubble of the communist meltdown.
     Among the Soviets' earliest converts were Mao Tsetung, Zhou Enlai and other young Chinese intellectuals who saw in communism salvation for the Chinese people from western imperialism and internal corruption. Mao's long struggle against Chiang Kaishek and the Kuomingtang would have ended disasterously without the support of dozens of ethnic minorities in northwestern China who believed his promise of ultimate political autonomy. Their help proved more valuable to Mao than the billions in American aid and direct military assistance to Chiang. By 1949 the Kuomingtang had fled to Taiwan and the PRC ruled the mainland.
     Beijing's bosses have been as ruthless as the Soviets in consolidating territory and suppressing separatist movements. But they have been far more successful in creating a functioning economy. They began capitalist reforms in 1979. By 2001 China's economy had become free enough to enter the World Trade Organization. For the past two decades it has grown at an average annual rate of 9%. Few of China's 1.25 billion go hungry and about 125 million enjoy living standards comparable to Malaysia and the Philippines. By some measure China has just surpassed Japan in GDP and will surpass the U.S. by 2025.
     But China's future as a united nation is far from assured.
     Even assuming peaceful reunification with Taiwan and victory over Tibetan separatists, Beijing's leaders face some big hurdles. They must integrate a billion subsistence-level farmers and workers into the consumer economy of the east coast or face ethnic discontent on a scale that would dwarf America's racial strife of the 1960s. Yet burdening the developed regions could breed separatist sentiment in Guangdong, Fujien, Manchuria and other regions. Over 100 languages and dialects are spoken in China. Long-suppressed religious minorities are becoming better organized thanks to the internet and other communications technology.
     Are China's prospects for staying united more like those of the U.S. or of the former Soviet Union? TSJ:

"My disrespect for other Chinese besides Cantonese is true to an extent. Honestly, I don't think all Chinese should even be considered the same race. Far northerners are nothing near southerners."

So...you are Canotonese..? No wonder...
Cantonese are the most unsophisticated group of Chinese...they came here on boats and seem to have trouble keeping Chinatowns clean...
I define you and your Cantonese counterparts as the cause for all the negative stereotypes about the Chinese...just think about it...

I find it ironic that you dare to show disrespect to other Chinese who are obviously your intellectual superior...
Ever noticed how most Beijingers that come here to the US are students...unlike the Cantonese who come here with the objective to serve me dim-sum...?

"The reason I point out negativity is because it's so easy to just pat each other on the back, and say how great things are, when there are other things beneath the surface we really don't see."

Do not speak as if your negativity towards China is for the sake of being objective...what do you even know about China...? So...what "beneath the surface things" have you informed us about...hm..? I cannot recall a single comment from you regarding the real weaknesses of China...
You favorite subject seems to be how girls looked uglier in certain locations than others...how the Chinese in China spoke less English than you did..(hm...:)and how you did not see any Chinese driving nice cars but rather rode on dirty scooters like Nick's...Lol...these are hardly subtle "under the surface" observations...

TSJ...tell me about the systematic errors of China and maybe I will join you...
Cixi....
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 19:45:41 (PST)    [67.241.61.43]
<>
Christine

--apparetly you can't read. Go back to my first post and familiarize yourself with my claims. I move around teaching and training.

----------------------------

And apparently you have trouble remembering what you claim as your background, Nick. On another board ("Pros and Cons of Working in Asia"), you wrote the following:

"I live an work in different parts of Asia. The NSA of America set me up with three homes...Currently, I work in Shanghai, China as a teacher in Fudan University. On occasion I teach Physics in Tsinghua. Lately I have been developing an electromagnetic projectile cannon to be built in America. I get payed to travel and study the local languages. To date, I speak Serbo-Croatian, Spanish, Chinese and South Korean. [Monday, December 09, 2002 at 03:33:58]

So just what is it about Christine's comment that is so inaccurate? You did claim to work for the NSA (and somehow manage to get "payed" more than even the director of the NSA does! By the way, it's "paid" and not "payed".). And you claimed you teach at Fudan. Oh, and just to remind you once again, Nickie, you've never once provided me with any answers about the numerous holes I've pointed out in your claims (the U.S.S. Seawolf, your claim of getting a college degree from a military high school, etc etc).

In case you feel inclined to rush off and find some more insults in Serbian on the web that you can toss my way, let me spare you the trouble of having to do a Yahoo search for that particular website you found the last time. It's http://www.insults.net/html/swear/serbian.html.

By the way, Nickie boy, here's a quick lesson for you: nowadays, people in Serbia don't use insults like "The Saint Ilija f***s you" or "The Pope f***s you" (both of which you used in your last message to me). Those are outdated phrases that reflect a different era. It's like hearing an inhabitant of modern day Dublin say "Faith and begorrah, the Saint Patrick f***s you." Extremely quaint and extremely silly in this day and age. But then, since the extent of your Serbian comes from a webpage of insults, you couldn't possibly know that.
Since you continue to insist on touting your many "accomplishments", I'll put the challenge to you again: tell us what university you got your so-called Ph.D from. If the university's alumni office confirms that a Nicholi Servia received his degree from that school, I will publicly admit on this board that I was wrong. But frankly, it won't ever come to that because you'll never be able to provide us with such a university.
Doubting Thomas
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 15:17:08 (PST)    [143.183.121.3]
China is no world power,

I think you need another history course. You mouth is lead you to your own delustional mindset. Need to reset that mind of yours, can you do that for everyone on this board.......Anyway I don't think your smart enough to know any history or is it that your head in empty, it's all air......

Chinese people beat Christopher Columbus in discovering America in the year 1422. Also remember, it is the Chinese people who invented the Map that were use by first European explorer in their navagation around the world. Chinese were the one who had the largest naval two thousand years ago. That is how they invented the first map. They did this by using thousands of ships at different angles.
China Discovery
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 14:43:52 (PST)    [24.239.152.113]
It is my opinion that China is an up and coming super power. It's amazing how a country that was literally a 4th world nation twenty years ago have been able get up and develop so quickly. Even under communism, China has been able to develop faster than other third world nations under democracies. Not attacking democracy of course, in fact, I believe that this is the next step China must take to achieve her goal of super power status. Destroy corruption once and for all and adopt democracy. In all seriousness, communism in China is dying. I think even the communist leaders in China realize that capitalism is going to triumph. Capitalism is triumphing more and more by the day, in fact, it would not be an exaggeration to say that Capitalistic reform is what brought about China's quick development. Don't get me wrong, this is hardly the roaring twenties for China but it is getting there by economic recovery. Another factor that led to her economic development would of course be the Overseas Chinese. The FDI going into China over the last decade from Overseas Chinese equal nearly half a trillion. Wealthy Overseas Chinese from Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Southeast Asia, and North America have been prosperous in their adopted lands and have done everything in their power to help their native country of origin. This shows that Chinese people are a very proud group of people who love and cherish their native homeland and culture. So to all those that doubt China, watch out the Middle Kingdom is on the rise and it will eventually be a force to reckoned with. How long is really uncertain but it will happen in the future
Northwestern 2007
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 12:57:35 (PST)    [138.23.59.135]
Latest reports from mainland China indicates elaborate, ambitious and far-reaching plans for space technology and utilization.

There are strong indicators that the Chinese have drawn up plans for their own space station. Given the ineffective bureaucracy and budget overruns associated with the International Space Station, it seems more and more likely that China will overtake the lead in space in the next decade.

If and when the Chinese Space Station becomes reality, the moon and even Mars will suddenly become reachable goals.

Perhaps the first human on Mars will be a Chinese taikonaut. That would be very interesting indeed.

To: "China is no world power"

You need to grow a brain so you can figure out when someone is speaking in a tongue-in-cheek fashion. You are acting like a nerd who doesn't get a joke that everyone else gets.

To: Eric

You wrote:

"Beautifully spoken by someone with a Mandarin surname (most likely Taiwanese). Like I have said a million times, Cantonese don't give a crap what Taiwanese think about us."

Okay, here are some anti-Cantonese bits to balance out your idiotic Cantonese supremacism:

Quite a few Hong Kong people say they don't give a crap what others think, because they are often looked at as lower class and criticized for being generally short, round-faced, unattractive, materialistic, greedy, rude, and totally lacking in social refinements. Perhaps these criticisms hit too close to home.

A Hong Kong girl I know once proclaimed, "Long live colonialism!" Maybe she and bananas like Eric still long for the days when they can live under British rule, kiss up to Whites, and play the role of de facto second class citizens.

I've been to your home town, Eric. It's dirty and crowded and not that impressive. While there are many good people in Hong Kong just as there are everywhere else, in general the Cantonese people are some of the least soft-spoken and considerate in the world. They don't give a second thought to yelling into their cellular phone or each other's ears in an elevator or on the bus.

If you hail from this lowly merchant class so sorely lacking in social graces, that would explain a lot.

Keep telling yourself that you don't give a crap what others think. Your denial won't change the truth.

Loser.
Phil Chen
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 12:14:59 (PST)    [207.214.44.147]
Nicholi Servia PHD EMP,

("the Chinese pilot got exactly what he deserved. Our plane was still 60 Miles off the Chinese coast when this happened. That stupid **** screwed with us and now he is 6 feet under.")

do you have any decency left in you?

go project your negativity elsewhere, and go ask your parents what type of things you are unwelcomed to say on a asian website.

i imagine that you might be encountering some discrimination in shanghai right now, which is why you feel the need to release your frustration on the internet through china bashing. the funniest most ironic thing is that you think you are such an advocate for america, perhaps when you come back to the ghettos where you are from you will recall how this beloved country of yours still view you as second-class. it is actually quit amusing listening to you speak as if america and you are the same entity.

just like christine said, if you dislike china so much, then why don't take you and your scooter back to the ghettos america or whereever else you might have originated from? i guarantee you that no one in china will be begging you to stay.

TSJ,

"when there are other things beneath the surface we really don't see"

whatever. all this time that you have been bashing china and the chinese, i have never heard you say anything that was halfway worthwhile. i enjoy bashing china too, but i never degrade my fellow chinese. i have never seen you criticize china's lack of human rights, and i have never sense discontent from you regarding china's policies and other type of things that are really worth criticizing about china. you are even more pathetic than your hero(nick).
common sense
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 11:30:12 (PST)    [165.138.26.223]
--China got beat up because her government is weak and allowed others to carve herself up.---

China got beat up because they never invaded anyone. They believe in peace and was later bully by other country who has greedy heart. Kinda like yourself.. who is greedy and always wants to be right.
idiot
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 09:32:58 (PST)    [24.239.152.113]
TSJ,

Perhaps to someone from the USA China is a homogenous nation. But that is far from the truth. Okay you watch a lot of Chinese TV. What is the first thing you see when you see a government sponsored event. All 58 ethnic groups dancing and singing like Las Vagas show girls.

Hell when you go from one city to another in China. What language to you usually hear? It is definitely not mandarin. It is whatever local dialect is there.

China has been dealing with ethnic issues for thousands of years. USA only 200 plus years. That is why China can be extremely civil when approached by foriegners when they want to be. USA is still in the "white is right" mode.

Look rich people in China are going all over the place. I just recently hired a rich kid from Heilong Jiang province in NYC. His family immigrated to CA recently.

He is what is called the first wave immigrant. The smartest and most resourceful usually end up here first in any group. This kid is a trust fund baby, so I have no idea why he is even working. But he a smart kid so he has a place in my firm for now.

But on the flip side I also know of a lot of well to do business people in the generation above mine, who have gone back to China to contribute back to China. And live what they see to be the "good life" as well in China.

I've even bought property oversea. But it more of a convenience for myself when I travel.

And I have mentioned it before, outside the USA, one can buy prestige and status with money. Here in the USA we are more "classless," you can say "F.U., get off my lawn" to the president of the USA and people wouldn't blink. So there are some questioning of this "good life" you are talking about.

So if the good life is economic growth, stability, and not feeling like a minority. I guess China has the good life. If the good life is being the target of terrorist, importing our IQ and R&D, listening to the fork tongue white man define my plight and eventual equality. Well I guess the USA is the place to be.

"So, you are saying that some Chinese guy who doesn't speak a lick of Chinese, but thinks the nation of China is hot stuff is less whitewashed than me?"

Not to put you down. But Henry Kissenger is probably more Chinese than you, and he's one of the worst war-mongering Jews who was in a leadership position in our government. However, his predictions of the eventual rise of China all the way back in the 70's have been proven correct. He was also correct in point out that we the USA would need to engage PRC and distance ourselve from the ROC politically. I guess vietnam and korea taught him the hard way about China, during his gung ho days.

*** note gung ho is a Chinese term, which our USA military loves to use incorrectly.

And another thing. China is hot stuff. That is a fact, not opinion, and not something pulled out of Nick's ass.
AC Dropout
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 09:21:00 (PST)    [24.136.115.189]
--Honestly, I don't think all Chinese should even be considered the same race.-----

Well everyone else think your the same race. Are you stupid, do you know what race is? Asain is a whole race all together. If you happen to be lost somewhere in the state, who would people of other race defined you. o0o he's asian with dark hair, kinda skinny and looks like he's really lost and he's kinda dumb too. They not gonna say.. o0o, I think he is from the northern park of china/ or japanese, chinese, tawainese or whatever. Do you get my point race is asian. And everyone see you as the same, including asians themselves.
You lack in common sense.
Azn- with Pride, at least
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 09:14:04 (PST)    [24.239.152.113]
"Yes China invented everything except trains, planes, cars, rockets, telescopes, tires, telephones, radios, television, electricity, atomic energy, computers, and fax machines."

uh to correct you, we did invent rockets (no not the metal plated, hightech ones you see on TV), which were first used hundreds of years ago in war and I guess celebrations. The rockect technology of Germans in WWII and later the Americans and Russians were a direct expansion of this.

We also invented rubber, and hence tires.

And computers is a direct expansion of the earliest computer, the abacus. Also, the guy who invented the binary code (that is the language of computers) was directly influenced by the Yin/Yang principle of Taoism.

Not that it matters...but just to let you know before you get a lttle ahead of yourself and start assuming.
another voice
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 09:07:42 (PST)    [68.9.169.159]
China is no world power,

China is a world power, if not it wouldn't be one of the member in the U.N. You lack in history so much, did you fail all you history course or something. Did you even know what U.N stands for?

-----Yes China invented everything except trains, planes, cars, rockets, telescopes, tires, telephones, radios, television, electricity, atomic energy, computers, and fax machines. You know the toys that make some of our lives a little more useful? -------

How are you so sure China never invented any of these. Does this information come from your delusional empty head. Look China now has a space ship that can go to space and come back safely. How many country in this world can do that......tell me? China provided the foundation for all the invention you listed above. China only believe in peace that is why it never invaded any country in it's past. But other country like Britian, for example did, they invaded many parts of the world. And you know how they did so, with the first invention of gun powder made by the Chinese.

And guess who has the largest naval 2000 years ago? Answer China..... Guess who found the United States of America? Answer.. Christopher Columbus? NOPE, A Chinese man.
Youneed a historycourse
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 08:54:58 (PST)    [24.239.152.113]
China is no world power,

Only when I post to Nick. Commenting on my flippant comments to resident section 8.

Yes but where do all those Fortune 500 companies need to expand to remain Fortune 500. China. So in the end China will still have her say, even in the economic areana. Not to mention the latest report of the richest people under 30, a disportional amount of them are from China.

"trains, planes, cars, rockets, telescopes, tires, telephones, radios, television, electricity, atomic energy, computers, and fax machines"

These things were not invented by the USA. Only the Telephone is a pure American invention. Optics is Chinese as is Combustion. Modern vehicles is mostly Europe as is atomic energy. Fax is Japanese.

So China government is now stronger, there is no coalition of 8 nations trying to beat her up now.

The change is happening.

Any hello China is too a world power. It has a seat in the UN. It can push us around when it needs space. You're one of the reasons USA is on a decline. You are underestimating China.
AC Dropout
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 08:44:01 (PST)    [24.136.115.189]
I'm actually beginning to doubt Nick's location. I'm beginning to think he is using a proxy.

Any time you doubt Nick's location, dial
086-021-6510-8420
Nicholi Servia PHD EMP
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 08:22:32 (PST)    [211.156.11.14]
China is no world power

woooooooooooooo, where did this guy come from? I'm not sure who you are but, keep on telling it !
Nicholi Servia PHD EMP
   Wednesday, January 08, 2003 at 08:20:05 (PST)    [211.156.11.14]
"It really more like this. China invented everything."

::::YAWN:::: Yes China invented everything except trains, planes, cars, rockets, telescopes, tires, telephones, radios, television, electricity, atomic energy, computers, and fax machines. You know the toys that make some of our lives a little more useful?

"The west wanted everything and beat up China."

China got beat up because her government is weak and allowed others to carve herself up.

"But don't worry the Chinese control the Jews.Jews just love everything Chinese.It's genetically programmed into them."

HAHAHA yes those Jews in Hollywood are controlled by Chinese. Those Fortune 500 companies started by Jews are all owned by Chinese. Sorry but just because alotta Jews like eating greasy cheap Chinese take outs does not mean they have power over them. Your idea of power must be one delusional concept.
China is no world power
   Tuesday, January 07, 2003 at 17:55:50 (PST)    [138.23.59.136]
Now look on the flip side, when a major terrible event happens in China, does the USA government give any large significant gift to China. When the USA shot a missle at a Chinese embassy, did the USA build a memorial for China. How about the spy plane incident?

----First of all, it was a GBU that destroyed the embassy, not a missle.
We don't have o do anything more than apologize for that incident and secondly, as I stated before, the Chinese pilot got exactly what he deserved. Our plane was still 60 Miles off the Chinese coast when this happened. That stupid **** screwed with us and now he is 6 feet under. (actually his body is missing)

Nicholi, I thought you were a secret government agent when you first introduced yourself here, and now you teach at Fudan University?
Christine

--apparetly you can't read. Go back to my first post and familiarize yourself with my claims. I move around teaching and training. On Jan 20th I have to go to Japan for a workshop and then on Jan 25th I have to go to Taiwan.
Why, don't you just cut the act cause I'm really not interested.
Nicholi Servia PHD EMP
   Tuesday, January 07, 2003 at 16:59:23 (PST)    [211.156.7.224]
Christine:

Yes, thank you. You are so right. The reason I point out negativity is because it's so easy to just pat each other on the back, and say how great things are, when there are other things beneath the surface we really don't see. Wow, you are good. See, I guess it takes a woman to figure things out instead of all the other testosterone filled swinging sausages up in here.

My disrespect for other Chinese besides Cantonese is true to an extent. Honestly, I don't think all Chinese should even be considered the same race. Far northerners are nothing near southerners. Shanghainese are cool though because they are also considered southerners despite most people thinking of them as northerners. They really are southerners because they are close to Nanjing (southern capital), as opposed to Beijing (nothern capital). Most HK girls I like are actually of Shanghai origin, not Guangdong or Toi San.

Phil:

"you are nothing more than a snotty nerd nobody from Hong Kong in desperate need of class, so get over yourself."

Beautifully spoken by someone with a Mandarin surname (most likely Taiwanese). Like I have said a million times, Cantonese don't give a crap what Taiwanese think about us.

AC:

What's with the name calling, man? I mean, we can have a sensible conversation without the cheap shots now, can we?

About the foreign construction in the US... America is a nation of immigrants. China is not. End of discussion.

As you well know, there are three cities in the US that rank in top 10 of world's most expensive cities, NYC, Bay Area, and Honolulu. Others around the world are Tokyo, HK, and London. Now, why would a guy from China who just wants to invest in some foreign property pick some of the most expensive places on earth? The bottom line is that they want to move there to experience the good life, where they can spend their hard earned cash at will. The Bay Area is a good choice because of the large Chinese population and high tolerance.

I get all those Chinese stations, CCTV, Phoenix, etc. on my bootleg direct TV (it's the Chinese way!). We also get RTHK and HKTVB. I love watching that stuff. They have news in English on CCTV also.

I still don't see where the "twinkie" ideas are coming from. So, you are saying that some Chinese guy who doesn't speak a lick of Chinese, but thinks the nation of China is hot stuff is less whitewashed than me?
TSJ
Eric@KristinKreuk.net    Tuesday, January 07, 2003 at 14:31:07 (PST)    [67.116.231.161]
HEEIEIEI,

China is JAPAN X 5!!!!! ?THINK ABOUT IT.
PLALA
   Tuesday, January 07, 2003 at 13:23:40 (PST)    [131.181.127.42]
Phil Chen,

I actually read a lot about these education system when I was in Taiwan recently. It seems a lot of well to do in Taiwan, that happen to conduct business in China, actually bring their families along so that they can enroll in the Shanghai education systems.

Nick our resident PHD would have problems passing the New York City elementary school testing, let alone a GRE.

I'm actually beginning to doubt Nick's location. I'm beginning to think he is using a proxy.

Actually the general GRE is not that much different than the SAT (before the changes made in mid 90's). Or at least when I took the SAT, I would use the GRE for practice as well. But these kids score perfect on them, that's very impressive.

Also I took my GRE in asia, because I had to schedule it around a vacation. My GRE test had a lot of typos in it. I always wondered if asia get different copies of the test than the USA.
AC Dropout
   Tuesday, January 07, 2003 at 10:30:16 (PST)    [24.136.115.189]
Now the U.S state department accused Boeing and Hughes of passing sensitive space/missle technology to China. Accusation like this always occurs when China accomplished something. Like, recently China accomplished space launch of it's fouth unmanned space ship. Why am I not surprise by these accusation.....

But anyway China dismissed the charges.... and said "the accusation was inconsistent and laughable". I tell you, is always some people in america or somewhere that has some excuse when China does well. Their excuse when ever China succeed in something is that, "You got help, copy, or stole from us". They always have this fear that China will surpass them. They need to get over it...
Tokinut
   Tuesday, January 07, 2003 at 10:01:58 (PST)    [24.239.152.113]
Just some of the things the Chinese invented that made the European Renaissance possible:

Gun powder/cannons/crude guns to make the Europeans invade, massacre, and colonize.

Paper and printing, so the illiterate Europeans could read and write and knowledge themselves up on the latest books translated by the Spanish Moors/Arabs from the old languages into Latin.

Paper money/cheques/banking to fund Columbus' trip and Martin Luther's Reformation printing presses, not to mention Renaissance art, DeVinci, Galileo...

The water clock, which the Europeans did imporve on.

The Compass for them to explore.

Drilling and mining techniques for the Conquestadors to find their precious gold and metals.

Steering technology for Magellan's ships to journey across the globe to kill any "savages" he met

Catographic techniques so the Euros can have their maps

The Arabs were generous enough to offer these things to the Europeans, and in return, they get bombed by the US and chased out of their homes by the Israelis. A good trade.

On the smaller scale, besides the things previously mentioned, we also invented the toilet paper and the umbrella. So, Nicki wont have his ass clean or his nappy or wet-dog Euro hair clean today if not for us chinks.
another voice
   Tuesday, January 07, 2003 at 09:48:57 (PST)    [68.9.169.159]
To: "big deal"

You think America has the highest standard of living in the world.

Sorry, you're wrong.

The United States currently ranks number 6 worldwide in standard of living.

Before you question other people's numbers and facts, make sure you know your own. And if you don't really know what you're talking about, shut up and learn from your betters.
Phil Chen
   Tuesday, January 07, 2003 at 09:31:53 (PST)    [207.214.44.147]

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