The AA Gender Divide: Is It Real? | Asian American Issues

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IS THE AA GENDER DIVIDE REAL?
(Updated Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:05:09 PM)

sian American women are abandoning AA men by the millions. Young AA women seek out any race of men but their own. Women like Amy Tan write books and make movies that dump on AA men and glorify Asian women in relationships with white men.
     That's the perception of many AA men.
     On what do they blame this state of affairs? Brainwashing by media that play up white men while cutting Asian men off at the knees. Desire for payback by AA women who feel slighted by their families and Asian society. Large numbers of non-Asian men with blind fetishes for Asian women. Some even acknowledge that Asian men are often too fixed in their ideas of how a woman should look and behave, causing many AF to feel devalued.
     Other Asian Americans see AF outmarriage rates as merely a natural state of affairs for a 4% minority population that includes many recent immigrants. The outmarriage gender gap will narrow as growing Asian population centers provide ready access to bigger pools of singles. Besides outmarriage is't the same as rejecting one's racial identity, they argue. Many AF who outmarry retain strong identification with their Asian identity.
     Is there really an Asian American gender divide? Is so, what's behind it? If not, what's behind the perception?

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WHAT YOU SAY

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Tell it like it is, Twinkie, Asian American Male and just another view:

8% of white men date 50% Asian American women, while 8% white women date mostly Hispanic and black men. White men and white women ratio here in America are about even. So, it is outright rediculous that white women, especially attractive white women constantly whine and complain about lack of white men. I am now pretty certain that these white women are very racist. True, if the ratio of Asian American men to Asian American women is one (I do not have any statistics) 50% of AA men could be left without prospective brides. However, instead of whining that no white women would date them, why not try looking for brides back in Asia. There are many Asian women who would love to come to the United States. If one million Asian Americans marry brides from Asia, they would also be hastening the browning of America and thus "punish" the white man for taking some of the "best" Asian American women, by hastening the day when whites become a minority in this country. As it stands now they become a minority only in 2050. If Asian Americans and Hispanic Americans decide to marry abroad and bring their brides into this country, we may bring that day forward to 2030...it may be better for all of us.

However, I do agree that there is a lot of intra-Asian prejudice, and I see it on this board as well. Thus, many Asian Americans will not adopt Asian babies (whites adopt 99%), and a Vietnamese American will not marry a Japanese American. They would rather marry whites. Pretty disgusting and pathetic!
A very Disgusted Asian American
Tuesday, January 08, 2002 at 09:41:25 (PST)

I grew up in HK, where the land of handsome asian male and female are dimes a dozen, and positive image of asian males and females can be seen anywhere on billboards and subways, where we have our own groups of asian celebrities to follow; where Tom Cruise would be an afterthought. I am sorry to see what Asians in the US are subjected to in terms of stereotypical portrayal. It's ridiculous to think that asians are mostly good for roles for cooks, gangsters, kung-fu masters and women as sex objects for WM; where in reality majority of us are successful lawyers, doctors, professors, engineers...etc. I hope many of you will have the opportunity to visit asia one day or watch asian films, and realize what a load of crap the US media have on us. As for this AF/WM problem, I believe it stems directly from the media who plays extreme bias and US military presence overseas. But I also believe our AF sisters are smart enough to figure it out and fall for the guy they truly love, be it asian or non-asian. I would also encourage our professionally successful new generation male and female to speak out and stop this absurb idea that we can be stereotyped as such.
concerned AM
Tuesday, January 08, 2002 at 08:40:21 (PST)

To "tell it like it is", I definitely don't agree that "MOST White men are not into Asian women, only a tiny fraction of them." That's not true at all. Basically in this country you can divide all white men into two large groups: Urban (including most suburban) and Rural. The former group of white men are EXPOSED to Asian women, because urban and suburban white men, these days, usually live in rather close proximity to Asian women. In ALMOST EVERY major city of the US, and its suburbs, there are good-sized communities of Asian-Americans. I mean, New York, Boston, Chicago, Washington DC, Minneapolis, Detroit, Dallas, Atlanta, Denver, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, etc, etc, etc. In all these cities and many more, you'll find pretty large AA communities in the urban areas, and also very frequently in the suburbs. Really, there are only a few major US cities where there are relatively small Asian communities. These cities might include San Antonio and El Paso (both in Texas); Phoenix and Tucson (both in Arizona); Miami and Tampa (both in Florida); and some cities in the South like Birmingham (Alabama); Jackson (Mississippi); Charleston (South Carolina), etc. Nowadays, you'd be very hard put to find young, urban or suburban white males who are not exposed to significant numbers of Asian females, whether it's in school (high school or college), in nightclubs, or in the workplace. Asians are ALMOST everywhere these days, at least if you're in most major US cities or the suburbs. And unlike many African-Americans or Hispanics, lots of Asian-American families can actually afford to live in the "nicer" suburbs and send their kids to suburban schools... along with affluent whites. So there's no dearth of contact between young white males and young AA females.

The "other" group of whites is those who live in rural areas and in some of the larger and medium-sized Great Plains and Farm Belt cities which are still almost completely "lily-white". In small towns in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Missouri, Arkansas, Iowa, Indiana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Idaho, etc., you'll see very few Asians. Indeed, you'll see very few of any kind of minority, and that includes blacks and Hispanics. What you'll mainly see is Anglo white folks abounding in huge numbers. These are the proverbial kids who drive pickups, shoot rifles, and listen to Country music on the radio (in those areas, that's ALL they play on the radio! :-)

So, the latter group of white kids is not really exposed to Asian-Americans. Since these young white men aren't exposed to Asian-Americans, they may grow up in an environment where Asians are still seen as "just-off-the-boat" foreigners with a strange and alien culture. In fact if they meet Asian-Americans, they may act weirdly or avoid them, just because they haven't met Asians before. Or they may associate people of Asian origin with foreign governments they don't like or countries they (or their parents) mistrust or fought against in a war. Prejudices in this group of whites may run much deeper than what you would find in the average multiracial urban or suburban school where classrooms are made up of a vast assortment of ethnic groups.

I think many, many white American males find Asian-American women extremely attractive. It has absolutely nothing to do with their so-called "submissive" nature, because if you want to know the truth, the stories I have from my white friends who've dated and had relationships with Asian-American (and even native Asian) women have shown me that they're ANYTHING but submissive, as a group, and in fact they seem to be even stronger, more stubborn (in a good way), more independent, and more assertive than many white women! And believe me, I have heard many stories (though I haven't dated any Asian women myself - my current girlfriend is Greek and I'm NOT here to pick up Asian women!) However, all of the above leads me to have a respect for Asian women (as a group) because it seems the "submissive" stereotypes are nothing but a bunch of outdated and probably never-true B.S.

But I *do* agree with you totally that Asian-American females are entitled to go for the best-looking white men. Society is changing, and more and more, women in the US are empowered to choose the men that THEY prefer, rather than having some male choose them! I think what we're seeing is that young Asian women who were born in this country are finally starting to seek what they want. It doesn't mean they are leaving Asian-American men in droves because there's something "wrong" with Asian men! In fact, my sister has dated a Japanese-American doctor for a long time, and he's a great guy! He treats her better than most of her white boyfriends ever did (even if he's only about 5'6" to her 5'5").

What I saw in the Washington, DC area recently - as I've told you - is that the young Asian females seem to be with better and better looking white guys! And if this is true, more power to those Asian girls!! I saw these young, "exotic"-looking Asian girls with these tall, handsome, blue-eyed Yuppie types everywhere - in bookstores, at cafes on Sunday morning reading the paper and drinking coffee... out at clubs... And you know what? All I thought is that this is great, and how great it is that finally in this country, somebody has succeeded in breaking down barriers and that these Yuppie guys, who are supposedly so arrogant and are always depicted in movies as wanting the blonde, blue-eyed, bouncy (and usually airhead) cheerleader, are now actually finding themselves drawn to something completely different than that "cheerleader" stereotype. And most likely (I'd bet on it) these Asian girls are NOT ditzy airheads, but have Master's Degrees or Ph.D.'s and their own independent minds, too. Maybe they can stand up to and debate their boyfriends from a position of strength! I think all the Asian women out there should know that there are MANY white guys who find AA females incredibly attractive, and would actually pass over a beautiful white girl just because of the "exotic" looks of an Asian woman. It may sound superficial, but hey, part of human attraction is looks, and it's just not true anymore that white guys only want to date blonde cheerleader types, in vast majorities.

DC white dude
Monday, January 07, 2002 at 22:55:26 (PST)

@ "tell it like it is"

There are lots of social barriers to WM going out with AFs. I wouldn't make too much of your 8% statistic, even if it is accurate. Besides, the vast majority of WM don't have much of an opportunity to go out with AFs.

To the rest of you, this constant odd denigration of WM for their purported "Asian fetishes" is puzzling. Is it a "fetish" if a WM is merely especially attracted to AFs, and if so, is anyone's IR attraction a "fetish?" If not, what is the point at which a WM's attraction to AFs crosses the line and becomes a "fetish?" Please be specific.

I've known a lot of WM who were attracted to AFs, yet I've never known one whose attraction could fairly be described as a "fetish." I've never met a WM who was attracted to AFs because he thought they were either docile or submissive or because he thought they were sexually voracious. I think your image of most WM is itself a crude stereotype.

All of the WM I ever met who expressed an attraction to AFs were attracted to an Asian version of the normal "All-American girl": nice, bright, outgoing, and so on. Where do you folks meet these "fetishists," if you really do?
Roger
Monday, January 07, 2002 at 21:01:22 (PST)

A Proud Asian American,

I understand that some Asian parents would actually prefer if their children married white vs. marrying some other hated Asian ethnicity, if they must marry "out" at all. But that doesn't refute my point that marrying white is almost always considered "marrying up." You marry a white person and you are taking a step up in the social ladder, almost never a step down.

And it's not just white per se, but the lighter the skin the better is the mentality engrained in us. I attribute this to centuries of colonial influence where there was a clear division or caste system put in place by the imperialist rulers. Did the concept of race even exist before 1600, i don't know? Anyway, the effect of imperialism has not left us. In Latin America, who are the ideals of beauty? I can tell you that it's not the sons and daughters of mestizos and mulattos. It's the actors/actresses/models that have a lot of European blood and light skin. I've read and heard that many light skinned Latins look down on darker skin Latins. It's no different here in America. Many wealthy minority men marry light skin women or white women. It's almost like a sign that you've made it. (insert theme to the Mary Tyler Moore Show)

Yes, there are certainly millions of poor white people. I never said there wasn't. There are millions of poor white people here in the U.S. too. Just like most people in U.S. penitentiaries are white, not black (like movies/t.v. would have you believe). And there are millions of white people in various European countries bordering on third world status. But it doesn't change anything. As long as the power elite at the top, the few having dominion over the many, the man holding the gun and nightstick (remember South Africa?) is white it doesn't matter.

Asian do in fact have a higher median income than whites and in general, are better educated. This trend will probably continue just as Hispanics and African-Americans are also improving in educational attainment. But i haven't seen a change in the glass ceiling. Who are still over 95% of your CEOs? What race has every American president been? More importantly, this argument transcends race and delves into the very ideas of capitalism, wealth, Western philosophical thought and how it has influenced the way we think and approach life. Put simply, if i'm a wealthy Asian-American and i hob nob at the country club with all my "old money" white friends and could care less about my roots or helping my Asian brothers and sisters then what good am i to The Cause. I would say that there are very few among us who would still be able to cling onto our values and remember where we're from if we spent a lot of time and effort trying to assimilate and learn how to play The Man's game to the point of success. By that point you're probably brainwashed.

Lastly, America may be the most powerful nation in the world and might still be in a hundred years but nothing lasts forever. I'm sure ancient Mesopotamians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans thought they would have it good forever too. If the sun set on the Spanish, French, and British empires who held i don't know how many quarters of the land on this earth what makes you think that it won't happen to America someday?

Sorry for getting off topic with all this sociology/economics/politics stuff. It probably doesn't belong here. Anyway, that's all i'm going to say about this issue.
Valley Chinese Dude
Monday, January 07, 2002 at 17:33:51 (PST)

i, as an asian american woman living in a predominantly white town, go through injustices twice as more than asian men do, such as somewehat similar to that article "An Asian Woman's Burden." yes, i have had asian male friends and went with two asian guyz before, but that was in the past and ended in bad experiences. im cooler with the white and black guyz here cuz there are much more outgoing towards me and stick by me.
here, asian guyz tend to be pickier about girls and pick any white girl to go out with, but look down on an asian girl cuz she aint "high" enuf. i liked alot of asian guyz in school, and they were cool with me for a while, but every now and then they avoid me like im some kind of disease and that white women are the cure. if they are trying to "get back" at us asian women for goin with white guyz so much, then they believe in wrongful stereotypes and rob themselves of an opportunity to know an asian woman. and when I interacially date, boy do they have a mouthful of comments when they dont even try to get with me and many times i was at tears with them "becuase there asian and there supposed to be by my side but there not!"
its not only that, but the prejudice and shit i put up with the stereotypes of an asian woman. i hear stuff like "oh so u dont like asian guyz cuz they got small dicks? thats why u hang out with all these black and white guyz?" and all other racial slurs. as much as i want to prove them i love asian men, how can i when the ones here dont even give a shit and sometimes i wished i didnt like asian men to make this justice system seem fair. im torn between staying true to what i believe, or what is fair. its easier when i have an asian guy by my side especially now.
i lost two asian guyz and although my experiences them are but a good memory now, i still hope to be with an asian guy again. white and black guyz are cool and can be as nice as ever, but only asian guyz understand asianess and what we go through, but i just have a feeling white and black guyz appreciate me better...hopefully my future would prove my expectations differently
Viet Gurl
jayelina@yahoo.com Monday, January 07, 2002 at 16:55:09 (PST)

This is my last post on the subject. I am convinced that a lot of the chatters posting as "asian" or "asian american" men are really asian women with some agenda. To "asian american male": the birth certificates are far more accurate than intermarriage census data. I have not even been able to find IR marriage data that sorts by race. Even if it's out there, it is difficult to find. The live births for LA Co are very easy to find. When I searched based on last names for father and mother's maiden name there were no gender disparities among northeast asians. For those of you who still don't get it: if you search for a baby's parents using the name, say, "Kim", one can search based on father's and mother's maiden name. There is no difference in the number of babies born to fathers with last name "Kim" or mother's maiden name "Kim" where the other parent had a european last name. The same is true for Chinese last names like Wang and Chang. While marriage census figures might be a little inaccurate, people do not lie about their ethnic background or last names on birth certificates. By the way, my sampling of names like Ramirez and Garcia show that less than 5% of Hispanics have children with non Hispanics.This belies the census figures that claim 30% of hispanics in LA Co intermarry with whites. This is laughable on the face of it: since Hispanics and whites are the largest ethnic group by a wide margin in LA with Hispanics outnumbering whites;for that to be true, there wouldn't be any whites left.
For the FOB's who have no clue about the history of this country with regard to blacks and hispanics: a lot of the guys you see with white women are in "pal" type relationships as are a lot of white males with asian women. A lot of asian immigrants are not very good at reading body language of a couple and really don't have a clue as to what is really going on. "Just another view" reveals her naivete by citing high school relationships as some kind of indicator: that is laughable out of hand.
As for the status of asian americans: "AC dropout" has misquoted and radically misinterpreted several of my arguments and observations. I suggest reading comprehension for junior high school students for her. The fact is Japan replaced US as creditor nation in 1985, the first such peaceful transfer of wealth in world history between two disparate cultures. Perhaps I should remind the Koreans and Cantonese out there that Anglos forced the Germans into two wars with trade blockades when the Germans started to rack up significant trade surpluses with the US and Britain. They then enslaved the German people with a debt that could never be repaid which caused the Second WW. Since I know that the Koreans and Cantonese still don't get it, that means the Japanese did something significantly different than anyone else in order for Japan to flip the US over on its back. Today, the US consumer has credit only because the Japanese keep interest rates low which causes capital to flow from Japan to the US. If you have any doubt about this, try to imagine what would happen to the US capital structure if the BOJ allowed interest rates to go to, say, 5%. US would become the next Argentina and would default.
Finally, one point that is critical particularly for Asians living in LA or SF: whether or not intermarriage is politically feasible for asian americans. Whites who run the media are clearly trying to integrate the races at all speed. That they are doing this now and not, say, 50 years ago speaks volumes as to their own perception of white status. That black and hispanic men lust after white women has been the way things worked for the last 500 years in America; that white men lust after asian women on TV is degrading for the white male image. And if Asian men do not go out with white women there are two ways to read that fact: asian men ask out white women but are turned down, or asian men really don't want to go out with white women and don't bother to ask them out. It's clear that asian men are far less likely to ask out white women than black or hispanic men, and there is a very good historical reason for that. In cities like LA and SF in particular, interracial dating rights could not possibly be enforced if the communities had an extremely strong haterd or disgust with that particular behavior. It is really up to asian americans to decide whether or not interracial dating should be tolerated. It is , at the heart of it, a political issue.

energytraderus
Monday, January 07, 2002 at 12:50:20 (PST)

"There is nothing wrong about Asian women having their share of good-looking White men because there are some really beautiful Asian women out there."

But, here in Singapore, many white American women, including many who are pretty complain that Asian women steal "their" men. The other day, a group of white American women gave me grief over this and pointedly said that "your" women steal "our" men..I am of Indian origin, but they included every Asian in this group.

"But MOST White men (especially the best-looking ones) still prefer White women and that is a fact. Let's face it only 8% of White American men are involved in interracial relationships ( in that 8% includes WM/BF, WM/Latina ralationships). MOST White men are not into Asian women only a tiny fraction of them."

But, the issue in America is that over 50% of Asian women prefer white men..several here do as well. Things would not be so bad if the white American women also date other races. But, they dont...and many here have contempt for Asian men and they say that Tamils are "blacker" than African Americans. In fact, several have asked me whether "my kind" is related to Africans.

Tamil
Monday, January 07, 2002 at 12:38:27 (PST)

Just another view:

I don't know any "ultra masculine" hispanic men. Who can they be?
FOP
Monday, January 07, 2002 at 12:31:18 (PST)

Asian American Male,

First of all, I don't agree that White women may prefer to date black or hispanic men over asian men. I think it is rather the other way around. Black men and Hispanic men in general are at the lowest of social-economic ladder in this country. I don't think any suburban college-educated middle class white women may prefer to marry them over Asian men, who are better educated and social-economic better off in general. Secondly, let's lower the number of white women available to us for the sake of arguement. Let's say only 10% is available. Does it sound reasonable to yo? There are still 5 millions white women available to Asian men. Let's say single Asian men that would consider interracial marriages consist of 1/4 of the Asian population. That makes 2.5 millions. So there are still 2 white women for every asian man.

Last but not least, I think most Asian American men have a very negative attitude towards interracial dating. It looks like they back out before they even try. I probably ve dated more white women than most Asian American men. If a FOP like me can ask a white woman out, why can't Asian American men? You need to be confident with yourselves.
FOP
Monday, January 07, 2002 at 12:28:55 (PST)

To Proud Asian American:

Let me respond to your comment on my True Story. You wrote:

"Actually there is an article on this board to that effect. A Vietnamese father would rather have his daughter marry white compared to Japanese or Korean."

My father really did not want me to date or marry a White man. He wanted me to specifically marry someone who was ethnic Vietnamese. My dad grew up in Vietnam and there was a lot of hatred among the older people in his family towards the Chinese (they invaded us many times and there are communities of Ethnic Chinese in Vietnam) and the Japanese (World War II and atrocities committed on the Asian Continent by them.)

However, due to the fact that his family was sponsored to come to the US by a White man and his family, and because he had been friends with the son of a White missionary boy in his youth, he said that my marrying a White man would be preferable to my getting with a Chinese or a Japanese, but NOT BY MUCH.

I did not agree with his some of his preudices on this issue. In fact, I'd already decided when I went to college that I was going to get with Viet or other East Asian American men ONLY. I had no interest in getting with a White guy because I was raised and socialized to believe that Vietnamese guys or most Asian guys were better than any other kind of men out there.

I was always attracted to Asian guys, and though there were some White actors whom I found attractive and had crushes on as a preteen, I still thought that other Asian and Viet guys were better looking.

However, I ended up falling in love with a White guy despite my best intentions to get with a Viet guy. I don't think Matt is better than Viet or other guys because he's White. I think he's better because he is who he is--just Matt.
Denise Huynh
Monday, January 07, 2002 at 11:27:03 (PST)

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