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IS THE AA GENDER DIVIDE REAL?
(Updated Wednesday, Jan 22, 2025, 06:38:55 AM)

sian American women are abandoning AA men by the millions. Young AA women seek out any race of men but their own. Women like Amy Tan write books and make movies that dump on AA men and glorify Asian women in relationships with white men.
     That's the perception of many AA men.
     On what do they blame this state of affairs? Brainwashing by media that play up white men while cutting Asian men off at the knees. Desire for payback by AA women who feel slighted by their families and Asian society. Large numbers of non-Asian men with blind fetishes for Asian women. Some even acknowledge that Asian men are often too fixed in their ideas of how a woman should look and behave, causing many AF to feel devalued.
     Other Asian Americans see AF outmarriage rates as merely a natural state of affairs for a 4% minority population that includes many recent immigrants. The outmarriage gender gap will narrow as growing Asian population centers provide ready access to bigger pools of singles. Besides outmarriage is't the same as rejecting one's racial identity, they argue. Many AF who outmarry retain strong identification with their Asian identity.
     Is there really an Asian American gender divide? Is so, what's behind it? If not, what's behind the perception?

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WHAT YOU SAY

[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
MLK:

"I personally don't think that the white version of Barbie is prettier"
I dont either...but the problem is that AF are buying the white standard of beauty.

"What would help would be to have as many really gorgeous AFs as possible, go out there and stand by their Asian men."
Being gorgeous has nothing to do with this. The 'sell-outs' must overcome their insecurities and self-doubt to see that AM are just as good (if not better) than non-asian males b/c AM intentions (from my personal experience) tend to be more sincere.

"If my parents didn't want me to hold any worthwhile opinions, I simply withheld my tongue and spewed out my thoughts with teachers, siblings and friends who understood."
This IS what most of us do. However, my point is that...being raised in an environment that disregards our opinions contributes to our insecurities. Nevertheless, this is NO excuse for self-hate or hate upon our race. It is our responsibility to find the strength in ourselves.

"If the guys wanted to view me as a sexy exotic object, that was cool too!"
Of course, we all love to be pursued. But when 'sex' is the only motive, it instills in our minds that we not worthy of anything more meaningful. And if the AF have not realized her worth, she's more likely to trap herself in a superficial relationship.

"I also, have been delegated hard tasks from my boss, and I get all stewed about it, and I do the tasks, and I get promoted."
I also have been given promotions and rewards for my hard work. The reason I felt cheated is b/c...regardless of any achievements, I still received less respect than the nonasian male in the same office w/ less credentials. Some things in life are just unfair..but I'm not going to hate everyone b/c of this.

AA Male Perspective:
"There are plenty of good desirable AA women out there. Let's simply ignore those LOSER sell-out bitches!!!"
Agreed. Dont hate and label all AF b/c of certain ignorant people.

Matt:
"Most of my white male friends and asian male friends confirm that a very large percentage (close to half) of the asian women they know or meet do date white men exclusively or a vast majority of the men they date are white."

Has it ever occur to you that your white male friends are attracting people of their own kind...they meet AF "sell-outs" b/c they are one too? Sorry, I cant imagine close to half of the AF population are suffering from severe inferiority complex. Yes, AF do have insecurities, but most of us were strong enough to overcome it. Btw, none of the AF I have befriended are 'sell-outs'...yet, you and your friends have met many...how do you explain that?

Village Idoit:
"men are usually out of the house and it is the women who teach and uphold asian cultural values."
Not true. In the asian culture, women are inferior to men that is why they possess the subserviant title. The mother takes care of the child, but the father disciplines them.

"from all i've seen it is the girls who are praised more so than the boys."
In my family, neither one were praised...we were compared to others frequently, and our parents firmly believed we needed to understand our weakness to be stronger.

"KEEP YOUR OWN FAMILY EXPERIENCES with your family, don't dump your family problems onto the whole asian-american community."
Calm down and breathe...this is only a forum. Are you saying my opinions and life experiences should be dismissed b/c you dont agree with it? Read the messages on this forum CAREFULLY..and you'll realize others have experienced these family issues as well.

"you're relying on media stereotypes to support what you want to believe. i'm not at all surprised at your "geek and wimpy" AM stereotype."
I really hope this is the LAST time I have to repeat myself. I am puzzled to why you are having so much difficulty understanding my intentions. 1) All of my comments have been based on my personal experience and observations. I understand there are negative AA stereotypes, and I never said my beliefs conformed to those stereotypes. 2) I see you’re having a blast putting words in my mouth. I have NEVER said AM are 'geeky' or 'wimpy'. I said AM are typically NONAGGRESSIVE b/c of the asian culture. I do not understand why you keep putting a negative connotation on this term, when it doesn’t deserve one.

“if these are negative and false portrayals of AF, why are you using them to back up your reasons for AF outdating? shouldn't you try to refute them as the bad reasons for WM chasing AF and poor innocent AF brain-washed by the media?.”
I am really sick of repeating myself b/c you are incapable of understanding plain english. It was necessary to mention about WM buying into the media’s bs about AF sexual portrayal b/c THIS is this is one of the main reasons for the increasing AF/WM relationships...WM are pursuing AF. And what’s this about the “poor innocent AF brain-washed by the media?...do yourself a favor by releasing yourself of the 'AF basher' title and explain.

“instead, you're relying on them in your arguement as if you were proud of them.”
Oh, yes...you are right, I forgot I was “proud” of being seen as a piece of ass. That’s why I had mentioned in my last post that WM who perceived AF this way contributes to our insecurities...thanks for reminding me how “proud” I am of having insecurities. And that’s also why I had mentioned AF enjoyed being pursued, but when we the truth is revealed (some WM possessing only sexual pursuits) it can be a huge insult to AF...I completely forgot that I am “proud” of being insulted.

“you're just an AM basher, now what does that solve?”
I hate having to ask for more references (not your opinion of me, but EXACT quotes from my previous comments)...b/c I am CLUELESS to what makes me an “AM basher.” I recall saying a lot of positive things about AM...I even recall telling AM that they are NOT hopeless...b/c the biggest advantage they have over other males is the fact that they share the same culture and similar struggles as an AF, therefore the bond that develops between AF and AM is effortless...and this type of understanding is the basis of a lasting relationship.

“i for one am trying to make amends”
You have a very interesting approach of 'making amends'-- by misconstruing all my intentions to making me sound like a 'hater'? The gender dividing is a major problem...and I am on this forum to explore those reasons...NOT to entertain myself by bashing any group (as some do). If you truly want to 'make amends'...stop your conniving attempts of misinterpreting my intentions!

AC Dropout:
"You make it sound as if your parents and their male dominant views victimized you. And that USA mainstream view liberated you."

To be honest with you, I did felt unworthy growing up in my family, and you are correct...I do prefer to be treated as someone who has a voice and matters in this society. However, over the years I have come to realize that I am VERY fortunate to be asian and raised in america...b/c I can assimilate the values of each culture, and determine for myself which morals and values I should comply to. There are many principles about the asian culture that I admire and respect, but I dont agree with them all. Likewise with the american culture.

"However, what that has to do 40% AF seeking WM in marriage I am still not clear."
It has everything to do it. I described the issues I had dealt with growing up as an AF so you all can understand how it is easy for AF to be insecure. As I have mentioned many times before, being 'insecure' IS a lame excuse for any type of hatred. However, if we want to eliminate this problem, we have to begin from the root...which is understanding why so many AF have insecurity issues. I also have to say, many of us have overcome our insecurites...but unfortunately, still too many have not...and this (including the many factors that have contributed to AF insecurities) is the reason for the gender dividing and the high outmarriage rate.
be
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 23:46:06 (PST)
Matt Richardson:

"4) AM takes dating more seriously, therefore they are not as aggressive."

This is stereotyping all asian males, saying they take dating more seriously. Again, are you including american-born asian men in this? If so, what you sya makes no sense since their values are generally just as americanized as the average american-born asian woman."

My eperience with AMs so far tell me AMs on average tend to be shy and not aggressive in pursuing women. Yes, even with American-born asian men. All stereotypes contain truth. Just being american born, it does not mean you are like a white guy when it comes to dating. A lot comes from how you are raised, and I know lots of asian parents discourage their kids dating until college. It is no big deal for AFs, since guys ask women out, but for AMs, you are a few years behind men of other races when it comes to wooing women.
Jay
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 22:57:29 (PST)
"My only reply to your stupidity is this..Do AM takes dating more seriously than WM? Are AM not as agressive as WM?"

"once again, you're relying on media stereotypes to support what you want to believe. i'm not at all surprised at your "geek and wimpy" AM stereotype. we AM take BOTH dating seriously and are agressive at it."

AMs on average are not aggressive when it comes to chasing women. Go to any bars near US colleges. You rarely see AMs in those bars. Lots of AFs tell me even at asian parties, most AMs just stand there instead of hitting on women. Most AFs I know tell me that they rarely get hit on by AMs. i think we tend to take dating more seriously. As a result, AMs don't ask for dates as often. I think this is the main reason for interraical disparity.
NHB
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 22:46:26 (PST)
This is in response to "Ahankara":

You said:
"I DO dislike being labeled as "European-American" or white or white female. Once a person labels you, they immediately begin assuming things about you."

So please answer these questions for me:

1. why do you dislike being labeled white?

2. do you dislike being labeled female? if so, why?

3. do you dislike being labeled democrat/republican? If so, why?

4. do you dislike being labeled christian/buddhist/agnostic/atheist (by your religion)? If so, why?

5. do you dislike being labeled by your major in college becase people may have negative preconceived notions of what certain majors are like? Why or why not?

Say you've just come here from ireland- when people hear your accent, they are going to ask where you're from and find out you are irish. Would you dislike this because negative stereotypes exist against irish people (with respect to alcohol consumption)? I think that is absurd, don't you? Why not stand up and be proud of what you are instead of letting peoples' stereotypes make you want to hide?

Matt Richardson
meme0114@yahoo.com    Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 22:14:41 (PST)
In response to my post about Asian women wanting to alter their features (eye shape, eye color, nose) and how I view this as self-hatred, many people have responded with the same sort of post so I will summarize my response here.

In response to MY statement:
""say you have black skin and you think it makes you ugly so you bleach your skin and do everything you can to make your skin fair. Are you going to find a person with dark skin attractive? I DON'T THINK SO. Why is this so hard to comprehend?""

"elizabeth, uk [not trying to be white but this is merely my name], aka s.vietnamese girl who reckons ppl should quit chattin out of ass" said:
"It's so hard to comprehend because it's not true. It may apply to ur twisted version of logic but still, its not true. I'm stuck for eg's now that TH Lien took the 'man breast' one, but i doubt i'll make my point any clearer. "

and she added:
"Like i said before, girls nowadays are pressured into being thin etc, and having cosmetic surgery on the eye is just another form of insecurity..."


"be" said:
"Let's look at in another way. Some AF may dislike their small eyes...at the same time, some WF dislike their big thighs. Is it fair to say one is 'self-hating' while the other is not? Afterall, they both dislike their features enough to go under the knife. Aren't both women simply trying to achieve beauty? "

I find both of your arguments to be inherently flawed because the examples you give are not ethnic-specific. You are giving examples that could be applied to ANY race-- fat women who are trying to lose weight, or men with breasts who are trying to reduce them could be white, asian, black, or any other race.
On the other hand, ethnic-specific features like eyes with the epicanthic fold ("asian eyes") are pretty much exclusive to asians and not whites. The asian nose (flat and wide with no bridge) is also found almost exclusively on asians. Both of these things are exclusively common to the asian ethnicity. Having large thighs, and male breasts are not characteristics specific to any one ethnicity. Just because some overweight white women may be trying to lose weight doesn't mean they are trying to "look asian" because weight is not an ethnic feature. There are fat and thin women in every race, and a majority of white women are not fat. However, as explained earlier, asian eyes and the asian nose are just that: almost exclusively asian (you may find eyes with the epicanthic fold among a few whites, but they are a tiny minority of all white people, whereas the feature is very common among asians). So getting eyelid surgery to remove the epicanthic fold is altering a characteristic that is UNIQUE to Asian people. This is why I believe it is an issue of racial self-hatred. Again, if asian women find asian eyes to be unattractive, then will they find men with that feature attractive? NO. You can bring up all the gender-specific features you want, but they do not challenge my argument because they are not ethnhic-specific features.

Matt Richardson
meme0114@yahoo.com    Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 22:06:57 (PST)
In response to V-Chick:

The 40% stat comes from http://www.census.gov

just look through the marriage stats by race and you'll find it.
Matt Richardson
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 21:48:17 (PST)
This is in response to "villageidiot":

You say that I seem to know too much about Asian issues to be white. Once again stereotyping white men as being generally ignorant of anything non-white. You don't know anything about me or my exposure or involvement with other asians, so why do you make such ignorant assumptions? Prove to me you are asian.

Even though you didn't ask me, I will tell you about my knowledge of asians: I went to school at UCLA, which has a tremendous asian population. I have dated several asian women in my life, and I have many, many asian friends (male and female). I lived in China for a full year in between undergrad and grad school. In addition, my workplace is full of asians (I'd say almost 40% of the people I work with) and I have close friendships with many asian colleagues (both male and female). I've commonly encountered these attitudes among asians and my friendships are very open so I have questioned my asian friends about this in groups, which has led to many interesting discussions.

My father is a professor of sociology and some of his basic questioning of human behavior in groups has rubbed off on me. I'm very curious about the attitudes I've encountered and I think most other white people are too "PC" to question these things they so obviously see. I am doing so, and I would appreciate it if you would not make such baseless accusations in the future.
Matt Richardson
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 21:47:25 (PST)
about the percentages and number thing, isn't that exactly why percentages are used and not numbers? to theoretically level the playing field...less subjective..to say 40% of AF outmarry is a much stronger and valuable stat than 'x'

there is a lot of talk about AF bashing/hating blahblah...for me it is not AF bashing or hating, but rather that I have so much love for AF that it hurts to see them being objectified the way they are, while they seemingly feel proud, unaware, or simply dont care..its just sad

AM
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 19:53:20 (PST)
Matt Richardson,

Can you give me the SPECIFIC link rather then just directions to the census site. I'd like to see the exact statistics that you are refering to. After that I'd be more then happy to offer my rebuttal to your point. If you are refering to the statistics I think you are...I believe you may have been reading them wrong.

whatever Matt
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 19:15:18 (PST)
"be,"

"If you dont like me to be so cruel, then dont be like that with me"

i for one think it's for the better at least the name-calling have stopped... and i don't what you're refering to being clever, and i don't take credit because neither your or i know the other, so this internet thing doesn't mean much in the real world.


"you have misinterpreted all my intentions"

and you know "it takes two to tango" so if i'm not copying correctly, it might be you're not transmitting properly.

as always, the old alcoholics anonymous saying holds true, the first step to solving any problem is to realize the problem exists. so "be," at least you're ahead of the other AF who doesn't even recognize there's a problem.

i really don't want to argue this any further if other AM can say the same things better than i.

i do know when some AM are being unfair as well and are bashing AM, but you have to take it up with them. to my knowledge i've not engaged in AF bashing, i've always merely said that AF should stop with the animosity toward AM as elizabeth and some other AF are demonstrating. the AM who are engaged in AF bashing should stop as well, but i'm not responsible for their actions so so take it out on them.

peace out.
villageidiot
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 15:10:16 (PST)
"to the asn guys out there, don't make stupidass assumptions that if an asian girl doesnt wanna go out with u its cos ur asian. Sure it may be the case sometimes, but have u ever considered the fact that it may be down to u as a person..?[the truth hurts right?]"

hmmm, well, lets see could it be lots and lots of AM are all the same way such that AF don't want to date AM? neglecting the 40% (or whatever) stats, why is it so many AF reject so many AM? and in this day and age, why don't the females ask the guys out and show interest?

i'll save you the excuses about not being asked out by AM and that's why some AF date WM, because in this day and age with "women's liberation," girls can just as well ask guys out.
villageidiot
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 15:03:03 (PST)
just some points to clarify the issues here. these are generic and for people to keep in mind, so don't call me an idiot on this one.

remember mark tawin's old adage: there are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies and statistics. basically we can argue about numbers all day and have a zillion ways to interpret them, but it does get to the heart of the matter, which is by as a demographic, asians have the highest outmarriage rates with its women than ANY OTHER group? this is a very significant trend to try to understand because of the small asian-american population compared to other "minorities" and yet no other ethnicities have these same PERCENTAGES.

secondly, i feel the wisdom of john stuart mills on reasoning applies here. beware of the common pitfall to apply labels and then thinking you've udnerstood something because you can name it. this is a very common mistake, giving something a name/label doesn't mean we understand it.
villageidiot
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 14:42:34 (PST)
Hannybunbun,

"Any insights into this? Please be sincere as I am truly wanting to learn. Is this all about "white" and western culture being a popular standard for beauty?"

I guess it might all depends on the person ... every time my grandmother come over, she would ask, "why don't you go find yourself a white girl to marry?" (she thinks whites look better than Asian ...) and every time my mom heard that she always say "what's so good looking about white girls? ... go find yourself a nice Asian girl." My grandfather and father don't seem to have an opinion about this ... typical Asians :-) So I think my grandmother is like your husband's family who thinks white is the standard of beauty, while my mother is not. But I don't really know why ... never bother to ask.


To the Topic:

I don't have much to contribute. I go a college where almost everyone is white -- and over 70% of them are blonde (women only, don't really look at the guys :-) So I don't notice any kind of divide or much of the issues that's talk about on this web site -- I still find many of the posts interesting nonetheless. If there is such attitude from some AFs, then I would probably just let them go ... I don't think it's worth the time or effort to convince them otherwise. If they only want to date/marry WMs, that's their prerogative. It will only leave the better AFs for AMs :-) Why do I need to "win back their hearts and mind" when their "hearts" are not desirable to begin with? I am only giving an opinion base on the posts here ... not from personal experience.

ohwell
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 13:56:52 (PST)
Gregory: The heart and mind has to want to be won over.

YS:

AM are less likely to outmarry because we choose to stay with AF. My bro has tons of WF friends (some he has dated) but he went waaay out of his way to get his current one (AF). My cousin used to have 1 race for each day of the week but in the end he stuck with AF.

Take import auto shows. AMs always look for AF models first.

Elizabeth: You haven't even lived yet. Do not write to me until you have something other than insults to voice.

If these cookie cutter type AF aren't aren't self haters, then explain why the "subtle" tweaks here and there. You know, kind of giving themselves the appearance they might be 1/2. Why don't they go all out and do an M.J.? I'm Chinese and I don't feel the need to get my eyes/nose/hair "fixed".

Since my last post didn't make it on here. Let me repeat. All my opinions are directed at N.American AF because I only know them.

The difference is that the AF who is genuine has 1 white boyfriend for 5 years, not 5 in 1 year. It seems too many are the latter.

Yes, I am very ignorant. I am Chinese and my last girlfriend East Indian. You don't know how much China/India hate each other do you?

It'd be a lot easier for you if I were "your" stereotypical AM who can't get a date huh? Sorry to disappoint you. By the way, I eat out. All the cheap crap I've seen out there has turned me off home cooking.

Wang:

Your assumption is that AF is evenly distributed (w/o bias) among all non-AM. Your crunching is an average.

Be:

It'd be easier to do things if we had a little help. AF outmarrying isn't exactly helping Asian interests over here. I have yet to meet a 1/2 (who was fortunate enough to have a white dad) who can speak anything other than English or French. These mom's didn't deem it beneficiary to make their kids bilingual.

Unless you're pulling your own weight, do not tell me that I'm not working hard enough.

H-Town:

It sounds like AF/WM is just as mainstream as AF/AM. Let me guess, WF/non-WM is a no-no?
huu76
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 12:31:41 (PST)
"First, a simple question: where did you get your statistic that 40% of lebanese women marry white men? I'll tell you where I got mine: www.census.gov."

Try the census of 1920, which was used to shut down non-northern european immigration to this country. You need to go to a library that has some old books. I found mine at the Louisiana State University during a visit there.

"I don't believe the census separates lebanese from other races (I see white, hispanic, black, asian/pacific-islander). Please use FACTS in your arguments."

Typically dumb way of doing things...Lebanese are considered white and are not eligible for Affirmitive Action, but the whiter Urugayan female is considered minority and is elibile. Dumb American census classification mean nothing to the rest of the world. Hispanic is an American invention while the concept of race is an American and European discovery.

Asian Male
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 11:52:23 (PST)
I saw a site once that had marriage statistics for AA, also breaking down how many Asian men marry White women versus Asian women marrying White men--by ethnicity. Interestingly, it would appear that whoever people are or aren't dating, there is no longer that much of a gap in who is marrying whites vs. Asians (Unless you're Filipino).
Ahankara
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 11:34:18 (PST)
I have no desire to claim that AF do/don't have unique issues to deal with. I just want to point out clearly what's been touched on several times now: Is wanting to change one's appearance self-hating? If so, then thousands upon thousands of white girls hate themselves. And maybe they do--I think that the idea of getting a new nose just because your old one wasn't "just so" is ludicrous. But it's hardly a strictly racial issue. Poor self-esteem has been recognised for years now as quite a problem amongst the female population, and I see no reason why this problem should stop at the race line. And yelling at a person online to shape up is almost certainly not going to help. What more people need to realize is that "standards of beauty" are ridiculous in the first place. Agreed...the vast majority of AFs can never live up to the white beauty standard. But please don't forget that the vast majority of WHITE girls also can never live up to it.
Ahankara
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 11:10:28 (PST)
i used to think that the supposed inferiority complex that asian women have was a concept created by asian men as an excuse for their own shortcomings. i thought this way because i have no inferiority complex--but now i am meeting more and more asian girls that do.

these girls have always been my friends--i guess my eyes were shut to their insecurities or maybe they have changed a little now that they are in the working world. one girl has a white fetish--i mean, it's cool to be interested in good-looking white guys--but for the white guys that she is attracted to, i'm convinced that their main appeal to her is that they are white. cause they're isn't very much else to them. this is fine, i guess, but what bothers me the most about here now is that she has lost her interest in asian guys--*and* she stereotypes. vietnamese guys are dirty, chinese guys are fobby, korean guys are arrogant, and so forth.

what i'm going to put forth now is very mean, i know--but i think there is some truth in it. for girls out there that are like her and have this inferiority complex, i think part of the reason why they turn to white guys and shun asian guys is because they were shunned by asian guys first. these are the girls who never have a good time at asian clubs--because asian guys won't hit on them. by enlarging their dating pool to include white guys, esp. dorky white guys, at least they'll get asked out. cause you know what--i think dorky asian guys have higher standards in asian girls that dorky white guys. just a thought, i'm not sure.

anyhow, not all asian females are like this, and for the ones that are, let's not be so hard on them. what do you want them to do--fall back to going to only asian clubs or hanging out with only asian friends in which cases they won't get any attention?
penelope
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 10:45:22 (PST)
to AA Male Perspective,

Wooowww...you really do have a humongos chip on yer shoulders, don'tcha? :)

Here's my tip for ya to win over the +60% (and somebody's gotta prove to me that this BS 40-60 number is real because I haven't seen evidence of it anywhere) of AFs who are loyal to their AM brothers.

Be cool, stay loose, and don't look at all women through the same red-tinted lenses that leave you shaking and weak in the knees with sick anger and jealousy. It just might be that you're not getting your share of the true-blue ladies because they can sense your animosity from a mile away and they are staying the hell away from you just to be on the safe side of the bull's horns. After all, who would know better the strength and fury of an angry raging maniac Asian man than the women who love them? Sounds reasonable, eh?
MLK
   Sunday, March 24, 2002 at 08:51:33 (PST)

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