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GOLDSEA |
ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
IS THE AA GENDER DIVIDE REAL?
(Updated
Wednesday, Jan 22, 2025, 06:38:55 AM)
sian American women are abandoning AA men by the millions. Young AA women seek out any race of men but their own. Women like Amy Tan write books and make movies that dump on AA men and glorify Asian women in relationships with white men.
That's the perception of many AA men.
On what do they blame this state of affairs? Brainwashing by media that play up white men while cutting Asian men off at the knees. Desire for payback by AA women who feel slighted by their families and Asian society. Large numbers of non-Asian men with blind fetishes for Asian women. Some even acknowledge that Asian men are often too fixed in their ideas of how a woman should look and behave, causing many AF to feel devalued.
Other Asian Americans see AF outmarriage rates as merely a natural state of affairs for a 4% minority population that includes many recent immigrants. The outmarriage gender gap will narrow as growing Asian population centers provide ready access to bigger pools of singles. Besides outmarriage is't the same as rejecting one's racial identity, they argue. Many AF who outmarry retain strong identification with their Asian identity.
Is there really an Asian American gender divide? Is so, what's behind it? If not, what's behind the perception?
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Discussions posted during the past year remain available for browsing.
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
The gender divide is being blown out of proportion to the point where every AF is seen as hostile towards AMs. I've never met an AF who rejected AMs nor expressed any antagonistic sentiments towards AMs. Of course, that doesn't mean those types of AFs don't exist. From what I've seen of numerous AF/WM couples and AFs in general, I think they are quite rare.
On the other hand, AMs who get upset have issues of their own. For example, I was walking with a WM colleague of mine after lunch when we encountered three Asian males heading toward us. They might have been gangster types. I wasn't sure. They were verbally abusive and I felt physically threatened. I couldn't understand what they were saying but there was no mistaking their hostile behavior and who it was directed towards: me. The AMs thought my co-worker was my boyfriend. They kept walking next to us and it seems like they were trying to shove me. My WM co-worker is 6'4 and muscular. If provoked, he could have easily and single-handedly beaten those three scrawny runts to a pulp. Due to the crowds, he didn't notice what was happening. I didn't want to ruin a pleasant walk in great weather so I didn't say anything.
On another occasion several years ago, I was in a hotel lobby with one of several Asian friends on vacation. My AF friend and I were targets of a group of AMs who rushed passed by us and called us whores because we happened to be talking to a WM about the various sights to see. He was merely a helpful stranger with whom we struck up a conversation. Those AMs came by so close I thought they were going to knock my friend down. The AMs all had fat faces, and were wearing muscle tank tops. Their clothing was absurd since they were 5'4 or shorter and were ridiculously muscle bound and squat. I bring up their physical description to point out that these little busters (or meatballs as the AMs in my group later called them) should look to themselves and their inferiority complexes before judging others.
I witnessed the same type of hostility towards an AF while I was sitting in a mall food court. Some AMs were making fun of an AF who was with a WM at a table a couple of rows down. They were saying how ugly she was. The irony was that she was pretty and the AMs quite unattractive (to put it mildly) and their weird chortling sounds made them look worse. Anyway, I saw her hug the WM goodbye. The heckling got louder and more hostile. I guess the WM's handsome looks and physique made them even more jealous. Seconds later, an AM arrived with a baby in a stroller and a toddler in tow. He shook hands with the departing WM and joined the AF who picked up the baby. The AM was her husband. The AMs bothering the AF suddenly grew quiet and just stared (possibly in shame)?
I wonder if violence or harassment is to be expected every time an AF is seen with a WM. It's unfortunate when people stoke anger over AFs' dating habits by exaggerating the gender divide to the point of fiction. I hope these isolated instances are just that, isolated and not symptomatic of a larger problem within the AM population. It's a cause for concern since violence is usually rooted in anger. I hope WM/AF relationships or what are perceived to be as such are not used to encourage or justify abusive behavior or violence. The last thing we need is another problem facing AAs in this country.
concerned AF married to an AM
Tuesday, March 26, 2002 at 06:29:39 (PST)
penelope,
"i think part of the reason why they turn to white guys and shun asian guys is because they were shunned by asian guys first."
That's a false statement if I've ever heard one. Your saying that AF are turning away from AM because AM aren't giving us enough attention. How does that explain our identity crisis? Are you telling me that AM completely neglect AF? I doubt that's the case.
This is only my story but I'm sure that it would not be uncommon to find what has happened to me in other AF.
After doing a lot of soul searching I believe I've come up with an answer as to why I used to date whites. When you've grown up in a prodominately WASP community such as I have, fitting in and being the same is extremely important when your young. When your a teenager and your one of only 5 asians in a school of 1600 students you tend to stick out a little bit and who wants to stick out at that age? At that age we all want to be the same as our friends and peers (dress the same, talk to the same, date the same). I tried to fit in as much as I could and one of the things I did was to only consider going out with whites. The more I tried the more I could feel it becoming a losing battle because no matter what I couldn't change who I was and be like everyone else. As a result I became depressed and hated my asian identity. I know it sounds stupid but that's how I felt. It took me years to get through my depression. Nowadays my outlook on life is quite different as well as my dating preferences.
If I could offer some advice. It would be to seriously sit down and talk to your friend as to why she feels the way she does and how she sees herself. It took me a very long time to understand why I felt the way I did.
I love being Asian
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 20:30:48 (PST)
Actually the rate of AM marrying WF are starting to catch up to WM/AF marriages.
So in the long run it will even out so stop the hype. Don't let the media fool you, we are smarter than that.
Stop the hype
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 20:15:09 (PST)
villageidiot,
"asians have the highest outmarriage rates with its women than ANY OTHER group? this is a very significant trend to try to understand because of the small asian-american population compared to other "minorities" and yet no other ethnicities have these same PERCENTAGES"
First off, there is NO credible statistics to justify this. Where did you get this? Is this something that you've picked up from some of the other posts? Do you yourself have a source to backup your statement? If you can't back this up then it's merely and OPINION!
whatever Matt
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 19:50:18 (PST)
be,
"Sorry, I cant imagine close to half of the AF population are suffering from severe inferiority complex. Yes, AF do have insecurities, but most of us were strong enough to overcome it."
I'm in total agreement with you. It is my belief that a number of the people who have posted on this board have taken a completely alarmist stance on this very subject. The postings of these individuals clearly reflect an inflated sense of divide between AM and AF.
whatever Matt
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 19:31:38 (PST)
and "be," once again another round?
"I am really sick of repeating myself b/c you are incapable of understanding plain english."
this is funny, because that college education soon to be accredited by my college says otherwise about my reading skills. and of course we can compare SAT/GRE/etc etc etc tests all day about this. my english reading skills are just fine for somebody who reads the NY Times almost daily. perhaps your writing skills should be questioned here? but this is just going back and forth arguing over gramar, and as i said i'm not here to debate who can read or not. at least i'm being coherent enough to compel you to respond...
"In the asian culture, women are inferior to men that is why they possess the subserviant title."
i'm not going to say "ass," but where are you getting this from? i refer you to before women's liberation in the united states alone and can you say women were treated any better? the traditional asian values are country, family and then self. and as you know in ALL patriarchial societies, men govern the society aspect (although there were chinese women as empress, and not to forget the last emperor's old lady), men were expected to uphold country while women were expected to uphold family. AGAIN, this is OLD COUNTRY family values. in the US all i've seen is at least equal treatment of children, if not the AF getting praised over the AM.
as for your own family experience, of course it's cultural and specific to first generation asian families. but i wasn't referring to within families. between mothers and grandmothers and the male relatives as well, usually asian girls are praised for their obedience and excellence in school. usually the parents always tell their children, why can't you be like this and this asian kid (for the most part girls) who do so well and listen so much better?
and finally for the last time on this as well, unless the flame war continues still. some AF i've seen are proud and bought into the media stereotype. from those i've seen going out with WM, it is nothing less than living up to the lucy liu image that gets them with WM in the first place. if the media portrays AF in one way, then can at least refute it by not being so "easy" with WM. just as we AM are not letting the "geek" image put us down, why can't AF refute the geisha girl image? but all i've seen so far with AF in the AF/WM is the geisha girl. you should see some of the disgusting giggling and flaunting of their sexuality. AGAIN, stereotypes don't have to be true, but there are certain AF who perpetuate it. so maybe you "be" so take your grievances with them AF instead of us AM.
and since this is again one more day behind i'll wait to see if the next message got any more "creative" play on the pseudonym "villageidiot" before i'll respond with equal name calling. and if you got a short term memory go back and read end of february and beginning of march. it's there so don't deny it.
villageidiot
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 18:46:32 (PST)
"AMs on average are not aggressive when it comes to chasing women. Go to any bars near US colleges. You rarely see AMs in those bars."
and if you like the drunken bar scene where hooking up is your idea of a good dating experience, then you're sadly mistaken aobut us AM. this is exactly the "white-washed" mentality i was refering to in a earlier post. you think hooking up in bars and don't even know the names of the person next to you the morning-after is being aggressive? boy, and i thought only certain some people were brainwashed by the media. but if getting hit on by frat boys and looked at like a piece of meat is what you AF prefer, that's your choice. though you'd be hard luck to know anything else about subtlety in the art of wooing.
"Most AFs I know tell me that they rarely get hit on by AMs."
for the same reason as said above, "hitting on women" is hardly our thing. we AM like to take things in more subtle ways if the girl REALLY interests us. we AM probably don't like to play mind games most of the time so we don't come on "strongly" in the "booty-call!" behavior. but if an AM is interested in you and if the AF gives positive response, then you'd never known what it's like to be pursued by an AM.
the difficult thing is that we AM need more motivation because of frequent rejections. again this is the chicken and the egg thing because rejection makes us ask girls out less, and thus makes girls think we aren't interested, and the cycle continues till we don't know which is which. again the girls have control of the relationship. if the girl says no, what can a guy do? so if AF genuinely like AM, then smile more and don't put us down like we hear so often from AF.
villageidiot
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 18:25:51 (PST)
matt, dude (so i assume), chill man. you know how things are with the internet and identities being so easily masked. my concern was that the WM who i see dating AF are usually very little interested in the AM part of the equation. from every day encounters it appears that they could careless since AF are already going out with them so why bother to ask about AM. we AM are mostly looked upon as non-existent anyhow. so it's rather interesting to have a WM aware of these issues, but i tend to be skeptical of everything on the internet.
as i'll probably repeat to whenever i get bored or actually have a real life after getting out of school, some of us AM don't care about the AF/WM pairings. i only wish the recognition that this trend exists by the AF who engage in such behaviors and to not give lame excuses to back up their dating preferences.
again, it's good some non-asian people are starting to see this. i even had a black friend asking me what's up with the AF/WM thing on my campus (mind you, "the south"). i kind of didn't want to participate in the first place on this board, but first roger and then this "be" got me ticked off. but i disgress and should go play some more counter-strike.
peace.
villageidiot
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 18:15:14 (PST)
To: Asian men
Have you ever wondered why this forum is full of negativity? Have you ever looked around and actually seen Asian couples that are happy? Sometimes I wonder if what is written here is really representative of reality.
At Goldsea, I see many Asian men bash Asian women. And of course, I see a lot of the same the other way around. I can easily jump on the bandwagon about how unfair I feel that Asian women who innately have a problem with themselves try to find validation by dating non-Asian men, yet at the same time make us the scapegoats by saying their reason is due to us being unmanly, nerdy, gangsters, etc. If I do that, however, I’m executing the innocent along with the guilty. As we all know, and all must acknowledge, not all Asian women are like that.
I dated an Asian woman who needed that kind of validation. She was my introduction to and my lesson on the Asian Gender Divide. I’m not sure if I can ever trust an Asian woman enough to date one. Sure, there are good ones out there, so this must be my problem. At least I’m man about it to not scapegoat all Asian women being [fill in the blanks whatever is convenient].
Why do I hold back? Why don’t I just let it all roll out? See, if you’re an Asian man, whatever you do or say reflect upon other Asian men. Ask yourself – do you really believe that all Asian women are, for a lack of a better term, “sell-outs”? The Asian women who “wrong” us are the ones who negatively reflect on those who are dear to us for the simple fact that they are Asian women. So how important it is that you watch what you do and say is how important you consider the image of the Asian man. In the eyes of those who are not Asian men, you are the face of all Asian men at that point in time; right then and there, you represent the rest of us. It is the duty of each of us to make all of us proud of being Asian men.
I see three choices related to the attitudes we can take on this issue:
1. Condemn Asian women.
2. Embrace Asian women.
3. Stick our heads in the sand.
We are Asian men. We have a lot to be proud of – our sense of responsibility, family, justice, honor, just to name a few. As we are such and not ostriches, may I safely strike out #3? So we’re left with options one or two. Let me pose a scenario: you have five friends and five enemies lock in a gas chamber. Would you gas them all or would you set them all free? Likewise, should your attitude embrace or condemn Asian women?
In the sea of posts by Asian men who boasts of their blonde, brunette, redhead, purplehead, etc. girlfriends, I believe many Asian men still want to be with an Asian woman who is willing to stand by him. Even if you do not see an Asian woman being in your life, what you do and what you say will hurt or help our fellow Asian brothers who do.
Regarding the Asian women who step on us: remember this, my Asian Brothers – those Asian women do not deny us; they merely deny themselves of us.
Repost
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 16:57:29 (PST)
This must be one of the most interesting, eye-opening and productive thread about the AA Gender Divide in a while. And that's saying something, since I've been visiting Goldsea for amost 3 years now! I hope this goes on... keep it up people!
Jake
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 14:45:34 (PST)
to Be
"...The 'sell-outs' must overcome their insecurities and self-doubt to see that AM are just as good..." You cannot control others' actions, only your own. To expect sell-outs to overcome whatever deficiencies you happen to think they possess is futile and a waste of time. My recommendation would be to sell this idea to those already sold. If more of us non-sell-outs really go out there and pitch for our men, eventually, the tide will turn. At least it's more constructive than ranting about it and bashing those who are not with the gameplan. And yes, being gorgeous has everything to do with it. If you feel beautiful, the confidence shows and that attracts the attention of those who wonder where the attraction is in the men you go out with...and with that comes a possible exploration into the unknown...do you understand that roundabout explanation?
"...being raised in an environment that disregards our opinions contributes to our insecurities." If you were raised in the US, this is really not a big issue. Most girls of all races do quite well as far as not being oppressed, with mediaplay, peer-examples, and plenty of outside influences such as teachers, preachers, and family friends. Of course, if you weren't raised in the US and have only recently arrived, then this does not apply to you, in which case, it's still a moot point because why would adolescent insecurities (which all of us encounter regardless of race or gender) instill self-hate in you or your race? .
"...when 'sex' is the only motive, it instills in our minds that we not worthy of anything more meaningful."
I have news for you...at the age of 18, the boys only have one thing on their minds, and that is NOT meaningful conversations with a girl. This changes a little bit (just a tiny little bit) as they mature, but to base your entire self-worth on what the boys think when they see a pretty girl is to disregard all input from other sources much more reliable such as teachers, mentors, and religious leaders who are there to guide you through all this.
"... still received less respect than the nonasian male in the same office w/ less credentials." I have news for you lady...this applies to all races and all genders be it male, female, or other. It's not you personally--white women have the same problem, as do Asians, Blacks and Hispanics. The white male reigns supreme in job securities and monetary rewards. The rest of us just deal with it and find other ways.
Life isn't fair and you just deal with it and go on. You can't blame your lack of success (or whatever it is you are grumbling about) on past experiences or external forces with which you had no control over. Take charge of what you CAN control and change your world one small piece at a time.
Peace sister
MLK
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 11:42:41 (PST)
Matt:
I think you have misunderstood "Ahankara". She said, "Once a person labels you, they immediately begin assuming things about you." I believe she was refering to the destructive power of stereotypes.
When a parent tells a child he is 'stupid', more likely than not..that child will grow up to have poor self-esteem. When society stereotypes blacks as 'poor' or 'felons'...more likely than not, they will have less motivation to be wealthy and educated. When society stereotypes asians as 'smart' and treats us this way...more likely than not, we feel the pressures of meeting the expectations. I'm not saying that these stereotypes controls our perception..we have the power to disprove our 'labels'...but it greatly contributes to our views when you have a large number of society treating one another with this generalizing mindset.
"Why not stand up and be proud of what you are instead of letting peoples' stereotypes make you want to hide?"
I have a better question for you...why should we be held accountable for stereotypes that does not describe us as individuals? We ARE proud of who we are, that is EXACTLY why we do not like stereotypes.
You said..."This is why I believe it is an issue of racial self-hatred...You can bring up all the gender-specific features you want, but they do not challenge my argument because they are not ethnhic-specific features."
Okay, let's talk ETHNIC SPECIFIC as you so desire. It is "ethnic specific" for whites to have pale color skin. Many whites (males and females) desire to look tan...and in some cases, they'll do all they can to be tanned. All black females have hair that can be classified as 'nappy' which is 'ethnic specific'...almost all wear wigs or weaves to conceal their real hair. If your theory holds true...that would makes WM, WF, BF, and AF self-haters. Can you argue against this?
You said, "Again, if asian women find asian eyes to be unattractive, then will they find men with that feature attractive? NO."
How about answering this question...what is more common...a drop-dead gorgeous woman with a devastately handsome man? or a drop-dead gorgeous woman with an extremely wealthy man? Why are there so many cases of beautiful AF with ugly-ass white guys? I think you know where I'm heading here...women are attracted to security...more so than appearance.
Matt, you sound like you have had ALOT of exposure to asians, and the asian culture. This really surprised me...b/c your comments have demonstrated to me that you still have alot more to understand about asians..AF particularly. That's great that many on this forum percieve you as insightful and intelligent...but you have yet to prove to me what you DO understand about AF (other than your 40% statistics...which is not to be blame solely on AF..WM have contributed as well). When a person neglects to answer questions (including the ones I had for you on the last post), it is easy to assume that that person does not have legitimate responses.
Village Idoit:
I said: "you have misinterpreted all my intentions"
You replied: "and you know "it takes two to tango" so if i'm not copying correctly, it might be you're not transmitting properly."
I guess you're the only one I'm 'not transmitting properly' to.
You said, "i've always merely said that AF should stop with the animosity toward AM as elizabeth and some other AF are demonstrating"
I dont recall 'elizabeth' demonstrating any animosity towards AM. She was only defending the AF. But like you said..it takes two to tangle...i guess, you're one of the few she's 'not transmitting properly' to.
be
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 11:38:36 (PST)
"I dont either...but the problem is that AF are buying the white standard of beauty."
And in many countries of the world including Asia white standard of beauty is the norm. Most Miss Indias look like Europeans...fairer skinned East Asians end up representing their country in beauty contests. So far only two countries have been represented in beauty contests by dark skinned Indian women--Trinidad and Tobago and Guyana! Compare Nasma Mohammed's (Miss Trinidad and Tobago)complexion with that of Miss Chopra (Miss India)...the former looks African and the latter looks European. What can one do under those circumstances..when Asian men themselves send a clear signal that ligher the better?
"The 'sell-outs' must overcome their insecurities and self-doubt to see that AM are just as good (if not better) than non-asian males b/c AM intentions (from my personal experience) tend to be more sincere."
Both Asian men and women, here in the US and back in the old countries have to change the attitude.
"I also have been given promotions and rewards for my hard work. The reason I felt cheated is b/c...regardless of any achievements, I still received less respect than the nonasian male in the same office w/ less credentials.'
My experience is that life would be a lot easier if you are an engineer or in the hard sciences. Actually Asians are preferred in engineering and sciences over the whites here in the US, but not necessarily back in Asia, where they generally feel that the whites are better at everything.
"Agreed. Dont hate and label all AF b/c of certain ignorant people."
Plenty of AF in Asia who would like to marry an AM from North America.
"Has it ever occur to you that your white male friends are attracting people of their own kind...they meet AF "sell-outs" b/c they are one too?"
"Not true. In the asian culture, women are inferior to men that is why they possess the subserviant title. The mother takes care of the child, but the father disciplines them."
In India mother takes care of the kid and disciplines them if the kid is a girl. If the kid is a boy the father usually disciplines them. However, in my place. the mother usually discipline all of us.
"I really hope this is the LAST time I have to repeat myself. I am puzzled to why you are having so much difficulty understanding my intentions. 1) All of my comments have been based on my personal experience and observations. I understand there are negative AA stereotypes, and I never said my beliefs conformed to those stereotypes. 2) I see you’re having a blast putting words in my mouth. I have NEVER said AM are 'geeky' or 'wimpy'. I said AM are typically NONAGGRESSIVE b/c of the asian culture. I do not understand why you keep putting a negative connotation on this term, when it doesn’t deserve one."
I think the Asians should stop complaining about media roles an standard of beauty until they stop going to the movies, stop watching Oscars, etc. I told this to my sister yesterday and she really blew her top. If Hollywood stereotypes you, stop seeing American movies. Stop funding them.
"It was necessary to mention about WM buying into the media’s bs about AF sexual portrayal b/c THIS is this is one of the main reasons for the increasing AF/WM relationships...WM are pursuing AF. And what’s this about the “poor innocent AF brain-washed by the media?...do yourself a favor by releasing yourself of the 'AF basher' title and explain."
More AF compared to the WF are engineers and scientists in this country in proportion to their population. But, no one stereotypes this. The reason we have LA Law and not Massachussets Engineering is because the media has to portray AF in an intelligent light compared to WF. 25% of Asian American Females between the ages of 18 and 21 are in engineering schools compared to only 3% of the WF..Obviously the media does not want to stereotype this. Why, the public will not buy a positive intelligent portrait of an AF, whereas the public will buy an "intelligent" portrait of WF in LA Law and by going to the movies the Asians only perpetuate this myth.
"There are many principles about the asian culture that I admire and respect, but I dont agree with them all. Likewise with the american culture."
Actually a large proportion of Asian values inadvertently aids and abets white supremacy.
Agreed!
Indian girl
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 10:19:42 (PST)
So why is no one responding to my statement of for 80 white men out there in usa 1 has an asian wife and for every 5 non white man out there one has a white wife? Is it because the white guys here are offended?
(for calculation see earlier post)
Wang ZhiZhi
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 10:02:59 (PST)
be,
If you believe that a majority of AF insecurities stem from a family life with male dominent views. Then I guess any Latino and any immigrant nuclear family group country a traditional European country, should also have a 40% outmarriage rate in their female population.
I find that arguement to be less than compelling. There must be something more then "foot binding" mentality causing this issue.
AC Dropout
Monday, March 25, 2002 at 08:40:52 (PST)
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