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GOLDSEA |
ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
IS THE AA GENDER DIVIDE REAL?
(Updated
Wednesday, Jan 22, 2025, 06:38:56 AM)
sian American women are abandoning AA men by the millions. Young AA women seek out any race of men but their own. Women like Amy Tan write books and make movies that dump on AA men and glorify Asian women in relationships with white men.
That's the perception of many AA men.
On what do they blame this state of affairs? Brainwashing by media that play up white men while cutting Asian men off at the knees. Desire for payback by AA women who feel slighted by their families and Asian society. Large numbers of non-Asian men with blind fetishes for Asian women. Some even acknowledge that Asian men are often too fixed in their ideas of how a woman should look and behave, causing many AF to feel devalued.
Other Asian Americans see AF outmarriage rates as merely a natural state of affairs for a 4% minority population that includes many recent immigrants. The outmarriage gender gap will narrow as growing Asian population centers provide ready access to bigger pools of singles. Besides outmarriage is't the same as rejecting one's racial identity, they argue. Many AF who outmarry retain strong identification with their Asian identity.
Is there really an Asian American gender divide? Is so, what's behind it? If not, what's behind the perception?
This interactive article is closed to new input.
Discussions posted during the past year remain available for browsing.
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
To: MLK
"...Reassurances by AFs are not given any weight b/c you guys don't matter."
I know this is not true because what I have said (and I have said plenty...too much to reitterate in one timeframe) regarding this issue in the past has been very well received by the AMs on Goldsea.
That’s an understatement. You’re one of the few, if not the only Asian woman who’s mature, secure, and strong enough to make your stand without having to cut other people down at every corner. You’re capable of spreading love in a sea of Asian men and women who are too trigger happy in slinging mud. You are the only one in here with the attitude that may actually close the Asian Gender Divide. So what you – MLK – stand for does matter.
Many Asian men and women here can learn a lot from you.
Repost
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 06:41:01 (PST)
[Stop posting in duplicate. You're costing us unnecessary keystrokes each time. The next time you do, we won't post either. --Ed]
AMs are very shy and not as aggressive in pursuing women, however I usually don't see this in overseas AMs, FOPs, and Hawaiian raised AMs. A few points about why they don't approach women are much as their non-Asian peers.
1. AM interpersonal skills lag non-Asian peers until their late teens. Note: This is different from being articulate. Families do not nurture these skills which are essential to dating, a ritual that requires males to be the initiators. Parents also do not place any premium on dating by either sex in their teens. Instead, AMs are disciplined very harshly during child years and affection is usually not present during teenage years. This may explain their harsh reactions to posters whose views conflict with their own. They are reacting the same way their parents did. Since females are inherently more nurturing and interpersonal skills more advanced. they are actually the "aggressors" in many AM/AF teenage dating situations. Around early twenties, males reach full maturity and interpersonal skills may be fully developed. By this time, AFs may already be dating WMs or being approached by WMs due to their numbers and the fact that white parents see dating as more culturally acceptable. After AFs graduate from university, they are likely to be surrounded by whites raising the odds that WMs will approach them.
2. Insecurity due to the media. AFs don't apply the media's idea of WF attractiveness to themselves because they are of a different race. Instead they rely on their own Asian peers as role models. AMs are more likely to accept the myths propagated by the media because males in general are more affected by visual cues. Due to the media, AMs feel less attractive than WMs. That's why AMs are upset by WMs and not by BMs and Latinos in AF IRRs. Feelings of unattractiveness and insecurity feed AM assumptions that females won't give them the time of day and hesitate in approaching them. Modesty vs. insecurity also plays a major role.
3. Fear of rejection. Insecurity begets fear of rejection. AMs check out girls but look quickly away when she approaches. Observe this next time and you will see that I am right.
AMs born overseas, Hawaiian raised, and FOPs generally do not have a problem with approaching women and are usually with what they prefer i.e., AF, WFs or anyone else. Why? Because they are comfortable with their identity as an Asian male.
a point of view among many
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 06:09:40 (PST)
concerned AF married to an AM
You asked: “Why are AMs interested in AFs and the gender divide when they have nothing positive to say about AFs?”
I’ll transpose the AF and AM and I’ll ask you: “Why are AFs interested in AMs and the gender divide when they have nothing positive to say about AMs?”
Do you really care?
More interesting questions are: Why are you married to an Asian man? What are the qualities you see in your husband? What are his views on the gender divide? How does he view your 6’4” gorgeous white male hunk friends? Does he get jealous?
Your being married to an AM obviously gives you more credibility here to stake your claims. But we don’t know if you’re really married to an AM, do we? Just like we’ll never know whether any of your stories are true, will we?
just like you, I can be lying
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 04:23:41 (PST)
Elizabeth, you need to learn to read sarcasm.
huu76
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 03:52:21 (PST)
Matt:
Since you're supposed to be a white guy, I want to ask you this.
When you screw up, does a WF give you a kick out the door right away?
If it's an AF, is it the same or do you get 9 lives?
Just curious.
huu76
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 23:19:45 (PST)
I must say I'm quite "concerned" about Concerned AF's comments.
Her abissmal opinions of AM's only serves to show her real disdain for AM's in general. I have seen so many Asian males raise their daughters and give it their all only to have the daughters bite back.
I pitty the white males out there who have to grow old them. But, then since they're so "great" according to her, they'll just divorce the af's (*cough-cough* Connie Chung), and happily ever after live with another female of their "easy" pickings.
Concerned AM
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 23:14:27 (PST)
Oops, I forgot.
I was in Toronto today and saw this Asian guy with an Indian girl (man did she have curves).
Anyway, the AF waitress seemed a little bothered/uncomfortable with the pairing (I guess slighted would be a good way to put it). I kind of felt for her.
That's 3 couples like that I've seen in Toronto now. I wonder if this is a growing trend? Anyone else seen this?
huu76
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 23:09:17 (PST)
Elizabeth: Don't reply if it's too much of a chore.
Do you hear me complaining about the AF's who do date AM?
When AM do dye their hair, it's usually bleach blonde or some funky unnatural colour. They aren't usually subtle.
Guys don't obsess about having 6packs or nice hair etc. We just let themselves go?
British men dig Indian women don't they? I have a prof who emmigrated from the U.K. and everyone knows the Indian girls in our classes are always his favourites.
About my food comment:
I've seen so many AF/WM relationships where the AF sells herself short that it's turned me off on them.
I've never been rejected by AF because I've never bothered to ask one out.
I was open to it until after a few years in Toronto, then the above comment kicked in.
huu76
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 23:00:30 (PST)
Why is "concerned af.." or whatever so quick to "defend" against *alleged* AM abuses. I guess she's intimidated by the non-stereotypical forwardness of AM's. Perhaps her husband isn't quite forceful so this seems alien to her.
So in her world...We (AM's) should all "step aside" and bow down to the almighty white guy who hits on every af under 5'2"?
btw- Try to keep your posts under 40 chapters. Your arguments are extremely circular to say the least.
Mongol Horde
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 22:34:10 (PST)
MLK
T.H.Lien knows the answer to where that post is. I can't find it. A poster told him he would be a depressing conversationalist. Lien replied, "thanks for the backhanded comment" I'll be the first to let you know when I come across it.
Ramrod and butt straight AM
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 21:06:13 (PST)
To Concerned AF married to AM:
Your posts show a very deep distain towards Asian men. You insults us quite a bit and put White men on pedestals. I honestly think you have a very low esteem in particular with your race. I wonder if you really are married to an AM. Why? And why do you choose to make it such a point? Whether you are or not doesnt change who you are and how you feel about yourself and your own kind. I'm sure some of the AF who are married to White males are actually proud to be Asian. Although probably only a small percentage. Some AF married to AM are probably quite shameful of their Asian roots despite the fact. You would be one if telling the truth!
I think this type of behavior is quite human actually. If a person has deep-rooted self hatred, she will lash out at whatever she can, typically other Asians. She cannot physically insult herself, but everytime she sees another Asian person (male or female), she will feel distain for that person. She will feel she is inherently superior and only see her fellow Asians as being inferior, in particular to Whites, because her not being White is the reason for her insecurity. She will point out some Asian traits that she despise and consider ugly, etc. She particularly focuses on those ethnic traits and that's all she sees. Hence almost every Asian person she sees is ugly. Kind of like this psychological disorder (body dismorphic disorder) or something like that. If you have a zit on your your forehead, your own head is a zit.
She paints a picture of her with her big handsome White man and the ugly little Asian men are bothering her. But her White hero will defend her and beat the Asian guys to a pulp...etc.. This puts her on a pedestal relative to other Asians. Whether her story has any validity or not does not matter. She desperately aligns herself with Whites and pushes herself away from Asians. Because she is so insecure about being non-White, she will put Whites on a glorious pedestal, any White person in fact.
This also explains the way some young AA girls when with White guys will sneer at an Asian guy who may or may not be paying her any attention. She is saying, "look at me. I'm more white than you!" See it's all in her mind and she can never win the battle with herself unfortunately. It's simply about a lack of self-esteem and pride in one's ethnic roots. Nothing else.
This phenomenon is quite obvious in some of the postings displayed here particularly by AA women. It's somewhat understandable in today's "white imaged" society. These women in general will find other non-Whites particularly unattractive as well. It's quite a sad situation for Asians in the Western society.
I encourage those who feel such a way to explore the Asian culture as much as possible. Pick up a movie with Asian movie stars, Asian movies, pick up a magazine with pretty Asian people in it... You will see that Asian people are not all ugly and many are quite attractive. Asian men are not all short and whatever. Sometimes you just need to ask yourself this, "Why dont you find a particular AM attractive, when likely many many non-Asian females would find this guy to be gorgeus? Or why you find yourself less attractive to some particular white girl, when 90& of men (Asian or not)would gravitate towards you rather than her, given the circumstance?" One day, you may look in the mirror and really like what you look like and can picture your kids looking like you; and NOT have to lie about it.
It's a very difficult mindset to break out of. But I really believe these people suffer from a disorder, some more than others.
One last thing. I dont care what these people such as Concerned AF may say about AA people, particular AA men. Asian people are just as attractive and have just as many quality traits (physical or other) as any other races. It just takes an AA person who's comfortable with herself to recognize such, unfortunately.
Trying to offer a psychological perspective to a real human issue
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 20:29:15 (PST)
I don't know where to begin. There are so many issues addressed in this so called "Gender Divide." I keep hearing contradictions over and over again by many posters that they project themselves as idiots more than anything else. You know who you are. Without further hesitation, let me add some criticism regardless of how they are received from you guys and gals.
First off, I guess Asian guys are not aggressive as their male counterparts. Maybe that is true to an extent, but culture does have a big part. In western culture, being aggressive is desired. There are good and bad points of being "aggressive" or being "subtle" as you guys put it. Do all girls want a guy aggressive to a point of arrogance? These aggressive guys get so good at it that they don't stop after they get one girl. These guys will continue to be the "players" that you girls want, right? The subtle Asian guys may not assert themselves due to "subtle racism" from white & Asian girls. Although this is an excuse, it is valid. Many white and Asian girls are so fickle and conceited, they won't even let any Asian guy on first base.
The next issue I guess is with the situation with Japanese girls and black guys. Well, that explains why AIDs is on the rise in Asia. This may not be PC, but it is a fact according to statistics. In the U.S., blacks have a high percentage of bastard children, and I worry that may happen in Japan as well. It shows that women of any race can lower their standards.
Lastly, it is a shame that these AFs are trying to conform to some "beauty standard" that they can never reach. Having all these alterations because of their insecurities. I can't help but burst out laughing seeing ugly, dorky white guys with AFs just because these guys are white. AFs try to reach a "white standard" while at the same time have no standards for the ugly white guys as long as they are white. How come you don't see WM/AF couples around with other WFs. You think having a white guy makes you cool with white girls? Face it AFs, you will never be white no matter how hard you try and how many times you go under the knife. I don't know why some of you AFs ever have this question crossing your minds: "Why is he dating me, was he rejected by WFs before, would I be his first choice if he had to choose between me and a WF?" Peace
The Truth Hurts 2
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 18:45:58 (PST)
Repost
"So remember when you are greeted by those people in their unique way, remember to smile and show them compassion. Without stupidity, how can we appreciate intelligence? Without bitterness, how can we appreciate love?"
So that's how people react to YOUR stupidity and bitterness. You speak from experience. Intelligent people understand the point I raised that hostility towards AFs should not be encouraged. Your stupidity prevents you from comprehending that. Your advice runs counter to the many AMs who feel I should've created scenes when I met those hostile AMs giving others a hard time because of what they perceived to be as interracial relationships.
concerned AF married to an AM
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 15:34:47 (PST)
concerned AF married to an AM,
i agree with you that there are AMs out there who are bitter and take out their lack of success on AFs and white guys.
however i also see and am acquainctances AFs with some self esteem issues. and these AFs are also what you characterize as "ugly". they do have small eyes, the flat nose etc. this is in nyc, a city with a larger asian population than the average US city.
and yes a great number of them are with white men though i would say the white man vary on their looks. when i do talk to them i get a sense that they are resentful of some of their asian features. one AF in particular finally admitted AMs don't find her attractive (really AMs don't approach her) so she dates WMs and hispanic males. i found this strange since i personally found her attractive even with her small eyes and flat nose (she has beautiful hair and good curves). but being friends with her i also know she has a funny quick wit and is generally a fun person to be around (perhaps AMs are too shy). she does not have many asian friends now and when growing up and that is perhaps why she has distanced herself from her asian cultural identity.
the truth is yes AMs do malign AFs based on their own failures with AFs. but there is also truth that AFs shun/ignore AMs and thus the divide. its just that AFs have options to date men of other races so they don't complain. regardless of what other people say, AMs do get rejected by women of other races (i see this at clubs all the time--and some of these guys are good to decent looking). personally i prefer AFs and am dating an AF seriously for almost 2 years so i don't care for this issue of AM/WF. and yes AFs are more frequent and accepted than AMs in the mass media. i dont want to debate that again and i think the media will have more asians in a better light over time. (i am not in the media business and don't plan on furthering asians in the media. rather i care more about asian american civil rights abuses) so it comes down to AMs feeling left out.
what i do really care about is that AFs and AMs should support each other for the sake of the rights of the asian american community in the future. after all my kids will be at least half-asian and most likely 100% asian so i would like them to have a sense of community and the same rights and opportunities as any other american of any race.
however i also feel there are AFs who are proud of their culture and do give a chance to AMs and do relate to AMs.
Streetsmart Korean AF,
yes there is a lot of bashing of AFs on these boards. and i agree that there are many posters here who go too far. however there are also many posters here who support and defend AFs.
the reason so many AM are on here is because there is a divide. AM bashing takes place not so much on the internet but on the streets. i have seen my fair share of AM rejections growing up and even some blatant verbal bashing by AFs in front of white people. most of these AFs though grew up in well to do mostly white suburban neighborhoods.
again, to put it bluntly "sellout" AFs are happier in american society and so dont find a need to complain. whereas "sellout" AMs rejected by WFs and the media bitch a great deal. they only differ in an X and Y chromosome so logically, they should share similar slef loathing issues.
Matt Richardson,
i agree with you that there are AFs with self esteem issues. however these AFs don't come to these boards because they have or want to be fully assimilated into american culture. although i feel every asian should not ignore their identity, this is their perogative and their life.
i would just wish that AFs would acknowledge there are AFs with these issues and in larger numbers than they think. I admit there are AMs who are just bitter and AMs who are "sellouts" too and in larger numbers than we think.
i also agree with your post that a lot of asians to feel inferior in looks, height, and body build to people of other races. and its unfortunate because i see whites, blacks and hispanics who are short, have small breasts, skinny builds, small eyes, etc. who are confident and proud of themselves and where they came from.
whatever
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 14:33:40 (PST)
concerned AF married to an AM
"tall muscular and nimble are not necessarily what makes a guy tough in a fight", you know. You live in a fantasy world about that. Your super tough white guy probably cant fight worth a lick.
Asian Sting
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 13:53:07 (PST)
"lies, damned lies, and statistics."
what can i do? i presented the census data and there are still people who don't think there's a "marriage gap" (in "dr. strangelove" terminology) in the asian-american community. the numbers for the 2000 census broken down by the marriages in asian/white households alone speaks of this. and let's not forget my generation 18-24, who are ready to go into the world, everyday i see at least one AF/WM and no doubt the 2010 census will show even a greater number and percentage of this trend. even some sociology professors who i know are concerned with black/white relations object to the increase in "interracial marriage" statistics. i pointed out that "race relations" in america was getting better because of the great increase of "different race" marriages. what they responded was that the increase was in AF/WM and not black/white so it's not a true indication "things are getting better."
now let me ask, if the raw census data and professional people who interpret these data for a living all agree on the same thing, why can't the AF see this as well?
as i've said before, i believe in america the beautiful and america the free where individual liberty drives this great society forth. and i've nothing less in nearly every situation tried to believe that "race doesn't matter," and when i see AF/WM couple, i still believe in this even though at some levels i can't understand why we AM are passed over. i don't have any hatred for anyone. hate is an abyss that i can't never get out if i fall in. it's the AF's personal choice and anybody else for that matter to date whoever they like and not give a damn about what anyone thinks. isn't this what makes america the greatest nation on the face of the earth?
to this end, all i wish is that we stop the intra-cultural bashings. blame the AF or blame the AM, it doesn't matter and it doesn't help perpetuate peace and tolerance. there was a neat lecture the other day on my campus about the embedded violence in the american english lexicon: "fight injustice/fight racism" "war on terrorism/war on drugs" "battle city-hall." maybe people can think before they post?! think constructive criticism instead of the derogratory "idiot," which is old and lame anyhow in the first place.
this has been an interesting experience reading and posting here. but i'm not sure what i've gained out of it.
oh well, ignore the ramblings of the villageidiot.
villageidiot
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 13:04:32 (PST)
so somebody explain this situation to me and tell me if you've been in similar circumstances.
just today i was talking with two different WM, no less, at different times and the conversation eventually drifted to women and dating. and both of them brought up how their ASIAN-GIRLFRIENDS were so good in bed and knew how to treat them right. mind you, i never brought up the AF/WM topic specifically. the conversations drifted from something else to "women" as a general category. (sorry ladies, we men just naturally always think about you constantly regardless.) yet both of these guys mentioned their ex-asian girlfriends as the geisha girls.
i'm angry or dislike the guys or the AFs, but experience, experience will always win in the end. and in my experience there is such a disparity.
villageidiot
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 12:57:52 (PST)
"The reason why it is not as much of an issue with Lebanese women IS because their ethnic features are VERY CLOSE to that of whites- they look white for all intensive purposes."
Not all of them...but some of them.
This is in stark contrast to asian women, who look VERY different than whites with different skin color
Some Asians especially from up north have white skin color. Northern Japanese are closer to white. On the other hand, many South Indian women have darker skin color than some of us African Americans. Many Indian women from the Caribbean actually look black.
very different eye shape
Unique if you are taliking about East Asians!
nose shape
Actually the East Asian nose is not much different from that of a black person's nose...rather broad.
and build.
Varies.
Black Man married to a Filipina
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 12:44:01 (PST)
Ramrod and butt straight AM,
Maybe T.H. Lien isn't gay, but bisexual.
I wonder if his ideal mates would be both hapa girls & guys. If so, thanks for the complement in advance!
Jay... the narcissist
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 12:27:14 (PST)
"However, WF do not like WM giving AF attention."
Noone:
Are you implying that WFs are racist?
AAF
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 12:25:47 (PST)
"Look at it this way, how many AMs apply to a show like this?
Not many. Good fifteen years ago there was a show called dating game. Darker skinned Asian females got paired with black men, while lighter skinned ones got paired with white males. Thus, a dark skinned Indian female who competed for the Miss Trinidad Universe contest had three black men competing for her, while a light skinned Afghani (yes an Afghani) had three white males competing for her.
"How many of your asian friends like to go to bar and hit on girls (of all races)?"
Not many.
"I have WM, BM, Latinos, Indian males friend who are into this sort of thing."
Do you mean American Indian?
"I only know one AM who like to go to bar hitting on girls."
Why only bars, why not in the classroom?
Someone said most AMs have a more subtle (ie, shy) way of hitting on girls, do you think someone like that would do well on those dating show, do you think many AMs apply to the show? Would you? Any of your AM friends?
No
Indo-American
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 12:19:35 (PST)
to Matt Richardson:
I have a question for you. I do apologize if you've already answered it, but I dug back as far as I could and either missed your answer or couldn't find it at all.
Are you dating/married to an AF, WF, BF, or HF; or are you dating men in general?
guess I'm just trying to find the reason for your anger (it shows really strong here and usually that's because the man's been demoralized, victimized, or otherwise).
MLK
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 11:49:27 (PST)
Matt and BE:
One thing that neither of you mentions - and Matt, being a WM, it does not surprise me that you miss this, but BE ought to know better if she really is Asian.
The desirability to have a "tall" nose is one that has existed, at least in Chinese culture, LONG before the ang mo came to China.
Ai Ya
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 11:47:19 (PST)
Matt R:
largely, I agree with the conclusions of what you say, even if I feel that you have a particular nasty and supercilious streak in you. Not sure why you feel the need to personalise your points into what is not even a thinly-veiled attack on "BE," but to each his own.
What bothers me about your and others' posts is the lack of comprehension of basic maths.
Your question, "why doe 40 per cent of AF marry non-AM" (source is the census data you cite), while simultaneously only 5 per cent of WM marry non-WM. Well, using these data is really lying with statistics. You are a sociologistm, well, an arm-chair one, and not a mathematician, so your sin can be forgiven, since soft-science types regularly confuse statistics.
If "BE" had more grasp, she would have answered that the denominators explain your question. Whites make up what, 75% of the US population? It is simply impossible for 40% of WF to marry non-whites, as the total non-white population is only 25% or so.
A fairer comparison would be to compare the percentages of AF who out-marry to the percentages of AM who out-marry, as this is a much more relevant statistical comparison. I would welcome these numbers.
Second, and this goes to "Whatever Matt," YOUR maths are way off. You cite the census data that 655 couples are A/W, 1914 couples are A/A, for a percentage of 32%. Actually, that percentage, if you took 655/1914, would be 32. But, it would of course, be wrong. Since the proper denominator is ALL Asians, not just A/A marriages. You omit the 25 A/B marriages. So, the CORRECT percentage ought to be:
655/(1914+655+25) = 25%.
Now, and it is important, where is the breakdown of the male/female component? I cannot see where the 40% figure comes from, but my own empirical experience indicates that AF/WM is much more common than AM/WM, so the 25% figure is likely to be different for the different combinations, and I find it EASY to believe that the breakdown might be 40% for AF/WM, and 10% for AM/WF.
Ai Ya
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 11:45:50 (PST)
[hey check out the new show "the bachelor". You guessed it 2 asian girls are competing for wm! Again media has a big hand in gender divide yes its real]
You're talking about the weekend part-time "Hooter's waitress" (I forgot what her weekday job was… hehe) from Arizona and the Korean girl from Plano, Texas, right?
Well, don't get ahead of yourself hombre. The Hooter's hottie isn't quite Asian. She's HAPA!!!
Don't you remember the caption where she said that she had a "unique look" that others didn’t quite have?
The Korean girl certainly wouldn't qualify as having a unique look. Actually, I'm surprised she was picked. She wasn't that attractive. Well, alot of the White ladies weren't that good either. Talk about wrinkles, bad complexions, thin lips, and BIG TOOTHED. Well, I'm probably speaking more in terms of those inbred East Coast White women. It's a shame the mixed Latina (not the large Puerto Rican woman... LOL!) didn't get picked. She must have did worse when it came to conversation.
However, that Black-White mixed actress got picked instead, to her surprise.
She did have one of the prettier faces, though. But a bit too top heavy.
[Bigger frames usually mean bigger breasts, but AFs dispel that notion time and time again with slimmer frames and cups ranging from a perky A to a full C. Hugh Hefner once said in an interview in Cosmopolitan magazine, that regardless of size, he considers the Asian breast to be the most beautiful because of its symmetry and round shape.]
True, but I'd rather fondle that HAPA Hooter's girl's breasts than the Korean girl's. :-)
Hapa Guy
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 11:15:15 (PST)
"In addition, there is MUCH less of a cultural difference with Lebanese women since a very large percentage of Lebanese people are Christian."
Are you sure? I am Lebanese...Since September 11, I have been thrown out of a flight to Amsterdam, denied access to a flight at Dallas, stopped at least ten times by the police, and received hate mail. I am Christian too, and look more like a Greek...if there was so little cultural difference between whites and Lebanese why is all this happening to me, all from white people in this country? And by the way, African Americans are Christians too and so are the Filipinos and Hispanics, but they are not integrated into the white society. Please do not pull this Christian crap and insult other people's intelligence. It all comes to what you look like and your posts reveal that you are as obsessed with looks as Asian Females might be.
Lebanese
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 10:55:32 (PST)
This is to "concerned AF" (who may in fact not be an AF at all):
Judging from the your numerous replies to everyone else in this forum, you are the one who needs to calm down. You are the one who's bitter. Chances are life hasn't treated you too well. If so, I'm sympathetic. Take a chill pill. Try to relax.
You haven't answered my questions. What are you afraid of? What are you avoiding? Here they are again:
- Have you ever seen plain AFs with dorky WMs? Yes or no?
- Have you ever seen young AFs with old WMs? Yes or no?
- Have you ever seen mail order Asian brides with their loser White husbands? Yes or no?
- Why put WMs on such a pedestal? Are you an Amy Tan clone? Or perhaps a WM in disguise?
As for manhandling your coworker, you simply have no idea what you're saying. Prior to my current job I worked as a bouncer for 9 years. That's right, I am one of those muscle-bound AMs you detest -- except I am considerably taller than the examples you cited. On a few ocassions I physically ejected several guys over 6 feet tall from the club. I sincerely doubt your handsome, tall and muscular WM would give me too much trouble. Place your bets however you like. If he steps out of line, you can nurse him back to health after I kick his ass.
Look, my point never was that I wanted to hurt White guys or anyone else. That would be absurd. Two out of three of my closest male friends are White. I have no special resentment or hatred toward a group of people -- not WMs, not AFs, or any other group. I was simply pointing out the absurdity of your "my WM can beat up your AM" bullsh*t. All it shows is that you are either 1) an immature guy trying to be macho indirectly, or 2) a girl with some deep-seated personal issues.
The evidence is mounting that you are a dude pretending to be a woman. That Hugh Hefner bit is much more likely to be quoted by a WM who likes AFs, then AFs themsevles. I don't see that many AFs vocally defending the beauty of their own breasts -- it's a male fixation. AFs also don't spend a whole lot of time making up implausible stories showcasing the evil of AMs. In fact, no other AF has written as many messages as you have on this topic.
Out of all of my questions, you focus on the one about dorky WMs. Something tells me that may be exactly what you are.
Even though I live in an city with many Asians, I have never seen the rude behaviors you described. These stories where AMs are antagonists and WMs are protagonists exist more in the imagination of Whiggies than in reality. Many WMs involved with AFs do indeed fancy themselves heroes rescuing helpless women from oppresive AMs. You fit that mold a little too well.
You probably invented the identity of a married AF thinking it would shield you from too much criticism. Sorry, it ain't working.
Phil
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 10:53:44 (PST)
This is in response to "concerned AF married to an AM":
When I said:
I'm not surprised that you chose not to respond to my post point by point because you likely have no rebuttal for the individual points I made. Since you refused to answer these questions, I will pose them again, and I've included new questions that I hope you will answer individualy this time:
1. while your white male coworker is "6'4 and muscular", and you say that he "could have easily and single-handedly beaten those three scrawny runts to a pulp", asian men who are muscular are viewed in a totally different way: you say "[they] were ridiculously muscle bound and squat" Why are muscles good on the white man but not on the asian men?
2. Even though you say the asian men were muscular, you say "[they] were wearing muscle tank tops. Their clothing was absurd since they were 5'4 or shorter..." They are muscular men, so why is it absurd for them to wear muscle tank tops? Is it because they are short? What does height have to do with it? Muscle tank tops are made for people to show off their muscles, not their height!
3. You seem to take offense to the stereotypes I listed of asian females in my example, and yet you make it a point to mention that all the AMs in your examples are short and ugly in all of your examples and say also mention that "The AMs all had fat faces".. Is it not hypocritical of you to promote stereotypes of AMs in your examples (short, fat faces, ugly, meatballs, little busters, scrawny runts, ganster types) and claim that you " shook [me] out of [my] dream world where every AM is perfect" whereas when I list stereotypes about asian females, you take offense and even take the trouble to defend against the stereotypes point by point? Did I "shake you out of your dream world where every AF is perfect"? I seem to have struck a raw nerve in the example I gave you! I'm amused at the fact that you felt the need to go through the stereotyped features I listed one by one and defend them when it was clearly not my intent to promote those stereotypes against AFs, only to use them in a reverse example to show how you were stereotyping AM. I am really amused that, while you feel it is okay to stereotype asian males in your post and justify it by saying asian males are not perfect, any stereotyping of asian females I did was vehemently defended. Please explain this to me.
4. You never did answer this question: If (my asian male friend who's ex-gf is a WF) had described the confrontation (he had with an AF) to me in this way: "So this *beautiful, tall, toned, tanned, blonde white woman with exquisite facial features, a large bust, and amazing blue eyes* and I were having lunch when this *ugly, short, fat-faced, asian girl who was so flat-chested she looked like a twelve-year-old and had really small eyes* came up to us and started insulting me", I would think he had some MAJOR issues as well. Obviously this is slightly exagerated, but it has a tone very similar to your message. Do you or do you not see the similarities of this example with your original post? (If it is hard for you to see the similarities, just substitute the words "short, fat faces, ugly, meatballs, little busters, scrawny runts, ganster types" for the words "ugly, short, fat-faced, flat-chested, really small eyes") Please answer this one.
You seem all too ready to point out that Asian men are not perfect, whereas you have major problems accepting that the same is rue of asian women.
You said:
"AFs embody most or all of the universal standards of beauty: oval to round face shapes, wide set eyes, generous space between eyebrow to upper lashline, pointed chins, high cheekbones, full lips, generous mouths, and dainty noses."
I find this interesting. If AFs fit most/all the universal standard of beauty, why do so many of them try to look white? Why do so many of them dye/highlight their hair so it is not black (how many white women do you see dying their hair black?) Why do so many wear colord contacts (how many blue/green/hazel-eyed white women do you see wearing BROWN colored contacts?) Why do so many get the surgery to remove the epicanthic fold and why are they so self-conscious about their wide noses?
You said:
"As for small chested, the size of AF breasts are no different proportion wise in size than females of any race. Bigger frames usually mean bigger breasts, but AFs dispel that notion time and time again with slimmer frames and cups ranging from a perky A to a full C. Hugh Hefner once said in an interview in Cosmopolitan magazine, that regardless of size, he considers the Asian breast to be the most beautiful because of its symmetry and round shape. It's hard to dispute the taste of a famous man who is undoubtedly an authority on breasts. And he dosen't have an Asian fetish either."
I'm sure you searched far and wide for the Hugh Hefner article, because it is well known that most men prefer larger breasts period. How many asian women do you see in Hugh Hefner's own Playboy? Not many, I'll tell you that. How many of Hef's girls are asian?? Almost ALL of them are big-breasted BLONDES. How many asian women do you see in bra ads? Almost none. Sorry, you shot yourself in the foot with that Hefner reference.
You said:
"AFs don't have small eyes. AF eyes are wide set and have a lot of space between eyebrow to lashline regardless of existence of crease. That space alone is universally recognized as a sign of beauty and beautiful bone structure. That doesn't conform to your whitewashed view but it's true."
A wide space between the eyes is not a universal sign of beauty. White people (and people of other races) have a much more proportionate amount of space between their eyes. AFs on average do, indeed, have smaller eyes than WFs. Why do you think so many asian women get eyelif surgery to have "beautiful eyes" which are bigger?
You said:
"AFs short? I don't think so. Countless AFs tower over everyone."
That's just ridiculous. "Countless AFs tower over everyone"? Show me an AF and I'll show you ten white women who tower over her. ON AVERAGE, AFs are MUCH shorter than WFs. This is a fact and you can see it for yourself just by looking around. Ask any Asian or White man if AFs are shorter, on average, than WFs and he'll tell you the same. Please stop kidding yourself.
You said:
"You should put things into perspective and get help to get rid of the paranoia haunting you. "
Interesting coming from someone who is so paranoid about a few stereotypes I threw in an EXAMPLE which was used to expose the stereotyping method used in her original post that she went through the stereotypes point by point! That is more paranoid than anything I've seen in this forum to date! I used those stereotypes intentionally to give you a reverse example of that which you provided, and yet instead of recognizing this, you immediately felt the need to take the example seriously (without regard to its intentions) and defend AFs against them. Please examine your own response.
In addition, please answer my questions POINT BY POINT this time. It is very easy to selectively respond to a post when none of it is included in your response. I have listed 4 major questions for you, and I've rebutted your responses to the stereotypes. I await your response.
Matt Richardson
meme0114@yahoo.com
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 10:49:24 (PST)
"This is FAR less invasive and radical than getting cosmetic surgery on your eyes to PERMANENTLY REMOVE an ETHNIC feature."
Both could result in cancer or other side effects and the result could be death.
medcine man
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 10:47:25 (PST)
Matt Richardson:
This is my conclusion:
AFs or AMs who only date outside their race do it out of self-hate.
WMs and WFs (most of them) who only date other whites, particularly in multicultural cities such as Washington DC or LA are at best color conscious and at worst, prejudiced, bigoted, want their children to look like them and would only hire people who look like them.
Lebanese women become "white" to avoid being targeted by police and security. Furthermore, slightly off the topic..you allude to it in your post on Lebanese...you know how the WTC and Pentagon happened...because the Lebanese and Arabs look white...they could not be easily profiled...and most white Americans in the FBI and intelligence services are as race conscious or race obsessed as you are.
After reading your posts, I think you are more obsessed with race and physical features than even the AFs. Lebanese and white Americans have similar cultures? Give me a break!
White Male
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 10:40:56 (PST)
MLK
Can u name a day when AFs are not being insulted and demonized? Count the insults against AFs vs. the insults against AMs on this board. I agree with you that we should date AMs and I'm not ass kissing you. Ass kissing is agreeing with and supporting those who hate/demonize others. I'm not referring to you but I do see people who ass kiss. They are so short on self-esteem and hungry for approval that they support haters and end up looking like dogs begging for scraps of food from abusive owners. They get no real respect and are viewed with secret contempt even by the haters. It's condescending of people to hypothesize about AFs in order to demonize them.
Summary: AFs are AM haters, have low self-esteem, are asian culture haters, whitewashed, hate their asian looks, etc. Even AFs believe it now.
If you're single, why don't you leave your email address or create a special one and see if you get replies that actually result in dates? If AMs are so anxious for an AF, then they would jump at the chance to date a gorgeous AF like yourself. Isn't that why you're here at Goldsea for the same reasons AMs are? Think about it. Btw, I'm dating a Korean man.
streetsmart Korean AF
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 10:31:28 (PST)
Matt,
Those qualities which concluded in this sentence.
"This just doesn't exist among white men, and yet is seems to be anattitude quite common in asian women who date mostly white men."
I've been to through quite a few advance language course in Asia. All the white men in those courses have one or many of the "negative" qualities you listed. You just don't see them here in the USA. Because they are have or are in the process of immigrating to Asian countries.
AC Dropout
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 09:54:03 (PST)
"Show me a white man who dates asian women because he:
- feels his eyes are unattractive and wishes he had asian eyes
- feels his nose is too narrow and pointy and wants an asian nose
- hates his white skin and wants asian skin
- hates his blonde/brown hair color and wants black hair
- feels his children will be more attractive with an asian woman than with a white one"
If I am given all the privileges in the world because I have all the above features, why should I have self-hate and self-loathing? You just hit on something important. It is called white privilege...a reason people demand Affirmitive Action, and other quotas. This also proves that all talk about reverse discrimination is a bunch of baloney. If indeed there was reverse discrimination...all white men would be trying to be Asian or black. You just struck a major blow for Affirmitive Action.
This just doesn't exist among white men, and yet is seems to be anattitude quite common in asian women who date mostly white men.
Asian Female For Affirmitive Action
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 09:34:43 (PST)
"The reason why it is not as much of an issue with Lebanese women IS because their ethnic features are VERY CLOSE to that of whites- they look white for all intensive purposes."
It may not be an issue with the color conscious, bigoted, minority railroading white people of Louisiana, but it is a major issue with Lebanese men, especially those who do not look Southern European, or a tad bit dark for the generally racist white American female tastes, particularly down here in Louisiana.
"This is in stark contrast to asian women, who look VERY different than whites with different skin color, very different eye shape, nose shape, and build."
Typical white American perspective, which focuses on the physical features rather than cultural problems. But, this is not how the world views human beings. Chinese have an ax to grind against Vietnamese, Japanese against Koreans and Thais against Burmese...while none of them may have an ax to grind against whites...although due to bigotry, color consciousness and focus on physical traits the white Americans themselves may have an ax to grind against Asians...I do not see any other rationale for theis than white American bigotry...there is no reason for whites to suspect the motives of AFs other than the fact that they look different. By making the statement you just proved that you are a full blooded white American (or Canadian)...this is the crap I hear from white Americans (mostly female) every day. "But they look different." But, when I ask for any historical reasons, they have nothing to say. Such an attitude is plain inbred bigotry.
"In addition, there is MUCH less of a cultural difference with Lebanese women since a very large percentage of Lebanese people are Christian."
So are the blacks in America and the dark skinned Hispanics...I am afraid I do not buy this argument. And for your information most Filipinas or Christian.
"You cannot say this of Chinese, Japanese, or Koreans."
You need to get your facts straight. At least 40% of the Koreans are Christian, perhaps more Christian than whites, many of whom are not much different from the folks at the Bob Jones University who also focus on the skin color and body features rather than saving souls, and when given a chance sleep around! 50% of Chinese in this country are attend some church service or the other. The Filipinas are mostly Catholic. You conveniently forgot them...why because they are Christian and do not have "white" features? This is a quote about Korean Christianity from another source.
“Since the early 1960s, when South Korea's Christians scarcely topped the one million mark, the number of Christians, particularly Protestants, has increased faster than in any other country, doubling every decade. By 1994, moreover, there were over 35,000 churches and 50,000 pastors, making the South Korean church one of the most vital and dynamic in the world.” Christianity in Korea.
"Yes, it does have to do with their physical features: since the ethnic features of the Lebanese are VERY close to that of white (European-Americans) it shows that the Lebanese women are NOT marrying outside their race out of racial self-hate or because they feel their features are less attractive than those of whites."
No. They want to be whites...they are Middle Eastern and not white (whatever the US Census might claim). Let us take the example of their Middle Eastern sisters, Jews...everyone asks why Jews are powerful in this country...The reason is simple...they want to remain Jews and maintain their culture. The Arabs try to be white where they can, and hide where they can...and when things get hard they resort to violence, instead of organizing and trying to influence US policy. The entire WTC fiasco was the result of Arabs not taking advantage of the Democratic process in this country and trying to disappear into the majority white culture.
"This is in sharp contrast to asian features, which differ GREATLY from white features."
Exactly the same statement has been made by the KKK, nationalist.org, World Church of the Creator, the Nazi Party, Council of Conservative Citizens, Goldsboro Christian Schools, White Sororities and Fraternities, Bob Jones University, some chapters of the DAR and other low lives of society. And furthermore, as I saw in another board (Whiting Wongs) that the big problem is that Asians keep to themselves. Obviously there are whites who want to be segregated from Asians and do not want AFs marrying whites and there are others who think that they should assimilate. It seems to me that unless you are white in this society you cannot win.
"This, combined the the attitude common among many asian women that white features are more attractive than asian features, seals my argument."
What do you expect when both Asian and white societies dominated by males reinforce this image?
Asian Male
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 09:26:01 (PST)
Matt Richarson said:
"Also, if what you say holds true (complacent and aggressive are antonyms, by the way) then why don't you see more asian women with black men, since black men are typically MUCH more aggressive in the dating game than white men (or any other race of men for that matter)."
When considering number of AF/BM and AF/WM, first, you have to take into consideration of the % of BM and % of WM of overall population. Second, whites and asians tend to have more contact due to similar socio-ecnomic backgrounds. When you normalized these two factors, I think you would realize there are a lot of AF/BM too. I see AF/BMs freqeuently in NYC, probably due to large number BMs that are white collar professionals there. Once again, I think the cause of gender divide is AMs passivness in pursuing women.
Jay
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 09:08:59 (PST)
"as said before, we AM prefer to be SUBTLE (see if the caps will work here). there are a good deal number of articles on this on goldsea.com already so i'm not going to elaborate, but being aggressive has nothing to do with "booty-call" and if the AF don't realize this, i don't feel any sympathy when they get dumped by the frat boys after "hooking up."
If there are AFs being "dumped by the frat boys after hooking up", that means "booty-call" type of behavior are getting frat boys some easy sex, so AFs are responding to "booty-call" and turning down AMs that practice your highly regarded "SUBTLE" dating style???? Look at the interracial numbers of AF/WM, AFs don't even notice the "SUBTLE" apporach. Looking at the lack WF/AM, I guess women generally don't like "SUBTLE" approach.
Sounds to me you insist on practicing your so called "SUBTLE" (or shy) approach, you think girls should recognize and respond to your interest.
Jay
Thursday, March 28, 2002 at 08:59:03 (PST)
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