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GOLDSEA |
ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
IS THE AA GENDER DIVIDE REAL?
(Updated
Wednesday, Jan 22, 2025, 06:38:55 AM)
sian American women are abandoning AA men by the millions. Young AA women seek out any race of men but their own. Women like Amy Tan write books and make movies that dump on AA men and glorify Asian women in relationships with white men.
That's the perception of many AA men.
On what do they blame this state of affairs? Brainwashing by media that play up white men while cutting Asian men off at the knees. Desire for payback by AA women who feel slighted by their families and Asian society. Large numbers of non-Asian men with blind fetishes for Asian women. Some even acknowledge that Asian men are often too fixed in their ideas of how a woman should look and behave, causing many AF to feel devalued.
Other Asian Americans see AF outmarriage rates as merely a natural state of affairs for a 4% minority population that includes many recent immigrants. The outmarriage gender gap will narrow as growing Asian population centers provide ready access to bigger pools of singles. Besides outmarriage isn't the same as rejecting one's racial identity, they argue. Many AF who outmarry retain strong identification with their Asian identity.
Is there really an Asian American gender divide? Is so, what's behind it? If not, what's behind the perception?
This interactive article is closed to new input.
Discussions posted during the past year remain available for browsing.
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
To: concerned AF married to an AM
“Intelligent people understand the point I raised that hostility towards AFs should not be encouraged. Your stupidity prevents you from comprehending that.”
In my March 25th post, I advocated that Asian men should keep an open heart to Asian women. In my March 28 post, which was the one you replied to, I never even wrote anything about Asian women or Asian men. What I tried to suggest to the forum readers was to take on a different vantage point and to learn to find things in people to appreciate. Yet, you must associate everything with the Asian Gender Divide. Wasn’t it you who wrote your first post saying that the Gender Divide is blown out of proportion? Why is that that at every corner, you have to associate everything with the Gender Divide?
So whenever something doesn’t go your way, it’s the Asian Gender Divide, right? Or do you just walk around with a big chip on your shoulder?
Just in case my posts were too convoluted for you, I’ll simplify and summarize them, just for you:
March 25th post: Asian men should keep an open heart to Asian women. Even for the Asian men who can’t see an Asian women being in their lives, be nice to them. We can later decide to expunge the ones who prove to be unworthy. It’s much like a basket of apples. Don’t throw the whole basket away. Most of the apples are good. When we come across the few bad ones (e.g. you), throw those away individually.
March 28th post: Look for and appreciate the best in everyone. This is not limited to Asians, but rather to everyone. It’s much like turning a lemon into lemonade. Yes, even with a really bitter, sour, and dry lemon (e.g. you), if one tries hard enough, one can turn it into lemonade (the reminder to be appreciative). And thank the lemon, for if there were no lemons, we’d never be able to appreciate lemonade.
March 29th post: Recognize, acknowledge, and appreciate people who exude positive forces. These are the bearers of light in a sea of darkness. We need to appreciate, protect, and learn from them.
This post: Sometimes it is necessary to simplify things to reach down to the lowest common denominator.
Repost
Sunday, March 31, 2002 at 03:52:59 (PST)
Noone:
"Make up your mind, which is it? Are WFs jealous or not?
PS Go get a good book on self esteem."
You must have little self-esteem to allow my opinions to have that type of effect on you. I've explained what you had asked already....so I will not explain it again b/c 1) I do not need your approval...2) you're not worth my time....3) its not going to get us anywhere.
MLK:
"It would help if you didn't fluctuate from one extreme thought to another. First you say you're not going to hate others b/c of it, then you say that you resent WMs for getting promotions/more money, etc."
How is it I fluctuated from one extreme to another, I do not understand...b/c you were responding to comments from ONE post, not several different ones. Yes, I said I wasnt going to hate others...but I do not ever recall saying that I "resented" WMs for "getting promotions"...however, I do remember saying that WM get more RESPECT (not promotions) in an office environment. I guess it helps to strengthen your arguement when you put words in others mouthes.
"If you're going to do this wishy-washy flippety-flop thing, then I will simply not post to you in the future because you don't know what you want from life due to the fact that you can't make up your mind from one day to the next."
This "wishy-washy flippety-flop thing" is all in your head. Please do NOT respond to my posts if you're going to attack me for things I did not say.
Also, I will not respond to your other comments for the same reasons I will not respond to Noone comments.
Village Idoit:
"like i said, there's nothing but bashing BOTH DIRECTIONS. i'm too tired to respond to the negativity."
Considering how our opinions greatly differ, I can actually agree with you on something. I havent gain anything positive from this forum either. I truly hope these views on here are not representational of AA in the real world...how frightening that would be.
be
Saturday, March 30, 2002 at 21:12:31 (PST)
"AMs are very shy and not as aggressive in pursuing women, however I usually don't see this in overseas AMs, FOPs, and Hawaiian raised AMs."
Oversea AMs, FOPs? You mean asians from Taiwan, Hong Kong, China? I think on average AMs from those places are shy about approaching women too. Go to asia, you would run into plenty of asian women would tell you how they prefer white men, since they are more aggressive and outgoing. Hawaiian AMs are probably just like white dudes, since they grow up with western culture but in asian majority society.
Jay
Saturday, March 30, 2002 at 20:35:51 (PST)
This is in response to "huu76":
You said:
"Since you're supposed to be a white guy, I want to ask you this."
I guess you have no way of verifying this, but rest assured I am white and male.
You said:
"When you screw up, does a WF give you a kick out the door right away?
If it's an AF, is it the same or do you get 9 lives?"
In my experience, this hasn't been race-dependent. I've run across very high-maintenence women in all races, as well as nit-picky women. As for how much they will tolerate, it has been all over the place, and no pattern has emerged among races. I can tell you the last asian girl I dated was very jealous if I talked to or even looked at white women, but she was very insecure overall. The white girl I am currently dating has no such hangups, but I have dated very jealous white girls also. However, it may be interesting to note that their jealousy was not race-specific.
Matt Richardson
meme0114@yahoo.com
Saturday, March 30, 2002 at 02:17:35 (PST)
Matt Richardson:
I find your attitude towards AF to be quite disturbing.
1. You have not been able to admit that WM pursuing AF have greatly contributed to the increasing WM/AF relationships.
a)I've asked you why there is a large percentage of WM pursuing AF. Not only were you not able to acknowledge this, you requested statistics.
b) You listed reasons for WM's interest in AF (which I DO agree with), but you were quick to point out that these are traits of WM "exclusively" dating AF...from my personal experiences and observations, I find this to be untrue...MANY WM perceive AF as you have described, whether they are pursuing us or not).
c) You proceeded by stressing the "very important" point was that AF "chooses" to date WM...not WM pursues AF. Since both are involved in the relationship, wouldnt it be logical to assume that BOTH should be held accountable? Again, this indicates how reluctant you have been to admitting that WM (pursuing AF) are partially responsible for the high AF outmarriage rate.
2. You have been persistent in pointing out that AF are self-haters. Your belief is very unsettling b/c you have not only attacked the AF sell-outs...you have attacked ALL AF.
a) You stated that when a person dislikes their ethnic feature, they are disliking themselves (as you believe many AF do). I pointed out the ethnic features of whites and blacks that have been altered to achieve 'beauty'. Not surprisingly, you completely dismissed that modifying the color of an ethnically white skin was a form of self-hatred...and your reason is b/c the change is not as radical. Why should this matter?...the point is that many WF and WM are ALTERING their ethnically pale colored skin. I had mentioned that blacks possess ethnically nappy hair, and many have also concealed this under wigs and weaves. You stated that, "Yes, this is a very obvious case of racial self-hatred." Then I must ask you...Oprah Winfrey wear weaves (I know b/c I've seen pictures of her hair before and during the show)...is she a self-hater? As a matter of fact, a very large percentage of BF you see in public are wearing weaves or wigs...are they ALL self-haters?
b) You ridicule AF for wearing color contacts and dyeing our hairs. An equally large percentage of blacks and whites females also wear color contacts and have dyed hair. You argue that for whites it is acceptable b/c they are not modifying their ethnic feature. Isn't it interesting that your logic enables you to conclude that...although all these females are modifying the same physical features, only the AF and BF deserve the 'self-hater' label?
c) You have been persistant in attempting to prove that AF dislike AM appearance and AF perceive AM as weak.
I have mentioned MANY times (in my response to you, and others) that the majority of AF do NOT despise AM...which also includes, not disliking AM appearance, and not perceiving AM as weak. Yet, you continue to ask me...."Again, if asian women find asian eyes to be unattractive, then will they find men with that feature attractive? NO." or "How many of your asian female friends stereotype asian men as nerdy, weak, or chauvenistic?"
3. You ignore information you do not want to hear.
a) I (and many other AF on this forum) have mentioned that we DO NOT possess a desire to look white. You refuse to accept this, and continue to ask questions such as..."do you find YOUR asian features less attractive than the white features of a white women?" and "...would you think of your future son (with a white man) as less attractive if he inherited more of your asian features..." You asked me these questions once, and I replied. A few days later, you asked me the EXACT same questions AGAIN. Is this a case of involunatarily memory lost or intentional memory suppression?
b) In the previous post, you've quoted my comments...
"How about answering this question...what is more common...a drop-dead gorgeous woman with a devastately handsome man? or a drop-dead gorgeous woman with an extremely wealthy man?...women are attracted to security...more so than appearance."
Interestingly, you've omitted the "why are there so many pretty AF with ugly WM". You assumed that AF dislikes our ethnically features, therefore we dislike AM appearance...but you have refuse to acknowledge or explain why there are so many dog-ugly WM with pretty AF.
4) In your initial post you try to come off as a concerned white guy who is seriously trying to understands the issues resulting in the increasing number of AF/WM relationships...you even asked for AF opinions. Since then AF have stated personal opinions on this issue, yet you have dismissed all theories that did not conform to yours. If a person is TRULY interesting in exploring AA gender divide issue, wouldnt that person be eager to hear and try to understand the AA perspective...rather than arguing against them?
Matt, you are a very intelligent guy...you caught our attention when you pretended to be the white guy who was 'victimized by AF and concerned of the gendering dividing issues'. Your devious plans to increasing friction between AM and AF have worked...look how the bashing between AF and AM have dramatically increased since your initial posting. So once again..the white guy wins?
be
Saturday, March 30, 2002 at 00:14:47 (PST)
Someone said that AM really want WF and are trying to get pity by using the divide to our advantage.
If so, why are we trying to gain pity from WF by arguing with AF infront of other Asians?
huu76
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 21:59:06 (PST)
Ai Ya,
First off I agree with your analysis and it was an oversight on my part that I missed the B/A element. The breakdown point of the male/female on CURRENT statistics were never provided. Thus having gone through the second chart,
http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/interractab1.txt
I put some liberty in using those 2 figures together. I was however confused on the last part of your statement. Do you mean to say that the ratio of AF/WM:AM/WF relationships is 4:1? Please explain!
whatever Matt (a.k.a. Proud 2 b Azn)
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 19:14:53 (PST)
I don't understand this idea that an Asian female who is attracted to White males must have low self-esteem and must hate being Asian. That is the exact opposite of what makes sense to me.
I am an Asian female. I have always been attracted to White males. It's not because I "have issues" with being Asian. In fact, one of the things that attracts me to White guys is that a lot of them are attracted to Asian females. I have always been happy that I'm Asian, and White guys only reinforce my happiness with my looks. I would never dream of changing my looks, and my boyfriend wouldn't want me to, either. He loves me the way I am.
This idea that going out with a White guy proves that I have some sort of "deep seated" problem with being Asian just makes no sense to me.
Wen
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 19:09:22 (PST)
Wow, there certainly is a lot of insults here. It's great to read this board. It's so controversial and so heated. This is fabulous entertainment actually.
Some of us who post often are quickly revealing their characters, just like characters in a book.
Concerned AF Married to AM:
Hates herself and is likely the most insecure AF in this entire forum. She thinks she is so ugly that she thinks she can pass some of that ugliness to AA males, by insulting them. Wishes she was White. Her 6'4 WM is likely a real tall geeky type; gets attention more from AF than WF. Why else would he hang out with her? btw: Not to insult AF's but we all can see that. This one has serious issues!
Matt Richardson:
This White guys is a real dork but has a good education. He's real insecurity problem and relies on his whiteness to get AA girls. Unfortunately for him, on AF generally find him attractive. After many successful experiences with many 'sellout' AF he attempts he finds one AF who completely rejects for whatever reason. This girl might have some class and taste. He is infuriated because he's been neuralizing his insecurities for so long with 'sellout AFs.' Now he lashes out! He particularly points out physical traits, etc.. He probably is real butt and has a long ugly nose. He still thinks he's better looking than AMs. Let me tell you this, I'm a AM and I've been told many times I only gained my success in life based on my "good looks."; mostly Whites and some AF has mentioned that jokingly to me. Nothing to be proud of. Just stating from my experiences. Although he is right about why some AF's feel insecure and really lets them have it. :) This guy has personal issues as well!
Hapa Guy: He just thinks he's cool cause he's hapa. Probably thinks deep down he's cooler cause he's mixed breed? That's Hapa right? Hey man, many AFs will prefer you due to your heritage, so don't feel bad. Although they likely wouldnt be my type
MLK: She's a nice girl with good values. She makes a lot of sense and seem to feel good about herself. Good sign; others should look up to her. I wish more AFs are like her. Most likely she's a hot babe who's into sociological issues and politics. Why I think she's a babe. It's much easier to feel good about oneself if one is attractive. No offense.
Ai Ya: Too concerned with senseless statistics.
Phil: I like this guy! He's pretty cool and has plenty of self-confidence. I wouldn't want to get into a fight with him. On the other hand would love this guy on my side if I ever got into a brawl.
Huu76: He seems to like the AM/non-AF pair-ups. He probably prefers non AF over AF. He may also have issues but not quite as bad as some AF's here. Hey there's nothing wrong with I/R dating. Just some of the reasons behind it.
Village Idiot: I can't figure this guy out. I think he really wants to fit into the white society but is proud of his Asian roots. Too concerned with statistics.
I'm just an AM who really enjoys life and traveling around the world. I use to have some issues with my race growing up I think, but i quickly grew out of it. I believe AFs are some of the most beautiful, although i find women of all races attractive. I think Asians in general are some of the most attractive and certainly no less than other races. I like being Asian; wouldnt want to be anyone else. I don't really hate AFs, just some of the stupid ones i'd encountered and those nasty AF posters. They spout their hatred to me and expect me to laugh with them as they diss my Asian brothers and to a lesser degree their Asian sisters. Sorry I have no love for people who hate themselves and try and spread it.
Please keep this up. I could write a book on this one day! Honest.
AA Male Perspective
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 18:23:51 (PST)
oops, i did it again.
typeo: "i'm NOT angry or dislike the guys or the AFs, but experience..." from thursday's post.
and this to "be" or "jay" or whoever got problems with our AM dating approach. as i've said, different storkes for different folks. now, there's the song "when a [girl] loves a [man], [he] can do no wrong" but when the girl doesn't love a man everything he does can't be right. now isn't it interesting that everything we AM do seem to these AF here to be wrong while everything WM do is to them considered the standard and correct in terms of "hitting up" girls?
since the editors seem to complain about arthritis from too much keystrokes, save it whatever name or complaint you've got against me personally. i'm only reading this divide board from now one and won't respond to anymore negativity.
villageidiot
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 15:46:06 (PST)
What about the "look" AF/WM couples give you when they walk by. Like they are so much better then you. You know I actually had a BF and a WF say to me "there is an impression that their is something wrong with AM's, cause their own women do not want them" This is getting sad.
Asian Sting
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 15:18:41 (PST)
to streetsmart Korean AF:
"...If you're single, why don't you leave your email address or create a special one and see if you get replies that actually result in dates? If AMs are so anxious for an AF, then they would jump at the chance to date a gorgeous AF like yourself. Isn't that why you're here at Goldsea for the same reasons AMs are? "
I'm here for fun and to pitch wits with those who are able to carry a rational conversation and can write well enough to challenge me and win. I'm not really here to try and get a date...I've never had a problem with not being able to find a man, Asian or otherwise. AMs are here for reasons of their own that may or may not differ with me, but I NEVER assume that they are all here because they can't find a date for Saturday night.
Maybe all the bad blood flying around really hurts when it hits certain individuals because it's true for these particular individuals. For me, I don't take it personally because it doesn't apply to me. Sure, I occassionally (sp?) dye my hair blonde just for fun, but it's not a permanent state and half the year, I go back to my natural hair color (which is not really black as road tar anyhow). At this time, it's a very dark brown. I do have colored contacts that I wear just for fun, but I can't wear them past a day because they itch like the devil and then I get ugly red eyes :). No, I've never had surgery on my eyes. I believe that you're only given so many chances to play with surgery and I'd prefer to keep my survival chances high for things that count, like brain surgery or open-heart surgery, thank you very much. Ditto for my nose and my cheekbones and anything else you can name that I own (other than my collarbone which was accidentally fractured when I was small and the doctor had to insert something so I could keep my frame upright and not look lopsided).
Anyway, most AMs I meet (on Goldsea or otherwise) treat me very well. I think it's that mutual respect thing. Also, my experience is that Asian men can get really vicious towards others if they feel that a female within their vicinity is being threatened. If I were you, I would find a way to direct this anger away from the AFs and aim it towards those who are against Asians in general.
MLK
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 14:55:35 (PST)
Ramrod and butt straight AM,
The post you are referring to is in the "Challenges of AA teens & parents" page in the polls section. The initial comment was made to me on February 26, 2002 at 23:34:42 (PST).
In it he also makes a comment, "30 years of sexual liberation and the percentage of the population who thinks homosexuality should not be publically accepted or encouraged barely moved."
B. Lee
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 14:15:33 (PST)
This is in response to "Asian female for Affirmative Action"
When I said:
"Show me a white man who dates asian women because he:
- feels his eyes are unattractive and wishes he had asian eyes
- feels his nose is too narrow and pointy and wants an asian nose
- hates his white skin and wants asian skin
- hates his blonde/brown hair color and wants black hair
- feels his children will be more attractive with an asian woman than with a white one"
You said (in response):
"If I am given all the privileges in the world because I have all the above features, why should I have self-hate and self-loathing? You just hit on something important. It is called white privilege...a reason people demand Affirmitive Action, and other quotas."
Whoa now! It's a pretty big jump from what I said (about White men not having self-hatred issues similar to Asian females) to the conclusion that white males are are given all the priveleges in th world because of their white features. I agree there is discrimination based on race, but poor white people are not given "all the priveleges in the world" just because they have a narrow nose and white skin. Just tell that to people in a trailer park.
You said:
"This also proves that all talk about reverse discrimination is a bunch of baloney. If indeed there was reverse discrimination...all white men would be trying to be Asian or black. You just struck a major blow for Affirmitive Action."
Not really. You are making a BIG assumption here. That asians and other races wanting to conform to the white standard of beauty has to do MAINLY with white privilege, and not that they inherently find white features more attractive, or that their culture/society values white features.
You said:
"This just doesn't exist among white men, and yet is seems to be anattitude quite common in asian women who date mostly white men."
Could it be that the reason why Asian women find white features more attractive has little to do with white privilege and more to do with aesthetics? I can't count the number of women on the AF/WM forum and in person who have gone on and on about how I (and white men in general) are tall, handsome, muscular, and how much they admire my blue eyes (every asian women I've gone out with has commented on my blue eyes, whereas few white women do, even brown-eyes ones!) Somehow I don't think it's a coincidence that so many asian women wear colored contacts, and I don't think it has anything to do with white privilege because asian women with green eyes are treated no differently than other asian women. Either way, they will never be mistaken for a white woman.
Matt Richardson
meme0114@yahoo.com
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 12:54:34 (PST)
This is in response to "MLK":
You said:
"Are you dating/married to an AF, WF, BF, or HF; or are you dating men in general?"
Actually, I did mention that I list these experiences after having dated several asian women (though not exclusively). Actually, I am not married, and I am actively dating. I would say a majority of the women I've dated have been white, but I have dated many asian, latino, and east-indian, and black women. Yes, I've had my share of rejection just like any other guy, but I'd honestly say I'm doing pretty well and staying pretty active in the dating game.
You said:
"I guess I'm just trying to find the reason for your anger (it shows really strong here and usually that's because the man's been demoralized, victimized, or otherwise)."
That's an interesting psychological analysis, but I suggest that you stick to your day job. I admit that I do sometimes get charged up in these discussions, but you don't seem to realize that it is not specific to discussions about race or women or IR dating. It is a pet-peeve of mine when someone either avoids questions altogether, or sidesteps logical arguments. My strong responses (which often try to force people to face questions they may be avoiding) may be interpreted as angry, but you would be wrong to assume that the reason why I'm so charged up is personal. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Regards,
Matt
Matt Richardson
meme0114@yahoo.com
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 12:39:49 (PST)
a point of view among many:
Well said on the FOP's aggressiveness in pursing women. Actually, I witnessed that more FOPs were interested in and actually asked white women out than American-born Asians
FOP (A HK Born Chinese)
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 09:10:47 (PST)
"A fairer comparison would be to compare the percentages of AF who out-marry to the percentages of AM who out-marry, as this is a much more relevant statistical comparison. I would welcome these numbers."
40% marry outside...about 30% of the Asian males dont get any dates let alone marry. Sociologists say that by 2010 as much as 50% of Asian males over 40 would not have been married. Tell me. I am over 40. But as Asian American male said, I blew my chances. I had a chance to go back to Asia to get married nearly twenty years ago when I was 27...but I did not. And as Asian American Male had said, if I had done that, I would have made contribution to speed up the browning of America by bringing their relatives here. But, I blew my chance. In fact, that is the only serious opportunity I blew.
PS. She got married to an Asian American and all her relatives are coming here anyway and many would become citizens...so on the browning of America front...well, good progress!
Still Unmarried
Friday, March 29, 2002 at 09:03:09 (PST)
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