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ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
IS THE AA GENDER DIVIDE REAL?
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:05:17 PM)
sian American women are abandoning AA men by the millions. Young AA women seek out any race of men but their own. Women like Amy Tan write books and make movies that dump on AA men and glorify Asian women in relationships with white men.
That's the perception of many AA men.
On what do they blame this state of affairs? Brainwashing by media that play up white men while cutting Asian men off at the knees. Desire for payback by AA women who feel slighted by their families and Asian society. Large numbers of non-Asian men with blind fetishes for Asian women. Some even acknowledge that Asian men are often too fixed in their ideas of how a woman should look and behave, causing many AF to feel devalued.
Other Asian Americans see AF outmarriage rates as merely a natural state of affairs for a 4% minority population that includes many recent immigrants. The outmarriage gender gap will narrow as growing Asian population centers provide ready access to bigger pools of singles. Besides outmarriage isn't the same as rejecting one's racial identity, they argue. Many AF who outmarry retain strong identification with their Asian identity.
Is there really an Asian American gender divide? Is so, what's behind it? If not, what's behind the perception?
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
to Repost:
"...isn’t it a lot more effective and fun to have this perspective than to keep a 64oz bottle of Asian-Pride to apply whenever we get burned by these people?"
Yes. That sounds about right. I normally squeeze a big dollop of this Asian-Pride on whoever looks like he/she needs it and then hope some of it sticks. It is kinda funny when you really think about it. The only other thing I see is that "to every thing there is a reason and a time yadda yadda yadda".
"...We’re always going to have instigators, no matter what. We’ll never be able to change them."
Instigators do serve a purpose here on this forum, much like the buzzards that keep the earth clean from rotting carcasses and bacteria which breaks down waste products into organic mulch for plants to use. Without instigators, dear Repost, we wouldn't have anything interesting to say. We'd be slinging platitudes back and forth against each other. "Oh, you're so nice!", "No, you're nicer!", "Impossible, I insist that you're nicer!", (Slap!) "Don't you dare correct my assumption that you're nicer than me!" (hehehehe).
MLK
Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 21:28:07 (PST)
Ai Ya,
I guess it is possible but having said that. That's one HUGE assumption. According to the stats below
http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/interractab1.txt
the ratio of AF/WM:AM:WF marriages have relatively been consistent at 2:1 from the 60's to the 80's. Unfortunately there are not recent statistics. So I guess it could be possible but that's REALLY stretching it.
whatever Matt (a.k.a. Proud 2 b Azn)
Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 19:10:33 (PST)
This is in response to "concerned AF married to an AM":
I'm not surprised that you chose not to respond to my post point by point because you likely have no rebuttal for the individual points I made. Since you refused to answer these questions, I will pose them again, and I've included new questions that I hope you will answer individualy this time:
1. while your white male coworker is "6'4 and muscular", and you say that he "could have easily and single-handedly beaten those three scrawny runts to a pulp", asian men who are muscular are viewed in a totally different way: you say "[they] were ridiculously muscle bound and squat" Why are muscles good on the white man but not on the asian men?
2. Even though you say the asian men were muscular, you say "[they] were wearing muscle tank tops. Their clothing was absurd since they were 5'4 or shorter..." They are muscular men, so why is it absurd for them to wear muscle tank tops? Is it because they are short? What does height have to do with it? Muscle tank tops are made for people to show off their muscles, not their height!
3. You seem to take offense to the stereotypes I listed of asian females in my example, and yet you make it a point to mention that all the AMs in your examples are short and ugly in all of your examples and say also mention that "The AMs all had fat faces".. Is it not hypocritical of you to promote stereotypes of AMs in your examples (short, fat faces, ugly, meatballs, little busters, scrawny runts, ganster types) and claim that you " shook [me] out of [my] dream world where every AM is perfect" whereas when I list stereotypes about asian females, you take offense and even take the trouble to defend against the stereotypes point by point? Did I "shake you out of your dream world where every AF is perfect"? I seem to have struck a raw nerve in the example I gave you! I'm amused at the fact that you felt the need to go through the stereotyped features I listed one by one and defend them when it was clearly not my intent to promote those stereotypes against AFs, only to use them in a reverse example to show how you were stereotyping AM. I am really amused that, while you feel it is okay to stereotype asian males in your post and justify it by saying asian males are not perfect, any stereotyping of asian females I did was vehemently defended. Please explain this to me.
4. You never did answer this question: If (my asian male friend who's ex-gf is a WF) had described the confrontation (he had with an AF) to me in this way: "So this *beautiful, tall, toned, tanned, blonde white woman with exquisite facial features, a large bust, and amazing blue eyes* and I were having lunch when this *ugly, short, fat-faced, asian girl who was so flat-chested she looked like a twelve-year-old and had really small eyes* came up to us and started insulting me", I would think he had some MAJOR issues as well. Obviously this is slightly exagerated, but it has a tone very similar to your message. Do you or do you not see the similarities of this example with your original post? (If it is hard for you to see the similarities, just substitute the words "short, fat faces, ugly, meatballs, little busters, scrawny runts, ganster types" for the words "ugly, short, fat-faced, flat-chested, really small eyes") Please answer this one.
You seem all too ready to point out that Asian men are not perfect, whereas you have major problems accepting that the same is rue of asian women.
You said:
"AFs embody most or all of the universal standards of beauty: oval to round face shapes, wide set eyes, generous space between eyebrow to upper lashline, pointed chins, high cheekbones, full lips, generous mouths, and dainty noses."
I find this interesting. If AFs fit most/all the universal standard of beauty, why do so many of them try to look white? Why do so many of them dye/highlight their hair so it is not black (how many white women do you see dying their hair black?) Why do so many wear colord contacts (how many blue/green/hazel-eyed white women do you see wearing BROWN colored contacts?) Why do so many get the surgery to remove the epicanthic fold and why are they so self-conscious about their wide noses?
You said:
"As for small chested, the size of AF breasts are no different proportion wise in size than females of any race. Bigger frames usually mean bigger breasts, but AFs dispel that notion time and time again with slimmer frames and cups ranging from a perky A to a full C. Hugh Hefner once said in an interview in Cosmopolitan magazine, that regardless of size, he considers the Asian breast to be the most beautiful because of its symmetry and round shape. It's hard to dispute the taste of a famous man who is undoubtedly an authority on breasts. And he dosen't have an Asian fetish either."
I'm sure you searched far and wide for the Hugh Hefner article, because it is well known that most men prefer larger breasts period. How many asian women do you see in Hugh Hefner's own Playboy? Not many, I'll tell you that. How many of Hef's girls are asian?? Almost ALL of them are big-breasted BLONDES. How many asian women do you see in bra ads? Almost none. Sorry, you shot yourself in the foot with that Hefner reference.
You said:
"AFs don't have small eyes. AF eyes are wide set and have a lot of space between eyebrow to lashline regardless of existence of crease. That space alone is universally recognized as a sign of beauty and beautiful bone structure. That doesn't conform to your whitewashed view but it's true."
A wide space between the eyes is not a universal sign of beauty. White people (and people of other races) have a much more proportionate amount of space between their eyes. AFs on average do, indeed, have smaller eyes than WFs. Why do you think so many asian women get eyelif surgery to have "beautiful eyes" which are bigger?
You said:
"AFs short? I don't think so. Countless AFs tower over everyone."
That's just ridiculous. "Countless AFs tower over everyone"? Show me an AF and I'll show you ten white women who tower over her. ON AVERAGE, AFs are MUCH shorter than WFs. This is a fact and you can see it for yourself just by looking around. Ask any Asian or White man if AFs are shorter, on average, than WFs and he'll tell you the same. Please stop kidding yourself.
You said:
"You should put things into perspective and get help to get rid of the paranoia haunting you. "
Interesting coming from someone who is so paranoid about a few stereotypes I threw in an EXAMPLE which was used to expose the stereotyping method used in her original post that she went through the stereotypes point by point! That is more paranoid than anything I've seen in this forum to date! I used those stereotypes intentionally to give you a reverse example of that which you provided, and yet instead of recognizing this, you immediately felt the need to take the example seriously (without regard to its intentions) and defend AFs against them. Please examine your own response.
In addition, please answer my questions POINT BY POINT this time. It is very easy to selectively respond to a post when none of it is included. I have listed 4 major questions for you, and I've rebutted your responses to the stereotypes. I await your response.
meme0114@yahoo.com
Matt Richardson
Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 14:03:29 (PST)
This is in response to "be":
You said:
"b) You listed reasons for WM's interest in AF (which I DO agree with), but you were quick to point out that these are traits of WM "exclusively" dating AF...from my personal experiences and observations, I find this to be untrue...MANY WM perceive AF as you have described, whether they are pursuing us or not)."
This has just not been my experience, and I think I would know better as a WM (I'll bet I know / have met many more white male friends than you have). As I said, the WMs who have a *fetish* for AW generally look for very petite, subsurvient, "little-girl"-looking women. Most white men are not like this.
You said:
"c) You proceeded by stressing the "very important" point was that AF "chooses" to date WM...not WM pursues AF. Since both are involved in the relationship, wouldnt it be logical to assume that BOTH should be held accountable?"
Wow, you didn't sound like this before, when you tried to put all of the responsibility on the WM by saying:
"...when it comes to dating. Men (all race) are typically the pursuer. Can you deny this?"
But then you (conveniently) never responded to my point:
"So you buy into the stereotypes when it is convenient for you- asian women are "china dolls" and quiet and reserved when it comes to dating. In actuality, you are shooting yourself in the foot with this argument because, while it is true that men are still the pursuers today, it is still the WOMAN'S CHOICE of who she picks to be her date/mate. This is a VERY IMPORTANT point. These Asian women are CHOOSING to be with white men out of all the men available to them (even though most of the men they know/meet are asian, they grew up in asian neighborhoods and went to school (esp. college) with many asians and have closer ties to their culture with asian men). Yes, white men (like any man) IS the pursuer, but the woman is still the one who CHOOSES out of the pool of men, so asian women are obviously CHOOSING the white men over the asian men." If you believe that men are the pursuers, then why are you not willing to admit that this follows? Do these white male pursuers force the asian females into relationships?
You said:
"a) You stated that when a person dislikes their ethnic feature, they are disliking themselves (as you believe many AF do). I pointed out the ethnic features of whites and blacks that have been altered to achieve 'beauty'. Not surprisingly, you completely dismissed that modifying the color of an ethnically white skin was a form of self-hatred...and your reason is b/c the change is not as radical."
No, that was not my reason. Not surprisingly, you didn't read the WHOLE response. Although I did say:
"This is FAR less invasive and radical than getting cosmetic surgery on your eyes to PERMANENTLY REMOVE an ETHNIC feature. "
IMMEDIATELY following (in the very next few sentences, in fact) I said:
"However, if you still wish to compare the two, do you think white people are trying to look black by tanning themselves? If so, they would likely want to get very deep, very dark tans, which they do not. Are white people trying to look Asian by tanning themselves? If so, they would likely apply various lotions and chemicals to change the hue of their skin to match that of Asians, which they do not. The ideal tan for white people is a golden/bronze color skin that is unattainable by most asians or blacks, although perhaps by Latinos. Your argument fails here." Why did you intentionally ignore the rest of my response?
You said:
"Why should this matter?...the point is that many WF and WM are ALTERING their ethnically pale colored skin."
The key point is that they are not altering their skin color to look like another race or to conform to another race's beauty standards.
You said:
"I had mentioned that blacks possess ethnically nappy hair, and many have also concealed this under wigs and weaves. You stated that, "Yes, this is a very obvious case of racial self-hatred." Then I must ask you...Oprah Winfrey wear weaves (I know b/c I've seen pictures of her hair before and during the show)...is she a self-hater? As a matter of fact, a very large percentage of BF you see in public are wearing weaves or wigs...are they ALL self-haters?"
Many of them are, yes. Just ask a black woman why she wears a weave and how many hours a day she struggles with her hair if she doesn't wear it "naturally". Ask them why they do it. It is a fashion that has been in vogue since the slave days. Once again, you ignored the rest of my response, so I'll just paste it in for you:
"Yes, and the issue of racial self-hatred has been around for black people ever since they were emancipated-- black people were more accepted if they were mulatto, so full-black people would try to straighten their hair or bleach their skin so it would be lighter to gain this appearance. Even in modern times, black media (ebony, essence, jet, BET, and of course rap videos and hip-hop culture) portrays light-skinned black women with Caucasian features (or even hispanic, or white women) as the ideal beauty and not dark-skinned black women with black features. Black women who try to achieve this standard of beauty often wear weaves, straighten their hair, dye it blonde or red, bleach their skin, and wear colored contacts. Yes, this is a very obvious case of racial self-hatred that is acknowledged and openly discussed in the black community."
You said:
"b) You ridicule AF for wearing color contacts and dyeing our hairs. An equally large percentage of blacks and whites females also wear color contacts and have dyed hair. You argue that for whites it is acceptable b/c they are not modifying their ethnic feature. Isn't it interesting that your logic enables you to conclude that...although all these females are modifying the same physical features, only the AF and BF deserve the 'self-hater' label?"
You tell me- how often do you see white people with hazel/green/blue-eyes wearing BROWN contacts or dying their hair black? WHY DO YOU think it is, then, that many Asian people DO wear blue/green contacts and dye their hair brown or blonde? It is obviously because they are trying to conform to the white beauty standard and not vice-versa.
You said:
"I have mentioned MANY times (in my response to you, and others) that the majority of AF do NOT despise AM...which also includes, not disliking AM appearance, and not perceiving AM as weak."
40% of Asian women end up marrying white men. You explain it then.
You said:
3. You ignore information you do not want to hear.
"a) I (and many other AF on this forum) have mentioned that we DO NOT possess a desire to look white. You refuse to accept this, and continue to ask questions such as..."do you find YOUR asian features less attractive than the white features of a white women?" and "...would you think of your future son (with a white man) as less attractive if he inherited more of your asian features..." You asked me these questions once, and I replied. A few days later, you asked me the EXACT same questions AGAIN. Is this a case of involunatarily memory lost or intentional memory suppression?"
Actually, you ONLY answered the questions I actually asked ONCE. I asked if you PERSONALLY felt this way, and you responded in a general way without including yourself in the response. Only after asking you about this did you explain why.
You said:
"b) In the previous post, you've quoted my comments...
"How about answering this question...what is more common...a drop-dead gorgeous woman with a devastately handsome man? or a drop-dead gorgeous woman with an extremely wealthy man?...women are attracted to security...more so than appearance."
Interestingly, you've omitted the "why are there so many pretty AF with ugly WM". You assumed that AF dislikes our ethnically features, therefore we dislike AM appearance...but you have refuse to acknowledge or explain why there are so many dog-ugly WM with pretty AF."
You are only pointing to the minority of women on the planet earth who are considered "gorgeous". Yes, it is true that women of all races who are gorgeous SOMETIMES work on looks alone, which means not working or not getting an education, but instead relying on a rich (but unattractive) man to take care of them. You might ask why they can't find a rich and attractive man. Easy answer: the rich and attractive man can easily find a well-educated and gorgeous woman.
You said:
4) In your initial post you try to come off as a concerned white guy who is seriously trying to understands the issues resulting in the increasing number of AF/WM relationships...you even asked for AF opinions. Since then AF have stated personal opinions on this issue, yet you have dismissed all theories that did not conform to yours. If a person is TRULY interesting in exploring AA gender divide issue, wouldnt that person be eager to hear and try to understand the AA perspective...rather than arguing against them?"
I am open to this discussion, which is why I am participating in it and not sitting by and not commenting. I posted because I wanted to start and participate in a discussion, not sit passively by. I am only "arguing against" contradictions that I see in other's posts. And I am asking the tough questions. Does this make me less open-minded? I don't think so, that's what i did in my very first post and that's what I continue to do.
You said:
"Matt, you are a very intelligent guy...you caught our attention when you pretended to be the white guy who was 'victimized by AF and concerned of the gendering dividing issues'. Your devious plans to increasing friction between AM and AF have worked...look how the bashing between AF and AM have dramatically increased since your initial posting. So once again..the white guy wins?"
Cheap shot because I am white. If I had been an asian man, I'm sure you would've dismissed me as a "bitter AM who has been rejected by AFs and so is lashing out", but because I'm white you say I have a "devious plan" like the big bad white guy. Whatever you can think of to dismiss my arguments instead of continuing to face them, eh?
meme0114@yahoo.com
Matt Richardson
Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 14:01:52 (PST)
proud to be an asian girl:
I agree with your attitude towards Matt Richardson. Many white people think that the world revolves around them. However, I do disagree with you on one aspect. Unfortunately the whole world does revolve around them...or at least many countries in Asia do as many other posters have said.
Asian Female
Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 12:13:07 (PST)
If AFs don't really want to look like white women, why the huge amount of eyelid surgeries?
?
Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 09:13:56 (PST)
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