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ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
IS THE AA GENDER DIVIDE REAL?
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:05:46 PM)
sian American women are abandoning AA men by the millions. Young AA women seek out any race of men but their own. Women like Amy Tan write books and make movies that dump on AA men and glorify Asian women in relationships with white men.
That's the perception of many AA men.
On what do they blame this state of affairs? Brainwashing by media that play up white men while cutting Asian men off at the knees. Desire for payback by AA women who feel slighted by their families and Asian society. Large numbers of non-Asian men with blind fetishes for Asian women. Some even acknowledge that Asian men are often too fixed in their ideas of how a woman should look and behave, causing many AF to feel devalued.
Other Asian Americans see AF outmarriage rates as merely a natural state of affairs for a 4% minority population that includes many recent immigrants. The outmarriage gender gap will narrow as growing Asian population centers provide ready access to bigger pools of singles. Besides outmarriage isn't the same as rejecting one's racial identity, they argue. Many AF who outmarry retain strong identification with their Asian identity.
Is there really an Asian American gender divide? Is so, what's behind it? If not, what's behind the perception?
This interactive article is closed to new input.
Discussions posted during the past year remain available for browsing.
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
Geoff,
you wrote
"Now, non-racist, reasonable white people abhor this behavior and frown on it. I've had them tell me. In fact, they probably get a kick out of watching it."
Geoff you have to keep in mind white people have insecurities too. White does not mean superiority. Many of the guys who go to asians literally would have no place else to go for companionship. Older straight and gay guys are frightened of being alone and marginalized. Yes you do have your Hank Lewis type of person who appears genuine and truly respect asians, but then you have guys who would not be dating if it weren't for asian women and men.
They don't want to grow old without someone to care about them, talk to them and make love with.
I was at my gym sitting in the sauna when this beautiful asian lady with a wonderful smile walked in and sat next to me. She immediately caught my eye.
We talked briefly but then she got a little scared. She told me that her boyfriend gets jealous when she talks to other men. When she left the sauna she went over to her boyfriend and the guy looked awful. I mean he was tall and looked like herman munster from that old tv show.
I'll bet you a million bucks he doesn't like for her to talk to other people except for asian women who speak her particular language. He's probably verbally abusive and threatens to go to the INS if she even says hello to another man.
It's sad but it's also a reality. A type of modern day psychological human slavery. It's a shame.
Political Observer
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 09:42:16 (PDT)
[167.230.38.7]
FOP:
In response to your comment: "But white men feel that they are entitled to white women." I am European American and I can tell you right now that I never felt like I was entitled to a European American woman, or any other woman for that matter. I never had trouble meeting, hooking up with, or dating any women, but that doesn't mean that I think I was entitled to a woman.
Maybe it was growing up seeing Tom and Helen Willis on the Jeffersons, or seeing various mixed race couples at the University where my father was a professor, but I never felt that I had to "stick with Caucasian" women out of "Ethnic Pride." To be quite frank, I have never really cared if I saw a Caucasian Woman with a Black, Latin or Asian guy. If she and the guy seemed happy, then that was great, and if they didn't, well it really wasn't any of my business.
I don't endorse transethnic relationships based upon one person having "power" over the other--or the other person perceiving themselves as "better" than others of their ethnicity becuase of being in a relationship with a certain other ethnic group.
I've met Caucasian women who've said "Once you go Black, you never go back" and date only Black guys, regardless of how ugly or nasty some of them are. I've met trashy African American guys who think they're the shiznit becuase they have a "White" woman, but she's ugly and fat and somebody whom most men in general don't find desirable.
I've met Asian women who've said "Once you go Pink, you never go back" and date only Caucasian guys. I've met trashy Asian women who think they're the shiznit because they have a "White" guy, but he's ugly, fat, bald, has a hairy back and somebody whom most women in general wouldn't find desirable.
Individuals like that have serious issues and need help.
However, I've also met very attractive, intelligent and capable White women and men with Black, Asian, or Latin spouses/partners whose relationships are the pinnacle of stability and normality in this crazy world. My point: you can't generalize about transethnic or monoethnic relationships without knowing more information about the specific couples.
From what I've observed in the Metropolitan areas I've lived in and the colleges I've attended, while it may appear that AFs date out of their ethnic groups more than AMs do, the vast majority of AFs date and marry AMs. I think that using transethnic dating as being the be-all end-all of the "Asian American Gender Divide" is like treating every illness possible with an Aspirin. It doesn't make sense and it means that their are some other very real issues which are being overlooked.
AFs and AMs need to take a deep, long, honest look inside themselves, ask some hard questions and give some real answers. Blaming it all on AF out-dating is a cop-out in my opinion.
Hank Lewis
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 05:57:38 (PDT)
[161.159.4.21]
Geoff DB wrote:
"Have you ever really sat down and considered some of the possible reasons why many Asian women - who grow up with Asian guys, thereby, are not necessarily exposed only to negative media images - prefer to date men of other races?
Could it be attitude? How about Asian guys feeling that Asian women BELONG to them? How about sense of superiority?"
*********
Now I think I understand you a bit more. I've been wondering why you spend so much time in this forum, as a African American man. You simply are a person with EXTREMELY LOW SELF-ESTEEM.
I think you abhor being born black. I honestly believe that. I'm not trying to scorn you but rather feel bad for you. The AA man thinking the the AA women belonging to them? Ok. I can see a bit of that, but certainly no more than any other race of men; likely far less, given our situation. As for AA men feeling superior, I have no idea where you gained that distorted perception. Yes, many AA are horrible towards black people while looking up to White. I hate this attitude almost as much as you. But certainly, my friend, I will tell you we do not perceive ourselves as superior being AM. Being an AM I personally do feel like I have a better chance with many AF vs an average BM or even a WM, and of course the the average AM. Why? Because I have plenty to offer as a male. That includes professional success, good looks, height, etc. And likely less than 50% of AF are actually sellouts. That's still a lot. But I clearly do not think myself superior to anyone as a race. I consider myself fortunate; not high on myself. I've in fact always been lucky with the girls, be in Asian, White, etc. Your blanket statement clearly exposes your insecurity and your unquencheable thirst for females who in your minds are above you, including AF and WF. Such is the same dilemna facing many AF.
I believe you have a certain hiearchy of race in your mind. First White, than Asian and lastly Black, your own race. Such is sad and makes you the same as some of the depressing sell-out Asian women that I had the unfortunate experience in dating and bedding. During these experiences, initially I felt insulted, then wanted to understand and finally had only pity for these people. I broke up with these girls and I certainly never thought I'd owned them. On the contrary I explained to more than one AF they should focus on dating on WM, because they would not make good mates for AM. Yes, these girls would never look at a BM.
IT'S GENUINELY A SAD THING TO DESPISE ONE'S OWN RACE!!! I cannot stress that more. That one sentence really says it all, unfortunately.
I wish I can help people like you more. I do need to paint this picture in your face, because otherwise many like you will simply live in hatred/envy and look for sympathy; many AM do the same by the way; i'm not singling you and the AF out. I just think you really need to check your statements because you have a disease and it's not good to spread it. You should seek some counseling, perhaps from friends and/or professionals. There's just too many people like you. You people are like poison. If you can't help yourself at least do your best NOT to poison the rest of us.
Lastly, my girlfriend is a White girl. I did not date her for her race, nor do I feel she's above me. IR relationships are very natural. It's only when you can't stand your own race when you really have a problem. I've said enuff!
NYC AM
Monday, September 16, 2002 at 21:55:30 (PDT)
[24.90.169.63]
Since I can't post in the "Woman to Woman" forum, I would like to point out how insulting it is that AFs don't care if AMs call AFs sell-outs, but AFs care what WFs think of them? It is obvious that AFs in some way admit they are sell-outs because they made no effort to refute all these AMs calling them sell-outs. What puzzles me is that AFs are fawning over these mediocre WMs, and at the same time, expect WFs to be buddy-buddy with AFs. Imagine if AMs are with WFs, and expect WMs to be courteous to the AM/WF couples. In the mind of a WF, if she is with her WM boyfriend, she wouldn't want an AF nearby to seduce the WF's man. I leave this for AFs to contemplate.
Give and Take
Monday, September 16, 2002 at 20:48:16 (PDT)
[66.19.193.42]
Geoff,
There's no beef between us man. I do not describe myself here because I desperately want the world to know that I am all that. I just thought I was being honest when I first posted -- I had no idea that people would start psychoanalyzing my motives for posting about myself. I'm done with this stuff.
I would also like to mention that you seem to operate under the tired and overused assumption that Asian women are turned off by Asian men becuase of AMs' sense of entitlement to AF. Based on my own personal experience, I genuinely believe that this is NOT true anymore. Young Asian men do not give a crap about that. That shit almost completely died out with the last generation. I think that the reason why white men have in the past had better success with Asian women is because they are more aggressive. They don 't take rejection to seriously, and keep on trying. Also is the added fact that in past decades xenophobia was in full swing, thanks to the numerous wars the United States had waged in Asia. white women were afraid of us. These days as the xenophobia wears off and Asian men have adopted American dating patterns (being more bold), one naturally sees the disparity shrink. Btw, keep in mind that dating white women is not my sole goal in life. I love Asian and ALL women, and I was simply making a point.
Also, you're right to say that if all Asian men were like me Asian women would never leave us for white men. However, I feel that that is an unfair assessment, as I probably represent the top 5% of men REGARDLESS of race. I am an anomaly. If I were 5'8" and 150 pounds with a $55,000 salary, I would be at a clear disadvantage to Whitey. That is because we live in a racist society. As a black man, I'm sure you know that. If an Asian or white woman were to choose between you and a white man of similar attractiveness, income, and status, they would choose him, 9 times out of 10. It's sad, isn't it? As a minority man, I've had to come to terms with that fact too. Perhaps that's the reason why I was so motivated to excel at everything I did.
PS: Btw, having a double mocha would NOT calm anyone down. You do realize the effect caffiene has on the human body, don't you? Quaaludes or horse tranquliizers usually do the trick, although I don't speak from personal experience.
Handsome Playboy
Monday, September 16, 2002 at 13:33:32 (PDT)
[128.253.186.46]
Geoff DB wrote:
"Not anymore. Their attitude has changed considerably, because white women have made them change. Professional white women tend to be some of the most independent, liberally minded individuals. There still is a glass ceiling and lower pay, but they make their own relationship choices."
Actually the pay gap does not exist any more for the same work. All studies also indicate girls enter college at a higher rate than boys and they also perform better academically better as well. They definitely make their own relationship choices as women no longer need a man to bring home the bacon. Times are good to be a woman.
"They date black, Asian and Hispanic men in increasing numbers. White men know they no longer own white women. White women are up for grabs and white guys know it."
This is definitely true. Isn't it ironic in this day and age with all the complaints of racism, white people are probably the least racist of all ethnic groups in the US.
Deng Ai
Monday, September 16, 2002 at 13:33:30 (PDT)
[198.6.73.7]
Korean boy wrote:
"Would an asian man be more successful in approaching a non-asian women compare to asian women? Since, some of us believe that there is a gender divide and asian women will not give us a time a day."
I can say generally, it is a lot easier to date WFs than to date Americanized AFs, but that depends on the individual. It's obviously easier to date someone you already know, as opposed to a stranger regardless of race. I don't think it's so much that all AFs will not give AMs the time of the day but rather, there are a lot more AMs looking at a limited pool of AFs that will give AMs a chance. Which means ultimately, you'll have to settle for less than what you'd normally get, especially since the more educated AFs tend to date WMs exclusively.
"Not to get too personal but, Deng Ai do you date non-asian women mostly?"
Yes. The closest thing to an AF I've dated was this girl that was 1/4th Chinese. She looked Italian, and I didn't know she was part Chinese until she told me later.
"To be honest I never had an non-asian girl friend . So, it is kind of scary for me to venture into the unknown."
It's a lot easier to date WFs (not sure about other ethnic groups, since once they get to know you as you, instead of the stereotypical AM they might have of you (let's face it, everyone has stereotypical views of everyone else). Some kind of common activities would be very good. I'd suggest doing some volunteering work, take a class in martial arts, or anything along these lines as you will find a lot of young WFs. You don't necessarily approach it from a romantic perspective, make friends if nothing else. Expand your entwork, and before you know it, you'll have plenty of possibilities. Anyway, good luck.
Deng Ai
Monday, September 16, 2002 at 09:22:30 (PDT)
[198.6.73.7]
AC,
I noticed that your friend would be considered "elite" regardless of race. I think doing anything academic at MIT is damn good.
What if he was selling TVs at BestBuy?
Sorry, but I need more convincing than that.
Korean Boy,
Most of the time, when you look out, it's by choice. From what your saying, AM should start looking out because they don't have a choice. Although I think it's for the better anyway, it's still sad when someone who isn't Asian looks at it.
huu76
Sunday, September 15, 2002 at 19:47:09 (PDT)
[64.231.98.171]
Handsome Playboy:
You need to get yourself a double mocha coffee, relax on your deck and stop looking at it as though I resent you, because I don't. Where does all this player-hater BS come from? I never initiated that. I'm glad there are women probably lined up to take you out to dinner. I have a great deal of respect for Asian guys.
By the way you describe yourself (and I don't need to repeat the details), if there were more Asian guys who look like you projected in the media, we probably wouldn't have such a divide between Asian men and women.
Society doesn't get the chance to see Asian guys who look like you. You're not projected in romantic, daring roles. It's no wonder why many Asian women feel the need to outdate in order to get a "real" man - one who will listen to her concerns and pay attention to her sensibilities.
I maintain that part of the reason many Asian women outdate is attitude. There are subtle things that Asian guys do to turn Asian women off.
Here's an example of the point I'm making:
Asian guy approaches an attractive Asian lady at a club and assumes she's into Asian men. You start your conversation by asking her name, where she lives and how is she employed. After a few minutes of civil exchange, rather than continue the conversation to find out more about her social tastes and background, etc., you start looking deep into her eyes and move closer. Maybe some light touching and coziness. You do all the taking, assuming that she doesn't have much to say. You then try to set up a formal date. Some women might like this approach, but many will be turned off.
Now, Handsome Playboy, some men are passive and some are aggressive in their approach. Men of all races have different ways to approach women, but when you assume that someone is into you because of your race or your good looks, then it's natural for a guy's self love to be revealed.
Do you see my point?
Oh, by the way, I do get your point about black and white guys over physical conditioning. Point well made. There's no practical purpose for all that muscle. I go to the gym 4 days a week, but they're generally moderate workouts.
Geoff DB
GeoffDB02@aol.com
Sunday, September 15, 2002 at 16:48:51 (PDT)
[172.191.251.134]
FOP:
"But white men feel that they are entitled to white women."
Not anymore. Their attitude has changed considerably, because white women have made them change. Professional white women tend to be some of the most independent, liberally minded individuals. There still is a glass ceiling and lower pay, but they make their own relationship choices. They date black, Asian and Hispanic men in increasing numbers. White men know they no longer own white women. White women are up for grabs and white guys know it.
Geoff DB
GeoffDB02@aol.com
Sunday, September 15, 2002 at 16:02:30 (PDT)
[172.191.251.134]
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