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ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
IS THE AA GENDER DIVIDE REAL?
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:05:45 PM)
sian American women are abandoning AA men by the millions. Young AA women seek out any race of men but their own. Women like Amy Tan write books and make movies that dump on AA men and glorify Asian women in relationships with white men.
That's the perception of many AA men.
On what do they blame this state of affairs? Brainwashing by media that play up white men while cutting Asian men off at the knees. Desire for payback by AA women who feel slighted by their families and Asian society. Large numbers of non-Asian men with blind fetishes for Asian women. Some even acknowledge that Asian men are often too fixed in their ideas of how a woman should look and behave, causing many AF to feel devalued.
Other Asian Americans see AF outmarriage rates as merely a natural state of affairs for a 4% minority population that includes many recent immigrants. The outmarriage gender gap will narrow as growing Asian population centers provide ready access to bigger pools of singles. Besides outmarriage isn't the same as rejecting one's racial identity, they argue. Many AF who outmarry retain strong identification with their Asian identity.
Is there really an Asian American gender divide? Is so, what's behind it? If not, what's behind the perception?
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Discussions posted during the past year remain available for browsing.
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
Hank Lewis: Read your post and wanted to ask you a question, do you think the AA gender divide exists? Or is it just a figment of AM’s imagination? While I respect your opinions (they are lucid and well-presented), I find them to be a bit naive and don’t think they’re particularly accurate. Over the last couple of weeks there have been a slew of postings from AM’s describing situations, anecdotes and incidents of AF’s slighting AM’s or parading their WM companions. There have been corrobating posts from other females that know of an AF who ONLY dates WM’s and have no interest or willingness to even consider AM’s as a romantic partner.
You describe several situations of WF’s that chase after BM’s, BM’s that chase after WF’s, AF’s that chase after WM’s but no mention of WM’s that chase after AF’s, why not? I can think of three WM friends that I personally know that fall into that category. Now from what I can divine from your earlier posts, you are involved with an AF, have a couple of degrees and live in the Houston area. I would not even begin to claim to understand what your relationship is like with your AF but my assumption is that you two just met and fell for each other as human beings. My point being is even though you mean well, you may be a bit biased in this discussion.
This particular board exists to discuss the potential issue of an AA gender divide and I think AM’s are just venting a bit as to what they’ve felt and experienced in their lives. From my personal point of view, there are tons of great AF’s that are bright, pretty and open to dating whomever, in the same fashion I do. However, there are a substantial number (and I can’t give you hard statistics) of AF’s that I have run into that only date WM’s and would not give an AM the time of day and those are the ones I find disturbing. I also believe that this sort of behavior is much less common in AM’s. I could point you over to a Bay area website with a slew of personal ads from AF’s (and WF’s) that explicitly and pointedly ask for responses from only WM’s. I can’t speak for Houston, I can’t speak for the universities you’ve been to, but I don’t think they are an accurate cross-section of what AM’s experience in the US when it comes to dating and romantic relationships. Many AM’s have voiced a bit of disgust when they see an AF latching onto a WM just because he is a WM and acting as if he were a far superior catch to an AM regardless of looks, educational level or professional success. Can you honestly say as a WM you have walked in the shoes of AM’s and can say the AA gender divide does not exist?
It reminds me of times when I will discuss with my WM/WF friends of any situation where I feel I’ve been slighted in a racist manner. Not all racism manifests itself in such drastic actions as a black man being dragged behind a truck or a Vincent Chin being beaten to death. There are much more numerous and subtle examples of racism that exist and when I describe them to my white friends, they good-naturedly ask if I’m imagining these issues for they (and rightfully so since they are my friends) can’t understand how anything racist like that could happen. What I’m pointing out is that just because a white person in the US doesn’t personally see or witness racist behavior, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I’ve been called “chink” while minding my own business at the mall, had kids pull the ‘ol slant eyes as they pass by in a car, have had people snicker at me on the basketball court or track assuming that I have no athletic skills because of my skin color and eyes. These types of situations probably have never happened to you so do you think that racism doesn’t exist? If you’re not an AM and haven’t experienced what AM’s are telling you they’ve experienced, can you say that the AA gender divide does not exist? The situations that you described above where BM chase after WF’s and vice-versa would make me think that the person most likely able to understand the romantic life of an AM would probably be a BF.
I know, life is not fair and as long as AM’s exist in the US (as far as I’m concerned) they will have to deal with any of these gender divide issues. Don’t take these stories from AM’s as any sort of attack on your personal relationship with your AF. They are generalizations and anecdotal but given that we AM’s can not meet and interview every AF/WM couple, that it’s the best we can do to commiserate. We can discuss the causes for this behaviour in the US but for every slight that AF’s have taken in the US as women, there are probably twice as many that AM’s have taken. Take a look at US television and movies which have a huge impact on the population. AF’s are represented in a far greater number and in a far more positive light than AM’s. How often do you see an AM on television that doesn’t know kung fu? So if anyone should understand the shit that an AM must have to deal with in the US, it should be an AF who have AM’s as their fathers and brothers. And any AF that would fall into the category that AM’s have railed about will not be very forthcoming when pressed, they’ll say they prefer WM or have more in common with WM’s but for every AF that’s fairly Americanized, I guarantee you that there is an AM of the same mindset.
Hank, I respect your point of view but in the end, I don’t agree with you... But respectfully, I hope that your relationship with your AF works out great because I have nothing against intra-racial relationships. Just people who don’t take pride about who they are no matter what the majority says...
Ronbo (Bay Area/SF)
howudoinsf@hotmail.com
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 at 00:09:37 (PDT)
[12.81.64.77]
Deng Ai:
"Isn't it ironic in this day and age with all the complaints of racism, white people are probably the least racist of all ethnic groups in the"
Well, I'm not going to go that far for now. Keep in mind, my generalization focuses on "professional white women".
There are good and bad white, black and Asian people. White people are not evil by nature. Minority vs. minority racism is very cruel and rampant. However, white racists tend to be greatly encouraged by minority vs. minority racism.
We live in a racist society and there are only some creative ways to circumvent it, but not entirely.
Geoff DB
GeoffDB02@aol.com
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 22:28:25 (PDT)
[172.157.188.62]
Political Observer:
"It's sad but it's also a reality. A type of modern day psychological human slavery. It's a shame."
Hell yea, that's sad.
I've deliberately narrowed my comments to focus on black/Asians dating and marriage, but what you've said shows societal victimization/intimidation of Asian immigrants and demonstrates how much Asian immigrant women tend to be used. It's sinister.
American soldiers marry a considerable number of Asian women and bring them to the U.S. to become citizens, but that scenario would probably be different than the one you described.
Geoff DB
GeoffDB02@aol.com
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 22:22:56 (PDT)
[172.157.188.62]
Handsome Playboy:
No, we don't have a beef with each other. I respect you and wish there were clearer Asian roles so that society stop getting get the impression that most Asian guys are 5'5" and nerdy.
Thanks for the dialogue. I learned some things from you.
"having a double mocha would NOT calm anyone down."
Well, to be honest, I usually get a decaf mocha. Caffeine's bad for ya. I only drink coffee for the taste, not the energy :)
Take care, dude. Hopefully, we'll talk again.
Geoff DB
GeoffDB02@aol.com
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 22:16:34 (PDT)
[172.157.188.62]
NYC AM:
There must have been some statement that I made that caused you to go off on me like that.
If I'm such a hater of myself and my race, then doesn't that make me an angry black guy? If I'm an angry black guy, then shouldn't I hate Asians and want to see your demise? You're not making sense.
NYC AM, you took a step down in this discussion. Since I don't read your posts anyway, I don't know what I have been missing.
Perhaps there was some slight against Asian guys that I, unintentionally, made that pissed you off. Whatever it was, you could be man enough to explain it instead of going off and telling me that I remind you of some of the Asian women you've banged. That's really low.
"I've been wondering why you spend so much time in this forum"
It takes 3-5 minutes to compose a post and I average 3 or so posts every few days. What is this "so much time"?
"I think you abhor being born black. I honestly believe that. I'm not trying to scorn you but rather feel bad for you."
What I abhor is the way society marginalizes my race and then refuses to make distinctions between good black people and bad black people. You remind me of someone in our society who behaves this way.
"As for AA men feeling superior, I have no idea where you gained that distorted perception."
I gained it from Asian guys like you. NYC AM, you contradict yourself. Let me show you how. First, you state that you don't see yourself as superior, then you go on to say:
"...On the contrary I explained to more than one AF they should focus on dating on WM, because they would not make good mates for AM."
Consequently, you fail the consistency test. You view yourself as better than WM.
"Your blanket statement clearly exposes your insecurity and your unquencheable thirst for females who in your minds are above you, including AF and WF."
It's better to say you have doubts about my generalizations, rather than make a poor attempt at pyscho-analysis. You can't deduct that much based on several posts on one particular subject. Anyway, you forgot to ask me if I love my mother. Or, whether I believe if Abraham Lincoln was a better president than George Washington. Come on now, at least try to administer a fair psychological exam.
"Such is sad and makes you the same as some of the depressing sell-out Asian women that I had the unfortunate experience in dating and bedding"
If a black man reminds you of some of the Asian women you've dated, then you have subconscious alternative tendencies. Are you sure those where Asian women you were bedding?
"You should seek some counseling, perhaps from friends and/or professionals."
Why spend good money on a professional psychologist when you've, apparently, got it all figured out. I guess I should go get me a good Asian or white woman and ride her around in a convertible.
"...my girlfriend is a White girl. I did not date her for her race, nor do I feel she's above me."
Oh yea, she's better than you alright. Better, more intelligent, cleaner.
Thanks for the free advise. I certainly wouldn't have paid for it.
Geoff DB
GeoffDB02@aol.com
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 22:11:22 (PDT)
[172.157.188.62]
Geoff DB is a complete self-hater!
You wrote:"My sisters date black men, exclusively. No white, Asian or Hispanic guys meet their interest. My sisters are typic black women who hold that black men belong with black women.
Sounds familiar?
Asian guys believe that Asian women should date and marry them, exclusively.
Perhaps, in this respect, Asian guys and black women have something in common."
Why do you hate Black women so much? You're a bigot against your own race, my man! It's quite obvious. You have much in common with the Sellout AF we all diss on this forum. You need to get off this site.
Geoff DB - get lost!!
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 21:26:52 (PDT)
[24.90.169.63]
To: Geoff DB
“I maintain that part of the reason many Asian women outdate is attitude. There are subtle things that Asian guys do to turn Asian women off.”
So you “maintain” that Asian women turn away from Asian men because of annoying things that we do? Do you “maintain” that all Asian men guilty of doing the annoying things where non-Asian men are not? Remember, the key word here is “all” if not all of us are guilty of this, then it’s individual.
You follow by this example:
“Asian guy approaches an attractive Asian lady at a club and assumes she's into Asian men. You start your conversation by asking her name, where she lives and how is she employed. After a few minutes of civil exchange, rather than continue the conversation to find out more about her social tastes and background, etc., you start looking deep into her eyes and move closer. Maybe some light touching and coziness. You do all the taking, assuming that she doesn't have much to say. You then try to set up a formal date. Some women might like this approach, but many will be turned off.”
Let’s replace the word “Asian” with the word “black.” Can that be possible? If so, then your example is not an explanation of anything specific of Asians, but rather people in general. I’m not sure why you would want to emphasize that “Asian men do so-and-so to Asian women” with an example like this. However, if your example is only applicable to Asian men, perhaps you can elucidate?
If anything, the example you pointed out least resembles the “assumptions” behind Asian men regarding Asian women. Asian men have least of the assumption that Asian women are interested in Asian men. How dare we otherwise? To some Asian women – not all, they’re too good for us. Further, what’s this about “maybe some light touching and coziness?” Aren’t Asian men historically chastised for being timid regarding dating? So where’s this “light touching and coziness” boldness coming from in your example?
Have you ever considered that the only thing all Asian men have in common is that we’re Asian, and that some Asian women who dislike us do so for the sole reason that we are Asian? No, of course they didn’t tell you that. But for every other reason they tell you, you will always be able to find Asian men who do not possess the traits those women complain about. So maybe the only thing about Asian men that annoys those Asian women is the only thing we Asian men have in common – that we’re Asian men. Can this be true?
There are Asian women prefer Asian men. There are Asian women who exclusively date Asian men. There are Asian women who will never consider anyone but an Asian man, just like there are Asian men who will never consider anyone but an Asian woman. So if what you “maintain” is true, then wouldn’t all Asian women be annoyed by us and turn away?
Hint: They tell you the good sounding reason like “Asian men do annoying things” (we can always find those who don’t) when the real reason is they just don’t want to be with an Asian man. There’s nothing wrong with preferences. Just don’t make all Asian men scapegoat.
I must admit I’m a little surprised that you, a self-proclaimed educated man, are buying into the “Asian men have a bad attitude” propaganda. No, you “maintain’ it. Some of us are guilty of it, sure, but are you – Geoff DB – going to go as far as to “maintain” that every single black man is a gentleman?
Repost
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 21:23:30 (PDT)
[66.92.1.200]
"AFs and AMs need to take a deep, long, honest look inside themselves, ask some hard questions and give some real answers. Blaming it all on AF out-dating is a cop-out in my opinion."
Opinion well-respected. But lets just say that if it were not for AF sellout out as the norm, we wouldn't be disgussing this all. Some things are better viewed as they are. This is not a cop-out. It's just speaking common sense.
But we do have an issue. Let's address it and dissect it all we want. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong at the same time. AF are to blame and AF are not. Either way we have an issue. It's better to see reality than to avoid it, even if you can circumvent it a million different ways.
NYC Asian guy
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 16:51:35 (PDT)
[208.252.30.254]
"However, I've also met very attractive, intelligent and capable White women and men with Black, Asian, or Latin spouses/partners whose relationships are the pinnacle of stability and normality in this crazy world. My point: you can't generalize about transethnic or monoethnic relationships without knowing more information about the specific couples. "
Excellent point! Lets not bash ALL in IR's. Of course there's enough of those other types in the AA society to have a pretty big issue, and hence this divide and this forum.
NYC Asian guy
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 16:47:14 (PDT)
[208.252.30.254]
"white people are probably the least racist of all ethnic groups in the US."
Kick yourself in the ASS for saying that, Deng Ai.
Historian
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 16:24:44 (PDT)
[208.48.177.3]
They date black, Asian and Hispanic men in increasing numbers. White men know they no longer own white women. White women are up for grabs and white guys know it."
This is definitely true. Isn't it ironic in this day and age with all the complaints of racism, white people are probably the least racist of all ethnic groups in the US.
Deng Ai
Really? I didn't know that. Offhand do you know the outmarriage rate with WFs? Or the rate at which they outdate?(although those figures are more elusive for just dating). I'd be curious to know if the rate at which AFs outmarry, around 50% last time we all checked. Don't tell me that WFs are outmarrying at more than that?! Please give me a break, brother Deng. BTW I always have your back in the relationships dept. so this is just one time we are not carbon copy thinking.
Brother Man
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 13:17:33 (PDT)
[152.163.189.198]
huu76,
I don't know what you think an assistant professor in math makes. But the salesman at Best Buy definitately makes more.
Unless he got professorship at an university and opportunity to apply for grants he will be living off his wife for the rest of his life. Unless she becomes a pro bono civil rights lawyers. Then they will be living on campus housing forever.
There is not much of a market for PhD in math if you haven't noticed.
So the AF was with him not for materialism. And I don't think math PhD have much status in society. So maybe she being an intelligent caring AF was attract to a similarly intelligent caring AM. Is that so shocking you cynic.
AC Dropout
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 12:21:24 (PDT)
[24.90.98.143]
Hank Lewis:
You do have a point. In hindsight, I should have phrased my previous comment as follows:
White women in general feel pressured/obliged to consider white men first/only as their potential mates by the society.
I know this for fact cos almost all white women I dated told me the society frowns upon WF/Non-WM relationships, but not on WM/Non-WF ones.
FOP
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 11:45:42 (PDT)
[139.95.250.2]
NYC AM,
you wrote to Geoff DB
"I think you abhor being born black. I honestly believe that. I'm not trying to scorn you but rather feel bad for you."
You'd make a superb clown in a circus. Yes Barnum and Bailey would love to have you in their show.
How would you feel if I feel pitty for you when the united states goes to war with china over taiwan and you're being discrimminated against.
Geoff seems like a well balanced intelligent african-american man who cares about asian issues and who is open to relations with asian women. Maybe he should become a unruly violent black guy and try to victimize your community and come on here cracking asian jokes. Yes that would be a more reasonable picture in your sordid mind right.
NYC AM, unless you have specific credible information about Geoff's psychology, why not leave professional analysis to the professionals? That seems fair to me.
Political Observer
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 10:57:53 (PDT)
[167.230.38.7]
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