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ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
IS THE AA GENDER DIVIDE REAL?
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:05:43 PM)
sian American women are abandoning AA men by the millions. Young AA women seek out any race of men but their own. Women like Amy Tan write books and make movies that dump on AA men and glorify Asian women in relationships with white men.
That's the perception of many AA men.
On what do they blame this state of affairs? Brainwashing by media that play up white men while cutting Asian men off at the knees. Desire for payback by AA women who feel slighted by their families and Asian society. Large numbers of non-Asian men with blind fetishes for Asian women. Some even acknowledge that Asian men are often too fixed in their ideas of how a woman should look and behave, causing many AF to feel devalued.
Other Asian Americans see AF outmarriage rates as merely a natural state of affairs for a 4% minority population that includes many recent immigrants. The outmarriage gender gap will narrow as growing Asian population centers provide ready access to bigger pools of singles. Besides outmarriage isn't the same as rejecting one's racial identity, they argue. Many AF who outmarry retain strong identification with their Asian identity.
Is there really an Asian American gender divide? Is so, what's behind it? If not, what's behind the perception?
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
Geoff DB,
I can understand where you're going with your reply to Repost when you asked if,
"you could prove that Asian guys, generally, tend to treat open-minded black guys with the same friendliness and hospitality that you extend to open-minded white guys."
First off let me just say the fact that your willing to become friends with AMs is great. I think the world needs more people like yourself. Having said that, how many people like yourself are there in the world? Sure there are plenty of people who hang around in mixed race groups. There's also a lot that don't. It's human nature to gravitate towards a group with similar characteristics, interests, and backgrounds. This isn't anything new and I'm sure you know this already.
Let's face it. When people who group themselves in their own circle of friends, more then likely they'll start stereotyping other groups. This isn't rocket science. My point is, people in general when grouped together with a common trait will tend to draw and nurture some kind of distinction about themselves from another group. Something to identify themselves with or just say this is how we stand out. These differences are formed by our own personal experiences (personal, media...etc). This phenomena has nothing to do with just Asians, Blacks, Whites, Hispanics...etc. It's ubiquitous and universal. This goes back to when you said Asians tend to make blanket statements about blacks. On the flip side of the coin, I know for a definate fact that non-Asians have their own blanket statements of Asians. Some people hold onto these differences some people don't take it that seriously. It all depends on their level of beliefs and commitment to these distinctions. You obviously at one point felt these distinctions weren't all that important.
My suggestion would be to take a step back for a second and take a look at the situation. How many times have you been burnt by AMs? Is it possible that these same AMs have been burnt the same number of times an in the same ways from other BMs? Sure there are some AMs that won't bother trying but there's also some BMs that won't bother to try either. It goes both ways. You yourself said you were "unable to paint a kind picture of Asian male attitude". By doing this I hope you can see that your doing exactly what these people you've had bad experiences with are doing to you. The AMs that you approach have their own conclusions about BMs. You try and become friends with one. You get burnt because they have their own views. So you draw your own conclusions about AMs. Doesn't really help the situation much does it?
Growing up I experienced a lot of racism from both blacks and whites. That didn't stop me from becoming friends with the people around me. I'm not saying if all this is right or wrong, I'm just offering a possible explanation to what you've experienced.
Just keep in mind that when you become friends with someone or date someone. Your not befriending or dating that whole group of people. Just that one individual. That's all we are, every single person is an individual. This is just my interpretation and Repost please correct me if I'm wrong but that's why he stated that "all Asian men have in common is that we’re Asian". We ALL go through life with our own experiences, thoughts, and ideas but eventhough we may form our own group views we're still individuals. I'm sure you see or have seen that at one point, otherwise you wouldn't of gone through the trouble of trying to be friends with these AMs.
Perhaps if you wanted more AM friends you might want to take a look going to places where BMs and AMs hang out together. It might not be common where you are but I'm sure it's no unheard of.
You wanted proof. I'm sorry I don't think there's a single person in this world that can offer you that. What you asked for would be just about as close to impossible as you can get and isn't a very realistic request. Suppose you did get your proof. What would it really matter. We're still all individuals so that doesn't guarantee that your going to have good experiences with all AMs. Rather then the proof though look for an understanding. Ask yourself, why is the situation is the way it is? Nobody is born with hate and obviously you don't buy it because you said that you "DO NOT dislike Asian guys". There must be a reason...
Proud 2 b Azn (AM)
Friday, September 20, 2002 at 10:32:04 (PDT)
[64.228.63.174]
[You guys are getting way off topic. --Ed]
Posted on the AF/WM board by a Chinese girl living in Hong Kong:
'Heya people ;) I'm a Chinese gal, 17, and I live in Hong Kong. I dunno - I just think caucasian guys are hot - I mean... lol, way cuter than Chinese guys.
People say I'm hot n stuff... well I just kinda fall for blond hair, blue eyes lol. Actually, I really think that Chinese guys are kinda ugly."
why would a girl living in china all her life find white guys hotter than chinese guys?? i don't understand.
???
Friday, September 20, 2002 at 07:41:36 (PDT)
[206.34.216.7]
Geoff DB: Haven't had a chance to catch up with all your posts (since I'm wasting enough time here already) but you bring up some very interesting points, kudos to you...
Ronbo (Bay Area/SF)
howudoinsf@hotmail.com
Thursday, September 19, 2002 at 23:15:40 (PDT)
[12.81.78.77]
Repost: I’ve been out in the Bay area for a little over three years now and spent most of it living in Contra Costa county. I’ve always worked in downtown SF and now live in Pacific Heights since (thankfully!) rents have come way down. I’m pretty certain that in my earlier posting I did not say that there are more AF/non-AM couples than AF/AM couples, just that there were a substantial number. And yes, I have seen more AM/WF couples since living in the City, but I don’t think the number would even come close to the opposite pairing! And I do understand your point that we as AM are really not losing out when AF’s choose to ignore us...
Hank Lewis: My response to you the other day was the result of several posts of yours that I have read over the last couple of weeks (since you’re quite prolific) and one common thread I saw in them was a frequent comparison to other IR relationships and you also seemed to imply that what AM’s often experienced when it came to negative interactions with AF/WM relationships, could be the result of being overly sensitive. Which is why I directly asked you about your position on the AA GD.
A lot of AM’s on this board (and other boards) have described being treated poorly when around AF/WM couples. We’ve described encountering AF’s that will only date WM’s and will actively rule out AM’s out as romantic partners. A lot of these AM’s have been relieved to hear others tell the same tales so they understand that they aren’t alone when it comes to these experiences. And surprisingly, there have been very few rebuttals from other Asians, period. There have been some harsh words used to describe these women but the saddest part about this whole issue is that this criticism is being directed towards the women who are our sisters, our relatives and our friends. And we don’t even always understand why they behave this way. I saw one posting describe this AF anti-AM behaviour as “our dirty little secret” and I would have to believe that if the AA GD truly exists, here’s a good reason why.
I have one sister who is married to an Italian guy, one sister dating a Jewish fellow and one female cousin married to an Irish lad. Out of the three, one wears green contact lenses and is unhappily married. Now does she wear the contact lenses to be less Asian? Did she marry the WM because she thought it would make her more accepted or so she could have hapa children? Did she make a mistake? Not sure but my guess is probably to all of the above... I had a wonderful three year relationship with a WF and it wasn’t because she was white, it was because we made a great couple and we loved each other.
The AA GD exists because you choose to date only people of a certain race and because you choose to not date people of another race. My life would be a lot easier if this disparity didn’t exist at all but like racism, you often get forced to confront these issues. Last month I got into a heated argument with a cabbie who leaned out the window and let me know that “these damn Chinamen don’t know how to drive a mechanized vehicle, etc...” If you took all the words that began with F and A out of my conversation, I wouldn’t have had much to say... If I had a choice, we wouldn’t be even discussing the above but it’s important that if the AA GD exists, we air it out, no matter how ugly. Outside of AF that only date WM’s there are other causes: under-representation of the AM in US media, AM’s needing to be more aggressive when dating non-AF's, etc...
Ronbo (Bay Area/SF)
howudoinsf@hotmail.com
Thursday, September 19, 2002 at 23:13:12 (PDT)
[12.81.78.77]
Deng Ai,
"And contrary to popular stereotypes, the white girls there are not at all racist... at least from my point of view."
Keep in mind though, those girls may not exhibit any racist belief towards you. Perhaps they have an open mind towards Asian and Hispanic guys. It's not always the case when a white person is open to Asians and Hispanics that they are, necessarily, open to black guys. That might be considered crossing the line for them. There are various scenarios that can take shape with dating and personal relations. Sometimes it gets pretty damn complicated.
I made a generalization about professional white women and outdating. Would that same generalization work concerning professional white women and their tolerance for racial profiling or interning possible foreign nationals to prevent terrorist attacks? Well, let's just say, maybe not :)
Geoff DB
GeoffDB02@aol.com
Thursday, September 19, 2002 at 22:06:30 (PDT)
[172.192.94.180]
huu76 and Political Observer:
My intent when comparing most Asian guys' belief that Asian women should marry and date them to black women preferring black guys to date and marry them was to demonstrate preference. It was not meant to demonstrate sensibility. It was neither my intent to insinuate, nor perpetuate any stereotype of Asian men. I respect Asians and Asian Americans. Asian guys are real men. Of course, you don't need me to say that. It a stupid racial stereotype perpetuated by movie writers and other racists. No one can take that from you, because Asian guys have fight in them.
I apologize to those who were offended by my remark.
I'm truly sorry that I used an example without fully explaining what I meant. Communications between African-Americans and Asians must be dealt with carefully, otherwise offense can happen easily.
I'm also sorry that I didn't figure this out first and that someone had to point it out to me.
Thank you guys. Have a great weekend.
Geoff DB
GeoffDB02@aol.com
Thursday, September 19, 2002 at 21:57:18 (PDT)
[172.192.94.180]
To: Geoff DB
“When Asian women tell me that they don't date Asian guys I listen to their reasons.”
Anyone can tell you anything. Are you going to take everything at face value? If I were to say I don’t like to make friends with black people because of for whatever reason they annoy me, what would you think about me? You’d call me a racist, wouldn’t you? Other than for reason other than black people are black, all other reasons anyone can conjure up will never be totality. If someone were to say blacks are unintelligent, we can always find those who are. If someone were to say blacks are mean, we can always find those who are nice. The only one thing that all black people are is that they are black.
Likewise, when an Asian woman tells you that Asian men annoys them for whatever reason, there are always Asian men who do not possess those annoying traits. The only trait that we Asian men have in common is that we are Asian – just like the only thing black men have in common is that you are black.
“Now, if you could prove that Asian guys, generally, tend to treat open-minded black guys with the same friendliness and hospitality that you extend to open-minded white guys, then I would concede that my generalization is a poor one. I think hell would freeze over before you could present that proof.”
Let’s not change the subject here. I’m not the one who made a blanket statement about any race of men; you’re the one who made a statement where you “maintain” it’s the attitude of Asian men turning Asian women off (your post, 9/15), yet did you provide any proof there? So between you and me, aren’t you the racist?
“Would you treat me the same way you would treat a cool white guy?”
Let’s see. You “heard” some Asian women capping on Asian men and with what you “heard” you’re sitting here making blanket statements “maintaining” things about Asian men and our bad attitudes. I don’t see a white man here doing the same thing, say, Hank. Rest assured that if Hank writes defamatory against Asians, he and I will get into it as well. And I can do that much more easily and it’s politically correct because Hank is white. He doesn’t have a trump card up his sleeve saying that I’m being racist towards him.
So, Geoff, it’s not what you claim (e.g. that you try to be cool, which you keep claiming) that makes you accepted or not. It’s not even what race you are (which you bring up all the time) that entitles you friendship. It’s what you do (e.g. propagating negativity about Asian men – which you do without justification) that counts.
“Keep in mind, my example takes place in a club. Club scenes are different than a bar or restaurant.”
You still haven’t answered me. I specifically asked you why you’re using that example to show Asian men have bad attitudes. That example can be used for men of any race – including black men, no? If it’s only applicable to Asian men having bad attitudes, can you explain why your example only applies to Asian men?
“OK, I'll concede perhaps a few inches, but still you have to admit when you believe that a women of your race should be interested in you there is a tendency to move a little closer, etc.”
I can’t speak for all Asian men. Can you? I can speak for the ones I personally know and I can say you’re wrong. But perhaps what you are saying is a reflection of your views of black women – that they should only be interested black men?
“I don't like to hear ANYONE say they don't like Asians. That's different than an Asian women saying she prefers to outdate because of attitude problems with some or most Asian guys towards Asian women.”
Why is it so hard for you to understand that some Asian women hate Asian men (real reason) and then they tell you they out-date by blaming Asian men for this-or-that (the good sounding reason)?
Let me give you an example that you may be able to relate to. I had a black lady tenant a few years back who’d never date black men. She told me the reason was black men’s attitude. Black men think they’re a catch if they have a job – any job – and that black women should kiss their feet because they’re gainfully employed; then she snickers “shouldn’t everyone expect to be gainfully employed?” Black men impregnate black women and skip town, leaving single mothers to tend to their kids. Black men get trophy white women and proudly display them in front of black women.
We know you’re not any of what she described – that you’re proud flipping burgers, a deadbeat dad, or whitewashed – right? There are black women who prefer non-black men, but they’ll never say it’s their preference. They’ll list everything else under the sun to justify their actions – blaming black men summarily. And summarily includes you – Geoff DB – whether you deserve it or not. Just like there are Asian women who’d never say it’s their preference and blame Asian men. There’s nothing wrong with black women preferring non-black men, and there’s nothing wrong with Asian women preferring non-Asian men. Just don’t blame us for their preferences. Do you understand now?
And to take the point even further, would it be fair for me to start talking about black men the way my ex-tenant talked about black men? What are you doing when you’re when you’re reiterating the gibberish from those Asian women about Asian men? Do you still think you’re being cool to Asians? You may be trying to be cool only to Asian women, but you’re not cool to Asians. If anything, you’re just a vulture preying on the Asian Gender Divide.
So before you claim to be cool with Asians, walk our walk, stop spreading false words, and stop blaming racism on everyone who disagrees with you.
“I'm unable to paint a kind picture of Asian male attitude, because I haven't observed too much of it.”
You reap what you sow. Are you still surprised?
Repost
Thursday, September 19, 2002 at 15:08:26 (PDT)
[66.92.1.200]
But if the population is only 30% non-white, then how can 50% out-marriage rate for white women be possible?"
My mistake Repost. Ok then let's take our samplings to Hawaii where Whites are more equal in numbers or even perhaps less than non Whites. So how do the outmarriage rates for Whites apply now? Are the White females outmarrying at 50% to all the Asian brothers out there?
Brother Man
Thursday, September 19, 2002 at 14:41:35 (PDT)
[64.12.97.9]
Hank Lewis,
you wrote to Ronbo
"The single White guys in my work place don't shoot their mouths off around me becuase one of them got fired after making a lurid remark about Asian upon seeing my wife's picture."
That's basically what it's going to require us to do in order to rid ourselves of that type joking around. Now I do admit that many guys who date asian women do have asian fetish (absolute love for all things asian) but there are true white/asian relationships that don't deserve that type of childish idiot behavior from a bunch of frat boys who got their degrees and jobs from their privileged fathers.
Political Observer
Thursday, September 19, 2002 at 12:39:49 (PDT)
[167.230.38.7]
huu 76,
you wrote about Geoff DB
"Geoff and myself don't agree on a lot of things, but at least he reasons."
That was a really kind and noble thing you said. I'm really proud of you considering where you started with him several months ago on that star wars fight. You guys were going at it pretty good but then you two backed off and tried to understand each other.
I don't always agree with Geoff cause I think he's a bit to nice for my taste. It's more seemly for you two to be civil with each other. I didn't look good at all when you guys fought.
Political Observer
Thursday, September 19, 2002 at 12:33:12 (PDT)
[167.230.38.7]
Huu76:
You wrote: "if you don't like to hear what he has to say, maybe you should go away."
Ease the anger pal. I could be wrong but it sounds like to me you dislike intensely the AF, kind of like Geoff with BF. Or so it seems like what people are saying. A brotherhood formed in the hatred of females of one's own race. Very interesting.
Just an observation
Thursday, September 19, 2002 at 11:42:04 (PDT)
[208.252.30.254]
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