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ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
ARE IVY DEGREES WORTH THE SACRIFICES
ending their kids to ivy league universities is the dream of every Asian American parent. Or so it seems. And there is no shortage of young AA willing to oblige. As of 2000, Asian Americans made up 12-19% of the undergrad enrollments of the top-20 ivy league universities.
No one questions the prestige associated with ivy degrees. In fact, sneer critics, that's the only thing bought with the extra money. And even that, they add, is wearing thin in a nation in which he cultural center of gravity has shifted to California.
It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles. But the criticisms run deeper than return on investment. Some Asian Americans who have attended ivy league colleges have come away regretting their decisions for other reasons.
Foremost is the sense that the ivies are structured for the benefit of legatees, the progeny of blueblooded alumni. Comprising upwards of 40% of some ivies, the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards. The result is that AA students with excellent credentials are the workhorses preserving the institutions' high academic reputations, thereby giving a free ride to undeserving legatees.
Another common complaint is that the deck is stacked socially against Asian males in a system designed to preserve the princely status quo of the scions of WASP families. A disproportionate number of attractive AA females are admitted by the ivies, some have observed, while far fewer attractive AA males are admitted. This subtle bias, suspect critics, is implemented in the screening interviews used by most ivies.
Then there's the Eurocentric worldview imposed by the courses. Not to mention the lousy weather, bland food and having to put up with locals hostile toward Asians. Contrast all this against the majority-ease lifestyles enjoyed by the AA in, say, the UC campuses.
The bragging rights an ivy education affords parents, conclude critics, are far outweighed by the psychic and emotional sacrifices exacted from their kids.
Does an ivy education provide rewards commensurate with the sacrifices? Or is it a trap for AA with overzealous parents with old-world views?
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:01:23 PM)
"Actually, I heard that in Asian countries, there is now a trend to discriminate in favour of those graduating from their own universities--for instance, Japanese universities might prefer someone from Tokyo U. over Harvard or Oxford or anywhere else. Do you find that to be true? "
Asian Dominatrix:
True in Japan but not in Singapore. Actually, some faculty at the National University of Singapore, such as Public Policy only hire whites and do not even
consider their own nationals
Asian American Male
Monday, November 26, 2001 at 18:09:15 (PST)
"It also looks like science is not a hell of a lot better. I recently heard from a white female friend who completed a MA in chemistry. She said she found it very interesting that her department recently hired 7 white males. Not a single woman or minority. She said it also happened elsewhere, but with different nos (3 white males?)All of this quite shocked me since I always thought that scientists were less prejudiced than humanities persons (propaganda on the part of my engineering dad.)"
Asian Dominatrix
Actually in a number of institutions, most engineering professors are from Asia, in particular, India. In fact, most Engineering faculty do not want to hire whites, even American whites, because they think that the Asians, particularly Indians, are good at engineering. In Chemistry and the raw sciences things are different.
Actually the fastest growth of Asian faculty members is in Business Administration. In fact, it is possible that most faculty members are from India or China while half of the students are WASP and women...happens all the time in Wharton and is beginning to happen in Duke (although Duke remains pretty racist and in particular anti-Asian).
Asian American Male
Monday, November 26, 2001 at 18:07:35 (PST)
"Yet, what is interesting is that many academics have no reservations about whites teaching Asian languages and literature. Or anything non-Western. In short, when non-whites are studying anything Western, they're 'trespassing' but when whites study non-Western topics, that makes them 'open-minded.' "
Asian Dominatrix:
Very true. I know of an institution which does work in developing countries. Everyone at that institution is white, particularly the Asian branch. Yet, none of them speak any Asian language. They are among the most racist bunch I have ever seen. Agriculture schools are another. Most whites (not including jews) cannot do simple addition without a calculator, but Ag schools hire them to teach quantitative methods and even more funny, many never lived in any developing countries and they are development economists. What a joke!! Are you surprised by the state of the world?
In the end, UC Berkeley has clearly shown us that without affirmitive action, the whites cannot compete with the Asian American population. So, guess what, they are trying to change the admission criteria...again.
Asian American Male
Monday, November 26, 2001 at 18:01:55 (PST)
Asian Dominatrix,
you're somewhat right and somewhat wrong in your accounts of the scientific community. For industries such as Chemicals/Pharmaceuticals, and Biological sciences, I can see where racism might play a part. For example, a WM maybe promoted faster just because of his race. However, I don't think mainstream America (any race) can really get away with being blatantly racist in the scientific community. I say this due to the pathetic performances of mainstream America in the sciences and math. I sometimes wonder how this country's scientific community survives without foreign imports? One would ONLY need to look at SAT scores to ask this question. As far as Hi-tech companies are concerned, one CANNOT be racist and survive. The reason is quite simple actually. In years past, people who felt "passed over" at large corporations simply started their own companies. And traditionalists like IBM, Lucent, and Apple are suffering because of this. Competition from start ups have really changed the entire landscape of the hi-tech industry. The attitude around Silicon Valley (pre Sept. 11th) is, "you don't like me, I QUIT", and with each departure arrives a new competitor.
Thanks,
Kevin
Kevin Yang
Monday, November 26, 2001 at 09:55:44 (PST)
The whining by asian americans who supposedly attended elite US or British schools doesn't make a lot of sense. On the one hand, they say that asians are "smarter" than whites. On the other hand , they tell you that asians are subject to discrimination at elite schools. Let me be very clear: if asian americans were significantly smarter than whites, schools with the highest asian enrollments would have far and away the highest test scores for incoming freshmen. Within a few years, schools that discriminated in favor of "stupid" whites would soon be marginalized. Before the '60's, Ivy schools discriminated against applicants who were not from the Northeast and who did not attend certain prep schools. During the '60's, the Ivies radically changed their admission criteria. As a result, the median test scores at these schools increased by over 200 pts. The reason was clear: had a school like Harvard continued to discriminate, it would have ceased to exist as a significant education institution. Can you imagine Harvard with a median SAT of 1100?
That would be laughable: no one would want to go.
Also, some of these asian americans tell us that they are subject to discrimination regardless of their degree. they then go on to say that they attended an "elite" institution, whether or not the education received is better than , say, one from UC, because they wanted advantages. Wait. What's wrong with this picture? If whites are not going to hire you for certain jobs anyway, why would you attend these particular universities? I attended UC Berkeley and think it is dubious that one necessarily learned to read better at, say, Harvard. So why go to Harvard? Well, supposedly one gets "old boy" connections. But Asians don't get those connections anyway. Perhaps asian americans should steer their kids to UC schools and shun the Ivies. Just don't go anyway. The Ivies are only as "prestigious" as people with money say they are. If the Japanese, for example, would favor UC graduates over Ivy graduates, "white" racism would have less effect.
energytraderus
Monday, November 26, 2001 at 09:28:41 (PST)
graddstudentguy,
Actually, I heard that in Asian countries, there is now a trend to discriminate in favour of those graduating from their own universities--for instance, Japanese universities might prefer someone from Tokyo U. over Harvard or Oxford or anywhere else. Do you find that to be true?
Asian Dominatrix
Sunday, November 25, 2001 at 19:58:52 (PST)
AC dropout,
You're right in that academia is not all about affiliation but reputation in one's field. Once you're famous, it doesn't really matter.
However, you also have to remember that since academics are quite narrow, they are usually going to judge others not in their immediate field by their academic affiliation. Quite frequently, scholars working in American history are not always going to recognise the names of those working in British history.
I remember my thesis supervisor complaining about how elitist American profs were; she mentioned one famous prof from the U. of Chicago saying, 'someone from that school [I don't remember] could never produce anything of good quality.' (It's not that the Brits don't do this themselves, BTW: they're just more tactful about it!)
About the inbreeding bit: actually, most academics prefer that their students remain in academia. It's a sign of THEIR success. However, it's also true that most schools are not going to hire their own Ph.D's immediately. Usually, they have to teach elsewhere before they return--that is, if they want to return.
Asian Dominatrix
Sunday, November 25, 2001 at 19:56:24 (PST)
Asian American Male and Harvard Graduate:
Both of you have made some very interesting points. I've heard many cases of Asian Ivy Leaguers who've been bypassed by whites from less prestigious schools. Academia, as you're both saying, is much the same. Believe me, I've seen it and experienced it myself at Oxford.
Unfortunately, many Americans at the prestigious schools are still bigoted when it comes to hiring. They may not necessarily resort to name-calling, but it's there in their attitude. When I was at Oxford and applying to teach Eng. lit to the American satellite programs like Williams and Stanford, NO ONE would hire me--despite the fact that I had better credentials than most of the people applying (prizes, conference papers etc.)What I imagine happened was that these folks probably assumed from my surname that English was not my first language. Rather, they allowed Germans and Italians to teach Eng.: people who spoke and wrote English POORLY.
Instead, I had better luck with the Oxford colleges, even tho' that was a battle too. I ended up phoning people so they could tell that I was a native English speaker: that seemed to do the trick. It was interesting that as an American, it SHOULD have been easier for me to teach at an American satellite program than at an Oxford college: this was true for most American grad students. My case, in other words, was a reversal of the norm.
There was another case at Oxford where someone with a middle-Eastern name got turned down everywhere he applied to. When he changed his name to a more Anglo one a year later, he finally got a few interviews. Sad, isn't it?
When it comes to hiring in the States, people prefer to hire Asians to teach Asian-American literature and blacks to teach African-American literature. They still believe that non-whites cannot understand the complexity of Western literature and history. It seems that almost every Asian faculty member I've met at the MLA has been steered towards teaching something on ethnic literature.
Yet, what is interesting is that many academics have no reservations about whites teaching Asian languages and literature. Or anything non-Western. In short, when non-whites are studying anything Western, they're 'trespassing' but when whites study non-Western topics, that makes them 'open-minded.'
It also looks like science is not a hell of a lot better. I recently heard from a white female friend who completed a MA in chemistry. She said she found it very interesting that her department recently hired 7 white males. Not a single woman or minority. She said it also happened elsewhere, but with different nos (3 white males?)All of this quite shocked me since I always thought that scientists were less prejudiced than humanities persons (propaganda on the part of my engineering dad.)
I do think, in the end, that whatever lip service these institutions give to progress and equal access, many of them--the Ivies and probably Oxbridge as well--feel that their duty is to protect the status quo.
Asian Dominatrix
Sunday, November 25, 2001 at 14:37:42 (PST)
In agriculture, it does not matter, as the only badge that is important is the color of your skin and your last name. People of East or South European origin would find it tough to get in. For instance, a top notch ag school in the midwest bypassed a Harvard economics PhD and hired someone from the University of Florida for only one reason, the latter happened to be white and the former an Asian American. This was to teach a course in quantitative methods. The white guy had not even published anything in his field. Of course, the Asian American guy went to teach out west (Stanford, I think).
So, yes race plays a major role and in some instance such as Agriculture even more than an Ivy League degree.
Asian American Male
Saturday, November 24, 2001 at 11:48:28 (PST)
If the Ivies do away with all types of affirmitive action, including those for the blue blooded ones, Asians and Asian Americans would be the majority in Ivy League schools, and Harvard would look like Berkeley.
Let us take the example of Harvard. I graduated in the late 1980s from that institution. Let me make this very clear: Larry Summers became President of Harvard not on his own merit as many people would believe, but through his father and uncles, two of whom won Nobel Prizes in economics. I have dealt with Professor Summers and Professor Stiglitz, and let me assure you that the former does not have half the brains of the latter. Furthermore, India born Abhijit Banerji who is a Development Economics Professor at MIT, is much smarter than Professors Summers or Proffesor Sachs, another economics professor. However, Banerji is not even being considered for the Chief Economist position at the premier international development institutions, while Professor Summer once was a chief economist. By the way, Professor Summers never lived in a developing country and does not really know anything about international development. For most of his tenure at the Treasury's International Affairs he talked nonsense. This further shows that Ivy League degree or not, there is a lot of racism at the international development institutions.
Many white Ivy Leaguers including Professors Summers and Sachs and those involved in GreenPeace, NGOs and WTO have ruined developing countries and put more people in poverty. Racism is the biggest problem and it permeates into all walks of global society including development institutions and NGOs.
Harvard Graduate
Saturday, November 24, 2001 at 11:43:46 (PST)
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