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GOLDSEA |
ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
ARE IVY DEGREES WORTH THE SACRIFICES
ending their kids to ivy league universities is the dream of every Asian American parent. Or so it seems. And there is no shortage of young AA willing to oblige. As of 2000, Asian Americans made up 12-19% of the undergrad enrollments of the top-20 ivy league universities.
No one questions the prestige associated with ivy degrees. In fact, sneer critics, that's the only thing bought with the extra money. And even that, they add, is wearing thin in a nation in which he cultural center of gravity has shifted to California.
It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles. But the criticisms run deeper than return on investment. Some Asian Americans who have attended ivy league colleges have come away regretting their decisions for other reasons.
Foremost is the sense that the ivies are structured for the benefit of legatees, the progeny of blueblooded alumni. Comprising upwards of 40% of some ivies, the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards. The result is that AA students with excellent credentials are the workhorses preserving the institutions' high academic reputations, thereby giving a free ride to undeserving legatees.
Another common complaint is that the deck is stacked socially against Asian males in a system designed to preserve the princely status quo of the scions of WASP families. A disproportionate number of attractive AA females are admitted by the ivies, some have observed, while far fewer attractive AA males are admitted. This subtle bias, suspect critics, is implemented in the screening interviews used by most ivies.
Then there's the Eurocentric worldview imposed by the courses. Not to mention the lousy weather, bland food and having to put up with locals hostile toward Asians. Contrast all this against the majority-ease lifestyles enjoyed by the AA in, say, the UC campuses.
The bragging rights an ivy education affords parents, conclude critics, are far outweighed by the psychic and emotional sacrifices exacted from their kids.
Does an ivy education provide rewards commensurate with the sacrifices? Or is it a trap for AA with overzealous parents with old-world views?
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:01:22 PM)
Asian American Male,
One of the things I've noticed about the question of affirmative action is how critics like to drown out Asian complaints about it being harder for Asians to get admitted into prestigious universities. There was a debate on TV a few years ago with Clinton, Elaine Chao, Clarence Page, and 2 others. (I didn't watch it but read the interview.) They not only cut off Elaine many times but when she was finally able to make her point about anti-Asian discrimination at the Ivies and other places, she was brushed off with 'there need to be some sacrifices.' Trouble is, why is it always Asians who need to do the sacrificing???
I did not realise there were so many Asians teaching business administration. Interesting, tho, that there are not as many Asians in the boardroom.
You mention the institutions which work on developing countries. Frankly, I even wonder if they visit these countries at all. Am I right in that many of these people don't even speak or write their languages? The impression I get is that they just go the conferences there, stay in fancy hotels and remain oblivious to the plight of the nations. This is partly why there is so much resentment against the US.
Asian Dominatrix
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 08:44:40 (PST)
energytraderus,
Let's set a few things straight.
First of all, many Asians do not claim to be significantly more intelligent than whites. The fact of discrimination exists in that a smaller proportion of Asians applying to the prestigious schools are accepted than say, whites, according to a study from the Yale Law Review in the early '90s: for instance, 5% of Asians might be admitted as opposed to 10% of whites. Asians do need higher scores, grades, amongst other criteria, compared to whites. The same has also been said about Oxford and Cambridge. And if you're an academic, you probably need more publications, prizes, honors, etc. to compete for an academic post. (Of course, all of this varies from discipline to discipline, as people have been pointing out here, but discrimination would appear to be worst in the more traditional sciences and arts.)
It would be nice if we had the advantage of hindsight before applying, wouldn't it? Unfortunately, this doesn't happen to those of us not gifted with ESP. Many do expect to be hired fairly easily with an Ivy degree but only discover later that it doesn't always work out the way to expect it to. There are a lot of white men who feel threatened or intimidated by Asians from a more prestigious school.
BTW, those who've pursued an advanced degree are not necessarily hung up on applying to the Ivies. For instance, if I were pursuing Asian-American studies, I would go to UCBerkeley because they're tops in that field. And an engineer might be more interested in applying to U of I Champaign than Harvard for the same reason.
HS students applying to Ivies for an undergrad. degree are a slightly different story; some may apply because they know that if they decide to apply for grad school later, they will have a better chance from the more prestigious schools because grad school committees tend to weigh scores and grades differently from different institutions.
As far as the Japanese hiring UC graduates over Harvard grads in the future, I would say the question is actually broader. For instance, a Japanese friend of mine who is studying at Oxford is having a much harder time returning home to teach; it looks like the Japanese prefer to hire white British Oxford graduates rather than Japanese Oxford graduates: I've seen a few white British Oxonians get university positions in Japan. But when it comes to their own people, they might prefer a Tokyo graduate over an Oxford graduate. But whether they would prefer a Tokyo U. grad over a white British Oxonian is difficult to tell.
Asian Dominatrix
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 08:30:57 (PST)
AA Male:
In general, an Asian institution wants a white person with an obviously white last name when they go to the trouble of hiring a foreign professor/"expert". The thinking I guess is that it gives them more prestige. In Singapore, this phenomenon you mentioned may be due specifically due to local government's insecurity about the population's level of English (i.e. they want a foreigner speaking "good English" so that Singaporeans will imitate him instead of going around speaking Singlish and giving Singaporeans a bad international image).
gradstudentguy
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 07:49:54 (PST)
energytraderus,
I have to agree with you that the Havard student body are composed of "Blue Bloods" and "Hard Workers." Most asians at Harvard fall into the Hard Worker category and rarely have an opportunity to make their connections with the Blue Bloods.
However, to suggest that AA should influence the UC system to become university magnet for AA, like the Blacks have done for some Universities in the USA, would not be successful. First off UC are state sponsored so they would not allow the student body of the system to rise above 80% AA. Then with over competition of Asian for seats the standards for asians entering the UC system would gradually increase. So in the long run only the Acedemic Elite Asian would be able to attend the UC and Harvard. Leaving the normal asian relegated to Community College in California, which would be bad for asians in the long run.
I think as asians who attended Harvard use the alumni system to keep sending their children to Harvard, would be a better stategy to ensure that there are more 'Blue Blood' asians to make the system fairer.
AC dropout
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 07:14:29 (PST)
Judging from this forum, one would think that whites were on the verge of extinction -- they have low SAT scores, and only succeed through the "old boys network." Apparently, even well known scholars such as Jeffrey Sachs and Larry Summers are "not as smart" as some Asian guy some Asian guy knows. And many well regarded universities, such as Duke, are "anti-Asian" (by what definition?).
I would suggest that some people in this forum take a step back and think about what they are saying. Is a university racist because it hires a University of Florida white rather than a Harvard Asian in agriculture? (I believe Florida has a pretty highly regarded ag program). Is the SAT test -- for which most Asians undeniably study much harder than most whites -- really a good measure of likely achievement in life? Should it determine who is hired to a university faculty? How is it that -- even as Asians supposedly dominate sciences -- most breakthough technologies (computers, the internet, space flight) were invented by whites? Is it possible that Asians aren't any smarter -- but that all the smart Asians come to America?
(white) Harvard grad student
Tuesday, November 27, 2001 at 22:40:20 (PST)
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