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GOLDSEA |
ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
ARE IVY DEGREES WORTH THE SACRIFICES
ending their kids to ivy league universities is the dream of every Asian American parent. Or so it seems. And there is no shortage of young AA willing to oblige. As of 2000, Asian Americans made up 12-19% of the undergrad enrollments of the top-20 ivy league universities.
No one questions the prestige associated with ivy degrees. In fact, sneer critics, that's the only thing bought with the extra money. And even that, they add, is wearing thin in a nation in which he cultural center of gravity has shifted to California.
It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles. But the criticisms run deeper than return on investment. Some Asian Americans who have attended ivy league colleges have come away regretting their decisions for other reasons.
Foremost is the sense that the ivies are structured for the benefit of legatees, the progeny of blueblooded alumni. Comprising upwards of 40% of some ivies, the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards. The result is that AA students with excellent credentials are the workhorses preserving the institutions' high academic reputations, thereby giving a free ride to undeserving legatees.
Another common complaint is that the deck is stacked socially against Asian males in a system designed to preserve the princely status quo of the scions of WASP families. A disproportionate number of attractive AA females are admitted by the ivies, some have observed, while far fewer attractive AA males are admitted. This subtle bias, suspect critics, is implemented in the screening interviews used by most ivies.
Then there's the Eurocentric worldview imposed by the courses. Not to mention the lousy weather, bland food and having to put up with locals hostile toward Asians. Contrast all this against the majority-ease lifestyles enjoyed by the AA in, say, the UC campuses.
The bragging rights an ivy education affords parents, conclude critics, are far outweighed by the psychic and emotional sacrifices exacted from their kids.
Does an ivy education provide rewards commensurate with the sacrifices? Or is it a trap for AA with overzealous parents with old-world views?
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:01:21 PM)
I strong disagree with the assumption on the screening process. I attended Columbia as an undergrad and am finishing up my Ph.D at Princeton. The AA women here are not half as attractive as those in UCLA or UC Irvine.
over-educated
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 22:47:31 (PST)
(white) Harvard grad student,
It is a little know fact that Asians are graded on a different standard when entering colleges, because we are the "Over-represented Minority" on most college campuses.
If you are really open minded on the topic, then an Asian should work no harder than a Black or a White to get into any undergraduate program. So we should do away with affirmative action in all institution of higher learning. But in reality we know that is not the case.
You think Asian enjoy busting their butts studying for a 1400+, where a white will need only 1300+, and Black will need a 1200+ to get into the same institution?
I don't know what department you're in. But look around, where are the TA and RA from, are they all white? Only the Tenure Prof is white. So whose name is on the paper published?
Basically, if you agree that all the smart asian are here. Don't you think Asians should be given the same opportunities as the Jews, Irish, and Italian, who were also considered "smart" immigrants, to set up an infrastructures to support other Asians.
For someone who claims to be a Harvard grad student, you should sit in on Harvard reknowned undergraduate History Class required for most freshman.
It is has a very interesting perspective on the rise and fall of civilazation. Of course if you're going to name 20th century breakthroughs they occur in the West by some white guy. Go a couple hundred years back they occur in Europe. A couple hundred years more back they occur in the Middle East and Africa. Further back they occur in Asia.
So move into the future and the cycle may start in Asia or where ever else is the #1 nation after the USA.
I don't know what department you're in. But it seems like you're just proof of another DWG (Dumb white guy) at a good univeristy.
AC dropout
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 14:36:46 (PST)
(white) Harvard grad student,
first off, I don't think I've said that Asian are smarter as I don't believe intelligence is in ANY way related to race or gender. I do however, know for a fact that Americans as a whole (all races) do poorly in both the sciences and math. It's also a fact that Asian Americans have contributed immensely to American causes in these fields. I for one, work in the Hi-tech industry and truly believe that the Asian contribution to this cause was necessary for the USA's current standing in the high tech "order", so to speak. Both races have their contributions and that fact should NOT be forgotten. Silicon Valley would NOT be as successful without it's influx of Asian and Indian engineers. That's a FACT! White are innovative on the drawing board. Asians are innovative in making the drawing a reality. Also, just a side note, though most of the things you mentioned were invented by white males, I don't think many of them were born Americans. Allan Turing (Computer), Von Braun (space flight), and Leo Kleinrock (Internet) were all European born. Just a side note.
Kevin Yang
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 13:26:34 (PST)
"How is it that -- even as Asians supposedly dominate sciences -- most breakthough technologies (computers, the internet, space flight) were invented by whites? Is it possible that Asians aren't any smarter -- but that all the smart Asians come to America?"
I do not think so. Not at least according to the Nobel Committee. 60% of all Nobel Prizes in Physics and Chemistry has gone to foreigners working in America since the late 1960s. Although a number of them are white (Jewish actually) white Americans supposedly played a minor role other than providing venture capital and funding research. White Americans have money yes and many are generous. But, brainpower...not unless combined with the jews and asians. Bill Gates acknowledges this and microsoft wants to hire only Asians.
Sachs and Summers are well known...but scholars in development, no. Professors Joe Stiglitz and Abhijit Banerji know a lot more about development than Professor Summers or Sachs would ever know. Professor Sachs analysis about tropics doing worse than temperate countries is an exercise in intellectual nonsense. It is certainly true within the US but not true in China or India, where the "tropical" provinces and states such as Karnataka (in India) or Gungzhu (in China) do much better than Bihar (India) or Inner Mongolia (China).
Asian American Male
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 11:45:00 (PST)
"In general, an Asian institution wants a white person with an obviously white last name when they go to the trouble of hiring a foreign professor/"expert". The thinking I guess is that it gives them more prestige. In Singapore, this phenomenon you mentioned may be due specifically due to local government's insecurity about the population's level of English (i.e. they want a foreigner speaking "good English" so that Singaporeans will imitate him instead of going around speaking Singlish and giving Singaporeans a bad international image)."
But, the Singaporeans think that British (South of England English, not London Cockney) is the right English. But, they hire all kinds of whites at the NUS Public Policy...German, Swedes, Dutch, white Americans(even Southern whites), British (but not an Asian British with a South of England accent)...clearly less to do with right English than a white bias. Both the German English and the Singapore English are not really proper English and as far as the Singaporeans are concerned, Americans have not spoken real English for centuries, particularly in the US South!!
East Asian
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 11:34:35 (PST)
"There are a lot of white men who feel threatened or intimidated by Asians from a more prestigious school."
Particularly incompetent white men and women working on Asia who know nothing about Asia, but who pontificate about the status of Asian and Arab women. Actually, it is the South Asian and Arab custom of "why educate our women," that leads to this type of white supremacy. Competition for white men and women in internatioal organizations is reduced. So, why should white women care about the poor Afghan women. In deed that is their happiness. After all, they have less competition if there are fewer Arab and South Asians applying for these slots. White women in my organization do not like East Asian women because no one puts them behind the veils as the "nice" Arabs and South Asians do.
"But whether they would prefer a Tokyo U. grad over a white British Oxonian is difficult to tell."
These days everyone from Singapore to Japan prefer the latter. As another poster said, the NUS Public Policy group hires only whites. However, the government agencies are different. They prefer Asians
South Asian
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 11:30:01 (PST)
"You mention the institutions which work on developing countries. Frankly, I even wonder if they visit these countries at all. Am I right in that many of these people don't even speak or write their languages? The impression I get is that they just go the conferences there, stay in fancy hotels and remain oblivious to the plight of the nations. This is partly why there is so much resentment against the US."
True. I work in one. I am the only Asian working on Asia in a totally white outfit.
Asian American Male
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 11:21:47 (PST)
"Trouble is, why is it always Asians who need to do the sacrificing???"
Asian D...
Read the white graduate student's post. It is very clear the whites want all the best things for themselves. First they complain that affirmitive action is bad as blacks have low SAT and GRE scores. Now they are saying that Asians should not get in only because of good SAT scores. The whites do not want the blacks in because they "are not very good." They do not want us in "just because we study hard and get good grades and good SAT scores." They only want whites.-
Asian American Male
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 11:20:25 (PST)
"I would suggest that some people in this forum take a step back and think about what they are saying. Is a university racist because it hires a University of Florida white rather than a Harvard Asian in agriculture? (I believe Florida has a pretty highly regarded ag program)."
I know you are typical white American. When the blacks and hispanics get in through AA, the whites (like you perhaps) claim they got in through racial preferences and oh it is so unfair and that they should only loook at SAT and the GPA (dont believe me that there are no white whiners...full of them at the University of Georgia and the University of Michigan and Hopwood was a typical white whiner when she blamed her rejection at the University of Texas Law School on hispanics and blacks with lower GPA and LSAT scores. OK. said the officials..no more affirmitive action in Texas or California. And guess what happens in CA. The Asians are beating the s--- out of the whites in Berkeley and UCLA admissons, and you say:
"Is the SAT test -- for which most Asians undeniably study much harder than most whites -- really a good measure of likely achievement in life? Should it determine who is hired to a university faculty?"
Ladies and gentleman on this board here is your typical white Ameircan. He or she thinks that the only good way is the white way...ie., you cannot win unless you are white at the least and blonde and blue eyed at the most.
Get it straight, white Harvard guy. I am one too, and I have a PhD from there. If the Ivy Leagues only admitted students along the criteria set by Berkeley, there wont be too many white students left. If there were no in state quotas at UT, there would not be too many white students there. Most of them would go to Florida or even worse Alabama or Louisiana.
Harvard PhD graduate, 1988
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 11:17:04 (PST)
Many faculties want White names and faces on their rosters so that student bodies will think of the department as more "internationalized." But in other hiring, most Japanese universities prefer hiring local graduates with "good" credentials (i.e. graduated from a big-name university and even better if you did a post-doc at a major Japanese company, it seems sometimes like it's even more important than your publications and research), as opposed to those who have pursued graduate study or post-doctoral research overseas. I think most Japanese who go overseas, especially at undergraduate level, end up remaining overeas. I also think there is some anti-returnee (i.e. kikokusizyo, those who took some education overseas before returning to Japan) prejudice in Japanese academia, but I'm not sure ...
I also know that sometimes, Chinese and Korean students studying as graduate students in Japan will take a pass-name in Japanese and are encouraged to do so, whereas someone with a Western-sounding name is discouraged from taking a Japanese name, even in the case of women married to a Japanese man who is required by law to change her name (or her husband changes his name, but I don't think that happens too often), her department wants to keep her on the roster under her old name, or a man who wants to change his name so his children's names don't appear as conspiciously foreign on their school registry).
What is the case in Hong Kong and Singapore? I've heard of some instances of discrimination against Indians in Hong Kong - especially those with a European-sounding surname. They think they are on good track for a position, until they come to give an on-campus talk and the search committee realizes they are Indian rather than White.
gradstudentguy
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 at 10:59:46 (PST)
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