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GOLDSEA |
ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
ARE IVY DEGREES WORTH THE SACRIFICES
ending their kids to ivy league universities is the dream of every Asian American parent. Or so it seems. And there is no shortage of young AA willing to oblige. As of 2000, Asian Americans made up 12-19% of the undergrad enrollments of the top-20 ivy league universities.
No one questions the prestige associated with ivy degrees. In fact, sneer critics, that's the only thing bought with the extra money. And even that, they add, is wearing thin in a nation in which he cultural center of gravity has shifted to California.
It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles. But the criticisms run deeper than return on investment. Some Asian Americans who have attended ivy league colleges have come away regretting their decisions for other reasons.
Foremost is the sense that the ivies are structured for the benefit of legatees, the progeny of blueblooded alumni. Comprising upwards of 40% of some ivies, the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards. The result is that AA students with excellent credentials are the workhorses preserving the institutions' high academic reputations, thereby giving a free ride to undeserving legatees.
Another common complaint is that the deck is stacked socially against Asian males in a system designed to preserve the princely status quo of the scions of WASP families. A disproportionate number of attractive AA females are admitted by the ivies, some have observed, while far fewer attractive AA males are admitted. This subtle bias, suspect critics, is implemented in the screening interviews used by most ivies.
Then there's the Eurocentric worldview imposed by the courses. Not to mention the lousy weather, bland food and having to put up with locals hostile toward Asians. Contrast all this against the majority-ease lifestyles enjoyed by the AA in, say, the UC campuses.
The bragging rights an ivy education affords parents, conclude critics, are far outweighed by the psychic and emotional sacrifices exacted from their kids.
Does an ivy education provide rewards commensurate with the sacrifices? Or is it a trap for AA with overzealous parents with old-world views?
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:01:21 PM)
I think that although you can associate all eight ivy leagues with the "pride" factor you mentioned, some ivy's are friendlier than others when it comes to race-relations from the AA point of view. I attend Cornell University, and I can say that there is no hostility towards AA's at all, and many of my friends from the west coast have told me that it is somewhat of a UC mood. Similar reactions have been shared with me from friends at UPenn, Columbia(especially), Harvard, Yale, and Brown. I think when you talk of the remaining : Dartmouth and Princeton, you can expect more of what you were speaking of, simply because 1) they are smaller schools, 2) they, espeically Princeton, tend to accept WASP/JAP elitists based on status, rather than a race-blind approach.
Just my two cents
sushi
Sunday, December 02, 2001 at 18:05:15 (PST)
"The West: when the playing field is levelled down to a white (of either sex) and an ethnic minority, things begin to change a little. Whites, especially those at prestigious firms, schools, etc. tend to prefer whites and will usually make some sort of excuse like the white candidate having better 'people skills' or 'leadership' or whatever. They will also usually promote white women over minorities of either sex--esp. if she's tall and blond."
Very true in the international organization I work in. There are a lot of white people who do not like the races of people in developing countries they work in. I know several white American women working in Asia who would never date or for that matter sit near an Asian male (or even sit near an Asian female). Usually, they say that they (the Asians) cannot comprehend "our" (white and western) thinking. I do not believe that the whites can comprehend the Afghan thinking either. Yet, three out of four candidates for overseeing the rebuilding of Afghanistan are whites and white Americans becuase they supposedly have better people skills. This was the kind of attitude that got us in trouble in the first place...tendency of international organizations to put out white faces, instead of a global face.
"This is when they will complain about elitist tastes for Harvard--because they want to employ the white man from U. of F rather than the Asian from Harvard."
I see this all the time. When the white females in Georgia, Michigan and Texas (Hopwood) sued to overturn affirmitive action, they said that everyone should be admitted according to merit (high GPAs and high SAT or LSAT scores). However, when the Asians do better than whites in all these indicators, they simply contradict themselves by saying that academics should not be the only criterion. This policy leads to more unqualified whites being admitted into Ivies than qualified Asian Americans. This is what I call white privilege. In another board, there is a site called, how does it feel to be white? It must feel great to be white with those sharp facial features. I would love to be privileged as well.
Having said that MIT (although not an Ivy) is an exception. Minorities are a majority at MIT. It is a white run school but admission is strictly on merit, although some Affirmitive Action is practiced (as is preferred admission for alumni). Preferred white candidates supported by alumni are counted towards the overall white quota.
"Has anyone ever noticed how the media likes to discuss whites having 'brilliance' or 'talent' whereas Asians are just 'hard-working'--in an attempt to proclaim white superiority?"
All the time.
"The East: judging from what I've heard from other Asians trying to get hired in their own country and what I've seen on this board, it seems that even Asians in Asia want whites for token prestige, whether or not they're actually the best candidate. Like the whites in the West, they have somehow bought into the myth that Westerners are superior and will enhance their business, institution, etc. just by virtue of being white--even if they don't necessarily believe that whites are smarter and more capable. They probably also get paid more for doing less."
You are right about payment and salaries. Whites are generally paid more out East. In fact, an Asian friend of mine uses a white employee to negotiate with Asians because if he shows up they try to talk down the contract rate. Everyone says that Singaporean Chinese favor their own kind (other Chinese). I strongly disagree. I think for well paying "expatriate" jobs they prefer
whites and whites only. This is not the case in the government, but mostly at the Universities and the domestic private sector.
Asian American Male
Friday, November 30, 2001 at 15:52:55 (PST)
Asian Dominatrix,
I agree with you that positive discrimination would beneficial for Asian in Western Societies. The company I work for practices it all the time by employing Asian over non-Asian all the time. They are even more racist in the fact that they employ only Chinese-Asians if given the opportunity.
In the offices of Shanghai, Taipei and New York. The company only has 1 non Asian employee. The company banks exclusively in Chinese owned banks.
Sometimes I wonder if this the new face of Asian racism in America. But I'm usually to busy to let that sit on my mind too long.
As for reverse discrimitation in Asia. I faced it once when apply for an English teach position at those private after school franchise in Asia. I speak fluent Chinese and English. The interviewer could not distinguish any of the English accents on the planet. So they turn me down even though I aced their English qualification exam.
Their are a lot of factors working against a go-getter oversea Asians trying to work in Asia these days. Everything from reverse discrimination to "Green Card" envy. From age-ism to sex-ism. Even the cultural gap is an obstacle.
AC dropout
Friday, November 30, 2001 at 12:42:35 (PST)
I guess the sad and sorry state of affairs is that:
1. There is elitism, whether or not it is actually warranted, when competition is between two people of the same race. A white male from Harvard or Yale is more likely to get a job from a given business, firm, etc. over a white male from a lesser known school--even with the same grades and qualifications. (Although it is true that some schools are better than others when it comes to certain disciplines and resources.)
2. The West: when the playing field is levelled down to a white (of either sex) and an ethnic minority, things begin to change a little. Whites, especially those at prestigious firms, schools, etc. tend to prefer whites and will usually make some sort of excuse like the white candidate having better 'people skills' or 'leadership' or whatever. They will also usually promote white women over minorities of either sex--esp. if she's tall and blond. This is when they will complain about elitist tastes for Harvard--because they want to employ the white man from U. of F rather than the Asian from Harvard. This is why they will prefer to hire a German or Italian speaking the worst broken English with fewer qualifications no less over an Asian-American speaking flawless English. The excuse here would be: 'we need some diversity. Hey, why not a European instead of the same old Americans?'
BTW, has anyone ever noticed how the media likes to discuss whites having 'brilliance' or 'talent' whereas Asians are just 'hard-working'--in an attempt to proclaim white superiority?
3. The East: judging from what I've heard from other Asians trying to get hired in their own country and what I've seen on this board, it seems that even Asians in Asia want whites for token prestige, whether or not they're actually the best candidate. Like the whites in the West, they have somehow bought into the myth that Westerners are superior and will enhance their business, institution, etc. just by virtue of being white--even if they don't necessarily believe that whites are smarter and more capable. They probably also get paid more for doing less. (This is only a conjecture--if otherwise, please let me know.)
Possible solutions:
The West: I think we need to change this, somehow, some way. At Oxford, where all of my undergrads were white and British, I obviously could not practice positive discrimination at the race level. However, since sexism still lingers in a pretty big way over there (much more so than in the US), I have always attempted to spend more time with my female students if they need help--especially given that many of them complain about how professors (esp. males) don't tend to pay much attention to the work of female students. This is partly why females still do more poorly than males at the university level. (I'm not saying I don't help male students: I do. But if push comes to shove and I only have an extra half hour, I'd rather give it to a female student!) Discrimination is not fair. But sometimes you need to tip the balance just to begin to even out centuries of injustice. That's why I support affirmative action.
The East: We need to raise consciousness over there. Tell people and encourage them to write to their newspapers. But given the pervasiveness of Western media--images of whites all over newspapers and magazines--whether they will actually respond is anyone's guess.
Asian Dominatrix
Thursday, November 29, 2001 at 10:35:07 (PST)
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