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GOLDSEA |
ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
ARE IVY DEGREES WORTH THE SACRIFICES
ending their kids to ivy league universities is the dream of every Asian American parent. Or so it seems. And there is no shortage of young AA willing to oblige. As of 2000, Asian Americans made up 12-19% of the undergrad enrollments of the top-20 ivy league universities.
No one questions the prestige associated with ivy degrees. In fact, sneer critics, that's the only thing bought with the extra money. And even that, they add, is wearing thin in a nation in which he cultural center of gravity has shifted to California.
It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles. But the criticisms run deeper than return on investment. Some Asian Americans who have attended ivy league colleges have come away regretting their decisions for other reasons.
Foremost is the sense that the ivies are structured for the benefit of legatees, the progeny of blueblooded alumni. Comprising upwards of 40% of some ivies, the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards. The result is that AA students with excellent credentials are the workhorses preserving the institutions' high academic reputations, thereby giving a free ride to undeserving legatees.
Another common complaint is that the deck is stacked socially against Asian males in a system designed to preserve the princely status quo of the scions of WASP families. A disproportionate number of attractive AA females are admitted by the ivies, some have observed, while far fewer attractive AA males are admitted. This subtle bias, suspect critics, is implemented in the screening interviews used by most ivies.
Then there's the Eurocentric worldview imposed by the courses. Not to mention the lousy weather, bland food and having to put up with locals hostile toward Asians. Contrast all this against the majority-ease lifestyles enjoyed by the AA in, say, the UC campuses.
The bragging rights an ivy education affords parents, conclude critics, are far outweighed by the psychic and emotional sacrifices exacted from their kids.
Does an ivy education provide rewards commensurate with the sacrifices? Or is it a trap for AA with overzealous parents with old-world views?
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Discussions posted during the past year remain available for browsing.
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:01:19 PM)
To AA Male:
Enron? What is that meant to prove? Hopefully it isn't being mentioned just to add a healthy amount of "bad things" to list about Europeans, because Asians certainly have their share of screw ups as well.
"Indians are Asians as well."
That was exactly the point. I never said Indians aren't Asian. The guy I was responding to kept talking about how various European scientists and such merely stand on each others' shoulders. Therefore, I mentioned things like Buddhism(and it's descendants)...where many of Asia's greatest minds merely worked off of what had previously been thought of.
"....but by Asian American and Jewish researchers with white and Jewish money."
lol I would suggest not living by such myths. Jews and Asians do not own and run the world and all great scientific research therein. Whenever one mentions great European or American achievements someone loves to jump in and claim Jews and Asian power it all. But if we start talking about the "dark side" of science and research, then so-called "whites" are exclusively to blame. I'm afraid not. Asians and Jews are not the brain trust from which all good things come forth.
"Most of the Nobel Prize winners in the US are foreign born. If white Americans have so many great researchers why are corporations and universities trying to recruit Asians and lobby congress for more H-1-B1 Visas?"
*I* was born on foreign soil(in Germany). Both of my parents are immigrants(mother: Italy, father: Germany). Furthermore, why do you keep talking about "whites"? I don't recall ever referring to anyone by such a label. Contrary to what ignorant people often believe(including many of those who claim to be "white"), all Europeans are not "white". Well, of course I should have known that at the core, this was an Asian vs. White thing. Even in the part of my post you quoted, I said that many of the big research projects were happing "outside of Asia". Why you assumed that "outside Asia" means "only America" will just have to remain a mystery.
"Western Eurocentric textbooks do not teach us about the achievements of any other race, save white. Also it fails to tell us the truth that most of the ancestors of today's Anglo-Saxons lived in caves until the Romans taught them how to make fire."
"Western Eurocentric"? The textbooks are not concerned with "Europe", they're concerned with "England". Most schools teach virtually nothing about Germany(beyond Adolf Hitler), Italy, Spain, Ireland, and so on. Most textbooks focus on England, then put in a good bit about France and that's it. If you are sitting around waiting on your schoolbooks to teach you about your *own* people, then that is exactly the problem.
Whether or not you "go along" with the achievements made by Europeans will not change the fact that there *have* been achievements.
"Finally, what I am getting at is that homogeneous cultures and corporations are a big joke..."
Most European countries aren't homogeneous.
DV8 Ragazza
Monday, December 17, 2001 at 10:33:55 (PST)
Asian American Male,
Ramanujam - isn't he a grade school drop out post master from india, that intuitively discovered a bunch of theorm dealing with combinatoric groupings. Only half of his theorum's have been proven with traditional method. He's the Einstein of Math. The other of the theorum we have no idea how to prove or disprove. Was invited to England by a professor. Got the plague and died. Evil white people and bad sewer system again. ^_^
Evil UK sewer system, first it kills off Pocohantus and then Ramanujam. White Europeans just bring diseases where ever they going. It's a conspiracy.
AC dropout
Monday, December 17, 2001 at 09:43:02 (PST)
Editors and others,
I'm really curious about these non-Ivy Ivies. Can somebody name a few of them? I don't disbelieve you when you say that some people have a looser definition of Ivies, but I have never heard the term used in reference to any schools but the original eight. Maybe it's cause I'm from the Northeast (I don't attend one of the 8 in the athletic league).
By the way, your use of "New England" isn't quite correct either. Half of the bona fide Ivies are located in Mid-Atlantic, not New England states.
Philly
Saturday, December 15, 2001 at 14:30:33 (PST)
[The term "ivy" is used loosely to refer to elite institutions of longstanding, most of which in fact happen to have ivy-laced buildings. A few examples: MIT, Wellesley, Stanford, Johns Hopkins, Duke, Smith. This page isn't meant to be a tedious discussion on the understanding of the term "ivy". If the terminology sticks in your craw, feel free to move on to another page or site. --Ed]
"Ivy" is a common shorthand for elite private colleges, primarily on the east coast. --Ed
I don’t know where you’re going with this. Ivy refers to the 8 schools in the Ivy athletic conference, and those 8 schools only. These 8 schools are solely on the eastern seaboard. Stanford and Caltech are not ivy. Elite private schools on the east coast (eg. Georgetown, MIT, Duke, etc.), while good schools, are not ivy if they’re not in the ivy athletic conference.
“That "plant" happens to grow on the walls of countless institutions, many not even in the New England states. Trust us when we say we have seen much ivy. We use "ivy" in the sense it is understood by most people who don't attend the 8 colleges in that athletic league. Keep in mind that serious prestige is not confined to those eight. “--Ed
Look, I trust you that ivy grows all over the place, but “ivy” in the term “ivy athletic conference” does in fact refer to the ivy that grows on the sides of ivy schools.
“Keep in mind that serious prestige is not confined to those eight.” –Ed
Serious prestige is in fact confined to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. That does not mean other schools such as Williams and Stanford aren’t good schools, but they do not carry the same amount of prestige
zelda
Saturday, December 15, 2001 at 01:40:38 (PST)
[Nothing personal here, either, but when a poster wants to impose his/her narrow views on our editorial policy (omitted in accordance with our policy), what constitutes "serious prestige", or our use of a term, we can only smile, shake our heads and hope he/she has the good sense to move on. --Ed]
"Trying to minimize the greatness of great minds like Einstein, Leonardo Da Vinci, Heinrich Hertz, and countless others just because your "Asian pride" needs a boost is weak. It was Europeans who invented things like the radio, the battery, and much more."
Yes. But, the know it all folks of European origin also gave us Enron (which is a totally white run company made up small-town Texas oil men who behaved like they knew and owned the world), which put a large number of people (mostly white) out of work. If anything the white boys who ran Enron are good poster boys for affirmitive action. Obviously the best people did not get the job at Enron. Otherwise we would not have a mess in our hands. However, this is not white people's problem alone. Japan and Korea are examples of homogeneous countries which went down the tubes with attitudes similar to that of Enron.
"The Chinese got Buddhism from India."
Indians are Asians as well.
"*Much* of today's hottest researh(as far as next-gen technology) is happening *outside* of Asia, not in it. At the top of the list would be nanotechnology...hardly being powered by Asian researchers."
....but by Asian American and Jewish researchers with white and Jewish money. Majority of the Westinghouse Fellows every year are Asians and Jewish. Most of microsoft's researchers are Asian although the adminsitrators (research directors) are all white. Most of the Nobel Prize winners in the US are foreign born. If white Americans have so many great researchers why are corporations and universities trying to recruit Asians and lobby congress for more H-1-B1 Visas?
"It becomes laughable when you sit there talking about how Einstein stood on Newton's shoulders, then talk about China producing prodigies with the help of technology being built in the *West*."
Actually a lot of mathematics came out of India. Ever heard of Aryabhata, Ramanujam and the Chola Kingdoms of South India? I think not. Western Eurocentric textbooks do not teach us about the achievements of any other race, save white. Also it fails to tell us the truth that most of the ancestors of today's Anglo-Saxons lived in caves until the Romans taught them how to make fire. I will go along with the achievements of the white people when they also concede that their ancestors lived in caves during the Roman Empire.
Finally, what I am getting at is that homogeneous cultures and corporations are a big joke...they would lead us in the path of destruction like Enron and Japan. US will thrive and flourish as long as talented people of all races from all over the world work together in American universities and corporations and be on the cutting edge of technology. The biggest lesson of recent years is that bigotry, exclusivity and homogeneity are a sure path to destruction. Alas!! Investors and employees of Enron learned this a bit too late!!
Asian American Male
Friday, December 14, 2001 at 13:18:10 (PST)
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