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GOLDSEA |
ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
ARE IVY DEGREES WORTH THE SACRIFICES
ending their kids to ivy league universities is the dream of every Asian American parent. Or so it seems. And there is no shortage of young AA willing to oblige. As of 2000, Asian Americans made up 12-19% of the undergrad enrollments of the top-20 ivy league universities.
No one questions the prestige associated with ivy degrees. In fact, sneer critics, that's the only thing bought with the extra money. And even that, they add, is wearing thin in a nation in which he cultural center of gravity has shifted to California.
It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles. But the criticisms run deeper than return on investment. Some Asian Americans who have attended ivy league colleges have come away regretting their decisions for other reasons.
Foremost is the sense that the ivies are structured for the benefit of legatees, the progeny of blueblooded alumni. Comprising upwards of 40% of some ivies, the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards. The result is that AA students with excellent credentials are the workhorses preserving the institutions' high academic reputations, thereby giving a free ride to undeserving legatees.
Another common complaint is that the deck is stacked socially against Asian males in a system designed to preserve the princely status quo of the scions of WASP families. A disproportionate number of attractive AA females are admitted by the ivies, some have observed, while far fewer attractive AA males are admitted. This subtle bias, suspect critics, is implemented in the screening interviews used by most ivies.
Then there's the Eurocentric worldview imposed by the courses. Not to mention the lousy weather, bland food and having to put up with locals hostile toward Asians. Contrast all this against the majority-ease lifestyles enjoyed by the AA in, say, the UC campuses.
The bragging rights an ivy education affords parents, conclude critics, are far outweighed by the psychic and emotional sacrifices exacted from their kids.
Does an ivy education provide rewards commensurate with the sacrifices? Or is it a trap for AA with overzealous parents with old-world views?
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:01:18 PM)
To Harvey: lol Oh boy am I gonna have fun with this one.
1)First, let's deal with your ignorance regarding language. A "ragazza" is a GIRL, not a guy. Why is that so difficult for people around here, anyway? Interesting that one who claims to have researched and compared so many culttures and countries knows so little when it comes to language(ie something you often need if you intend to get at the truth about many cultures).
2)Your comments were bigoted. The tone of your entire post was one of arrogant bigotry, therefore the raw nerves that got hit were clearly your own. Let me guess, you're still sulking about your own college experience? At some point I'm sure you might even start blubbering about how eeeevil racist whites "made" you a bigot.
3)Many of the historic institutions of education in Asia WERE Zen and Buddhist temples you idiot. Temples run by the Shaolin and various other groups were about more than just early forms of fighting, they also taught biology, botany, philosophy, and other subjects. Though they weren't universities in the modern sense, they had a big hand in educating many Asians and promoting education. They're some of the oldest "schools" in existence, that's why I listed them. But of course, you'd have to be an Asian racist who knows virtually nothing of value about his own people not to see that. =)
4)Nooope, sono spiacente, but Asians are not carrying the bulk of nanotech research. First, I can verify that with my own eyes, because I attended portions of the 2001 Int'l Bio and Infotech Summit at UCSF. In addition, many researchers putting in work in the field of nanotechnology come from Stanford and guess what...I'm a senior here(maj. comp sci/bus). Therefore what I say is certainly based on what I see. Somehow, I don't think your argument is based on more than illogic such as "Everyone knows Asians are the smartest". Pathetic. I could go on and list lots of major labs in which Asians(if they're there at all) aren't the majority such as Zyvex, California Nanosystems Inst, ecc. but what's the point? We both know you're out of your depth on this. It almost looks like you just web searched to find what little info you posted. What you say about Asian researchers at the govt level is almost hysterical. There are many Asians, yes, but they are by *far* not the bulk of the researchers(they are not even working for the govt in major numbers).
5)LOL@AIDS research. Don't even go there about who the researchers are. Such a list involves researchers everywhere from Africa to North America and every industrialized nation inbetween.
6)I'm afraid you've let internet sites on China's space programs go to your head. They are far from poised to take *anybody* in the next 5 years. I've been speaking with officers in the US Air Force for over the past 2 months. I'm joining DET 085 next yr and have therefore been getting an in-depth look at the present and future of US space technology(the AF is one of the industry's biggest influences). The US space program is pretty much the platinum standard. In 5 years at *best* China will just be where the USA is today...and where the USA will be in 5 years is something you conviniently ignored. The USA is planning missions to Mars while China is just starting to get it's internet up to speed and you're predicting it'll dominate. The nanotech thing just made you look ignorant, but this space tech debate will make you look stupid(and possibly delusional).
7)This sillyness about the percentages of geniuses in China is just you getting desperate. Such ignorant horseshit is to be expected from racists, I suppose. Anyway, let's establish something right now: Overall IQ measurements are valued among psychologists...not neurologists, biologists, and anthropologists/ethnologists of any worth. In other words, the measurements are not based on biological evidence. Your argument is, "Well if you got lots of people, you'll probably have a lot more geniuses!". I'd be here all day if I tried to list everything wrong with that. Using your logic I could argue that geniuses born in Europe and the USA "might" outnumber their prominent Chinese counterparts. Because in Europe, the USA, and other places...certain institutions are within much easier reach providing more opportunity to nurture Euro and American minds. Of course, ultimately that conclusion is as worthless as your own BS. You keep talking about what "might", "will", and "should" happen in China, but never deal with reality. China predates the nations of Europe, the USA, Japan, and many others. Yet the other nations are far ahead of China. By what you've said, legions of Chinese geniuses should've been produced by now to prevent the current state of things. Yet they haven't. Why? Because they don't exist. Trying to say that statistics prove they "will" when we're looking at several centuries with less than stellar progress doesn't help your credibility.
-------
Finally, my roommate thinks you're a racist and an idiot. She often has to put up with comments from various people who insist that Asians are the most racist people on Earth. Therefore the sight of an Asian acting as you do is quite irritating. She posesses the ability to be proud of her Asian heritage without needing to compare herself to so-called "whites" all the time...which is a trait you ain't got.
P.S.-My roommate is a "she", not a "he". Ciao! ^_^
DV8 Ragazza
Thursday, December 20, 2001 at 09:22:14 (PST)
Harvey Mudd Alumnus,
While I won't endorse what Ragazza is saying (I haven't followed his statements closely enough), yours are quite ignorant.
1) China is not on the verge (you say within 5 years) of passing anyone in anything -- space or otherwise. China's space program, and its accomplishments, are almost entirely derivative: they copy what the Russians or US have already done. At this moment, the Chinese astronauts/taikuonauts are in Russia training. When China starts innovative BEYOND what others have already done, get back to me.
2) Your statistics lesson proves that China has...a lot of people. Typically, "genius" is described as being, say, in the top 1% of the population. Using that def'n, and assuming similar distributions, China should have ~12 million geniuses, while the US would have only 2.5 million. And guess what? China's geniuses all come to america. Chinese, and Asians, aren't smarter than anyone (go there and you'll figure it out), but the smart ones are all concentrated in the us, and they all study sciences (to escape their home countries).
3) The research Asians are doing in America is often the low-level, labor intensive lab stuff. For example, in computer science, they are writing code (NOT rocket science), not developing next generation computer architecture.
Ivy Leaguer
Wednesday, December 19, 2001 at 12:06:01 (PST)
DV8Ragazza,
About the malaria thing in Asia... it can't be helped, malarial mosquitos thrive in hot humid regions, you idiot. Mosquitos are also common in the SE U.S., so what are you insinuating? That all the whites who live there must be poor, dirty and have no toilets and plumbing? Stop yapping about dumb shit man... I barely read thru 1/4 of your post b4 I got bored and gave up.
watevazz
Tuesday, December 18, 2001 at 22:56:16 (PST)
Hey Ragazza,
How interesting that you react so strongly. Apparently I hit a raw nerve in your eurocentric arrogance. You are exactly the typical White guy I encounter every day, with a poor understanding of science and the history of science - but of course you won't let a little thing like ignorance get in the way of your superiority complex.
I talked about the historical lack of scientific institutions in Asia and you came back with the development of Zen and Buddhism. If that's the best you can do, this is going to be an awfully short debate. Oh well. Let's have a look at what else your *ahem* superior White mind has come up with:
"Much of today's hottest researh (as far as next-gen technology) is happening *outside* of Asia, not in it. At the top of the list would be nanotechnology... hardly being powered by Asian researchers."
Dude, you have no clue what you're talking about. The bulk of nanotechnology research at the university level *is* being done right now by grad students of Asian descent; the bulk of nanotechnology research at the corporate and government level *is* being done right now by scientists of Asian origin. When was the last time you visited a nanotech lab anyway? Open your eyes before you open your mouth.
NRI, a leading nanotech research institute, is entirely Asian and located *in* Asia. Wow, how can that be? I thought you said the hottest research is happening outside of Asia, not in it? I thought you said nanotechnology is hardly being powered by Asian researchers?
You wanna talk about next generation technology, why don't we also delve into genetic research and the cure for AIDS? Hot enough for ya? So who actually does the work in these areas of research? Who toils away in the labs to make the real progress? Who are the diligent workers behind the White spokesmen you see on TV? Do you have any idea?
Do you know anything about the rapid progress the Chinese are making in the space sciences? Do you know anything about the rockets and satellites they have launched? Do you know how they are poised to overtake the Americans in the next five years?
"The bit about 1.2 billion Chinese producing geniuses is quite an exaggeration. Given the high number of Chinese people who never even see a college, your statement becomes hard to prove."
Dude, do you know anything about statistics? Do you know anything about the normal distribution and standard deviation of IQ? Oh, this is so pathetic.
I'll give you a clue. First, do a little homework and find out what percentage of a population is generally classified at the "gifted" or genius level. Next, multiply this percentage by 1,273,111,290. That will give you an idea about the number of people with genius-level brains in China. It is a staggering amount, and I challenge you to tell us what it is. If you don't know the answer and don't know how to figure it out, then you've got no business talking about intelligence or prodigies, and should basically shut the fuck up.
You know, I love the idea that your Japanese roommate will see what I have written above and start to look at you as the self-righteous little moron that you are. He may even show it to some friends. I love it!
Harvey Mudd Alumnus
Tuesday, December 18, 2001 at 10:49:00 (PST)
DV8 Ragazza,
The sewers are just a random comment. I was hoping people would see the light humor of the "conspiracy" angle of the arguments.
It is just obvious that because we were educated in western English language or view of the world is skewd.
Only if we take the extra-circular opportinity to really dig in history you will see a lot of advancement in civilization is not what you think it is. Asian RA do not appear on any published papers. Break through made by asian such as heart transplants are not celebrated here.
Since you are of German descent, doesn't it irk you sometimes that WWII and Nazi are never thank for techical contributions they made to the world during and after the war. They are only vilified in the publics eye.
AC dropout
Tuesday, December 18, 2001 at 10:01:52 (PST)
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