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GOLDSEA |
ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
ARE IVY DEGREES WORTH THE SACRIFICES
ending their kids to ivy league universities is the dream of every Asian American parent. Or so it seems. And there is no shortage of young AA willing to oblige. As of 2000, Asian Americans made up 12-19% of the undergrad enrollments of the top-20 ivies.
No one questions the prestige associated with ivy degrees. In fact, sneer critics, that's the only thing bought with the extra money. And even that, they add, is wearing thin in a nation in which he cultural center of gravity has shifted to California.
It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles. But the criticisms run deeper than return on investment. Some Asian Americans who have attended ivy league colleges have come away regretting their decisions for other reasons.
Foremost is the sense that the ivies are structured for the benefit of legatees, the progeny of blueblooded alumni. Comprising upwards of 40% of some ivies, the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards. The result is that AA students with excellent credentials are the workhorses preserving the institutions' high academic reputations, thereby giving a free ride to undeserving legatees.
Another common complaint is that the deck is stacked socially against Asian males in a system designed to preserve the princely status quo of the scions of WASP families. A disproportionate number of attractive AA females are admitted by the ivies, some have observed, while far fewer attractive AA males are admitted. This subtle bias, suspect critics, is implemented in the screening interviews used by most ivies.
Then there's the Eurocentric worldview imposed by the courses. Not to mention the lousy weather, bland food and having to put up with locals hostile toward Asians. Contrast all this against the majority-ease lifestyles enjoyed by the AA in, say, the UC campuses.
The bragging rights an ivy education affords parents, conclude critics, are far outweighed by the psychic and emotional sacrifices exacted from their kids.
Does an ivy education provide rewards commensurate with the sacrifices? Or is it a trap for AA with overzealous parents with old-world views?
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:01:14 PM)
This is quite frankly the biggest pile of BS I’ve ever seen in my life. This is just another sad attempt to discredit the Ivys. UCB should not be mentioned in the same breath as any ivy league school for undergraduate work.
“In the fall 2001 freshman class
at Berkeley,there were between 1700 -1800 freshman who scored above 700 in the Math portion of the SAT”
actually there were only 1675. its not that you’re off by a lot, but if you’re going to give statistics, do us a favor and cut the BS. ( http://osr.berkeley.edu/Public/ STUDENT.DATA/PUBLICATIONS/UG/ugf01.html )
“There are more Asian freshman in the fall 2001 entering class in the entire UC System campuses than whites.”
I hope you’re not trying to assert more Asians equates to better academics. If not, why is this line here?
”Sure there are 1600 freshman in the Harvard 2001 entering class and 3700 at Berkeley. Remember however that 85 % of Berkeley freshman come from California,Arizona and Nevada.”
More BS. Actually, there are 4491 students in the freshman class. Who’s ass did you pull the 3700 out of? Oh, and btw, Berkeley is 90%+ instate (that means just California). Seriously, are you a pathological lair?
“For the past 10 years the number of freshman who scored above 700 in the Math portion of the SAT at Harvard had not risen above 1300, and usually fluctuated at around 1200.”
For a northern cal liberal, you’re quite horrible at distorting data. By your own figures, only 37% (1675/4491) of UCB’s freshman scored over 700 on the math SAT I as opposed to Harvard’s 75% ( using your Harvard figures which I guarantee are wrong, 1200/1600)
Okay, you wanna talk straight numbers? Lets do that. You seem to have forgotten to mention that Berkeley has more students with 1100s SAT scores (and below) than all northeastern ivy league schools COMBINED! Why didn’t you mention that one?
” The number of freshman at Berkeley who scored above 700 in the Math portion of the SAT has been increasing for the past 20 years continiously. Harvard could not increase the number of freshman who scored above 700 in the Math portion of the SAT”
For all practical purposed, everyone knows that UCB does not reject people with 1500+ SAT scores unless they’re just truly pathetic. Saying Harvard cannot increase its math SAT shows just what a moron you are. Harvard rejected over 2000 people with 1500+ SAT I scores.
“The end result of the massive use of legacy preferences in the Ivy League is loss of racial diversity and intellectual vitality.”
Legacies account for ~10% of each class.
” The heavy emphasis of public universities on grades and standardized test scores as a basis of admission in contrast to private universities , with their vast system of preferences..”
Vast system of preferences… You mean like actually looking at how you spent the last 4 years of your life? OMG… you want college admissions to be based off just SATs and GPAs? What a blithering idiot! Once you figure out that the SAT is biased and that GPAs are not created equal, then we can address your superficiality problem.
UCB is the most overrated school in the county. Sure, if you’re going to stay holed up in CA with a whole bunch of asian engineers, you can pass off your alma matter as a Top 5 school; but outside of CA, there are 2 levels, 1) top 25 (including liberal arts school) and 2) and everything after that. UCB falls into the latter. As for your highly touted engineering program… my dad is a VP at Oracle, they don’t even recruit at your school! (just the top 15) Lastly, UCB’s acceptance rate is so artificial. Everyone knows that any CA high school student who applies to one UC is going to check the box for UCB as well. No recommendations, no extra application, no mid year grade reports- just check as many boxes as your want. This all leads to a heap of under-qualified Hs students who apply to UCB for the hell of it. No one fills out an Ivy app with 2 recommendations, mid year grade reports, and 2 essays just for the hell of it, sorry. You guys aren’t even the public school system with the most money! ( dotcom meltdown hurts doesn’t it?)
Get a real education and go back to UCB for graduate work.
ivyprep
Monday, January 21, 2002 at 02:18:54 (PST)
As a Harvard Alum, I have the following questions:
"In the fall 2001 freshman class
at Berkeley,there were between 1700 -1800 freshman who scored above 700 in the Math portion of the SAT, There were only slightly above 1200 freshman in the fall 2001 entering class at Harvard who managed the same feat."
Do you have the proportions? Harvard may be admitting fewer numbers.
"Here is the supreme insult at Harvard, there are more Asian freshman in the fall 2001 entering class at Berkeley who scored above 700 in the Math portion of the SAT than white freshman who demonstrated the same achievement in the fall 2001 entering class at Harvard."
This may be more an insult to the white Americans rather than Harvard. Most whites I know need a calculator to know that 25 multiplied by 25 is 625 or 200 X 200 is 400. Obviously the white Americans at Enron did not know that a debt of 5 billion and cash in hand of 2 billion means a debt of 3 billion. This lack of math knowledge may have resulted in the Enron CEO Mr. Ken Lay telling his employees that his company is in good shape. Moreover Arthur Andersen staff who looked at the Enron numbers were all white. Did a lack of not math but arithmetic ability lead to the demise of Enron? If all accountants are white when all the top achievers in math in the US are Asian, one has to wonder about Arthur Andersen's quality of work.
"Sure there are 1600 freshman in the Harvard 2001 entering class and 3700 at Berkeley. Remember however that 85 % of Berkeley freshman come from California,Arizona and Nevada."
Dont understand your logic here. Please explain.
"The combined population of these 3 states equal the populations of New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, Delaware, Maine, Vermont, Rhode Island and New Hampshire. 40 % of the Harvard entering class approximately comes from these aforementioned northeastern states."
Are you sure?
"On that basis alone, your can see the magnitude of Berkeley's achievement. The end result of the massive use of legacy preferences in the Ivy League is loss of racial diversity and intellectual vitality."
That is why they fight to keep affirmitive action. If AA is done with Harvard would get sued for becoming more white. On the other hand if both AA and the legacies are done away with, the institutions would become more Asian...which means the white alumni would not contribute? Would the Japanese and Asian companies pick up the slack, as they have done at Purdue University's mechanical engineering program?
"Of course Prop. 209 boosted Asian freshman increases to its current fall 2001 percentage at 48 % of the freshman class."
Soon all the sciences and engineering program and math oriented business admin programs would be only Asian.
"This is in dire contrast to the situation at the Ivy League, Stanford and at other private universities."
Stanford admits more Asians proportionately than Harvard...again they do not take state money and are dependent on white alumni who are already complaining about the fact that an Asian-American and Turkish-American female basketball players are getting a lot of publicity. One also has to note that a number of white spectators disappear once the two top contestants in sports such as figure skating are Asian or black, and along with it goes the advertising revenue. Although whites regard the Asians as a model minority, would like to find out whether they would continue supporting Berkeley if white numbers fall below 39%.
"Again because of the heavy emphasis of public universities on grades and standardized test scores , Asians were able to replace blacks as the largest non - white racial group in many leading state flagship public universities.This is in contrast to the Ivy League and other private universities where whites managed to retain their numbers and percentages due to the vast system of alumni, athletic and " development preferences".
Only in California, and I hear the numbers in Washington state may be growing as well. Public universiies in the south also have legacies system, especially those involved with fraternities and sororities at the Unviersity of Alabama? Ever heard of the machine? Harvard still follows AA..they will not give up either the legacies or AA because it would mean the majority Asian student body at least in the sciences and economics...which would mean less white alumni contributions.
"In fact, the number and percentages of whites have declined in the key public flagship universities because of the heavy emphasis of public schools on grades and standardized test scores. This is also the reason as to why Asians have replaced blacks as the largest non -white racial group in the key state public flagship universities."
Not true (see below)
The list of key flagship universities where both situations occured is long and varied. These key public flaghsip universities are : the UC system , the Universities of Washington, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Texas, Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, Oregon, Florida,
Georgia, Nevada ,Connecticut, Massachusetss, Rutgers, SUNY University Centers ( Binghamton,Stony Brook,Albany, Buffalo,Geneseo ) Cuny Baruch, Cuny Queens, NJIT,Georgia Tech, University of Houston etc.
Arizona: white enrollment at U of A close to 95%...one of the whitest in the country.
Colorado...slight decline, not much.
Utah...never seen as many whites as I have in Logan or Salt Lake City. Go to St. George's Utah...you will find whites who ran away from Asians in California.
Texas...Asian numbers have increased sharply. Whites are fast becoming a minority.
Georgia: not true.
Oklahoma : not true.
Florida: whites are fast becoming a minority.
You missed New Mexico, Rutgers and Maryland.
Kansas: not true.
I am not sure about the other schools. However, white enrollments are sharply up in the Universities of Alabama, Mississippi,Clemson, South Carolina, Virginia, Wyoming, Montana, Nebraska, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Ohio State, Ohio, South Dakota, North Dakota, Alaska, West Virginia, Florida State and Idaho. Could it be white flight from Asians? Perhaps they could not compete with the Asians after AA was abolished in CA, and they are bitter about it?
"This is very damning evidence that whites managed to keep their numbers and percentage in the Ivies and private schools only because of the vast orefereces system, whereas their numbers and percentage declined in the key flagship public universities."
It is not evidence...it is a fact, the reason for which is explained earlier.
"This is finally the reason as to why public levy tax money should not be used to fund medical or scientific research at Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, Stanford and other privates because of their rotten alumni legacy preference system. Tell Congress to do just that."
The majority in this country is still white and whites benefit from the system..although they lie that the best person should get the job...if the best persons got the job at Enron, the employees (most of whom are white) would not be in the mess that they are in today. When they argue against AA the whites would say that it should be decided by GPA and SATs. On the other hand, if the major competition comes from the Asians, they would argue that the GPAs and SATs should not be the only factor...in fact they like AA...but only if it is for whites!
Asian American Male
Sunday, January 20, 2002 at 14:41:30 (PST)
leo cruz, let my tag be "biaknabato",
That is some convincing evidence. But what are the breakdown for the verbal section of the SAT?`
AC dropout
Sunday, January 20, 2002 at 13:34:40 (PST)
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