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ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
ARE IVY DEGREES WORTH THE SACRIFICES
ending their kids to ivy league universities is the dream of every Asian American parent. Or so it seems. And there is no shortage of young AA willing to oblige. As of 2000, Asian Americans made up 12-19% of the undergrad enrollments of the top-20 ivies.
No one questions the prestige associated with ivy degrees. In fact, sneer critics, that's the only thing bought with the extra money. And even that, they add, is wearing thin in a nation in which he cultural center of gravity has shifted to California.
It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles. But the criticisms run deeper than return on investment. Some Asian Americans who have attended ivy league colleges have come away regretting their decisions for other reasons.
Foremost is the sense that the ivies are structured for the benefit of legatees, the progeny of blueblooded alumni. Comprising upwards of 40% of some ivies, the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards. The result is that AA students with excellent credentials are the workhorses preserving the institutions' high academic reputations, thereby giving a free ride to undeserving legatees.
Another common complaint is that the deck is stacked socially against Asian males in a system designed to preserve the princely status quo of the scions of WASP families. A disproportionate number of attractive AA females are admitted by the ivies, some have observed, while far fewer attractive AA males are admitted. This subtle bias, suspect critics, is implemented in the screening interviews used by most ivies.
Then there's the Eurocentric worldview imposed by the courses. Not to mention the lousy weather, bland food and having to put up with locals hostile toward Asians. Contrast all this against the majority-ease lifestyles enjoyed by the AA in, say, the UC campuses.
The bragging rights an ivy education affords parents, conclude critics, are far outweighed by the psychic and emotional sacrifices exacted from their kids.
Does an ivy education provide rewards commensurate with the sacrifices? Or is it a trap for AA with overzealous parents with old-world views?
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:01:14 PM)
"On the other hand, if the major competition comes from the Asians, they would argue that the GPAs and SATs should not be the only factor...in fact they like AA...but only if it is for whites!" Asian American Male, Sunday, January 20, 2002 at 14:41:30 (PST)
"OMG… you want college admissions to be based off just SATs and GPAs? What a blithering idiot! Once you figure out that the SAT is biased and that GPAs are not created equal, then we can address your superficiality problem." Ivyprep, Monday, January 21, 2002 at 02:18:54 (PST)
Asian American Male is a true prophet. Almost twelve hours later his prophecy is validated.
Prophecy
Monday, January 21, 2002 at 19:06:22 (PST)
After reading how "all the top mathematicians in America are Asian," I decided, just out of curiosity, to see the names of the winners of the Putnam Math contest, among the most prestigious in the world. Interestingly, not very many Asians among the top 12 finishers (12/2000, most recent date available):
GABRIEL D. CARROLL University of California, Berkeley
ABHINAV KUMAR Massachusetts Institute of Technology
CIPRIAN MANOLESCU Harvard University
PAVLO PYLYAVSKYY Massachusetts Institute of Technology
ALEXANDER B. SCHWARTZ Harvard University
DENISS CEBIKINS Massachusetts Institute of Technology
LI-CHUNG CHEN Harvard University
JOHN J. CLYDE Duke University
JONATHAN G. CURTIS Duke University
STEPHEN E. HAAS Harvey Mudd College
KEVIN D. LACKER Duke University
GEORGE LEE Harvard University
JAMES M. MERRYFIELD University of California, Berkeley
Likewise, not many Asians on the top 5 teams (how did Duke win without any?):
1 Duke University: John J. Clyde, Jonathan G. Curtis, Kevin D. Lacker
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology: Aram W. Harrow, Abhinav Kumar, Ivan Petrakiev
3 Harvard University: Lukasz Fidkowski, Davesh Maulik, Christopher C. Mihelich
4 California Institute of Technology: Kevin P. Costello, Christopher M. Hirata, Michael Shulman
5 University of Toronto: Jimmy Chui, Pavel T. Gyrya, Pompiliu Manuel Zamfir
In fact, even when you dig down among "honorable mentions", etc., there just aren't many Asians.
Is it possible that Asians excel at memorizing for standardized tests -- and not much else?
Math guy
Monday, January 21, 2002 at 16:01:46 (PST)
I would just like to address Asian American Male’s post on the whole asian superiority thing.
“The majority in this country is still white and whites benefit from the system..although they lie that the best person should get the job...if the best persons got the job at Enron, the employees (most of whom are white) would not be in the mess that they are in today.”
To say that the Enron debacle would not have happened if Asians ran the company, or if AA was not used is ridiculous. This was not an issue about people being competent; it’s an issue about fraud and greed. There are some greedy white goons out there, and there are plenty of sketchy asian goons as well.
“This lack of math knowledge may have resulted in the Enron CEO Mr. Ken Lay telling his employees that his company is in good shape. Moreover Arthur Andersen staff who looked at the Enron numbers were all white. Did a lack of not math but arithmetic ability lead to the demise of Enron? If all accountants are white when all the top achievers in math in the US are Asian, one has to wonder about Arthur Andersen's quality of work.”
This is posted by someone who obviously doesn’t know much about the enron situation. The enron collapse is a story about fraud, greed, and lies. Andersen and the enron execs are and were perfectly capable of doing the accounting properly, they just chose not to.
“Comprising upwards of 40% of some ivies, the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards.”
I feel that this is a completely baseless claim.
Okay, lets just pretend this were true for a moment. And furthermore, lets pretend these legacies are the dumbest people at these Ivys ( 0-40th percentile) as you seem to imply ( “the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards”). Well the median legatee at Harvard would STILL have ~1385 SAT score (www.usnews.com , reports that Harvard’s 25th percentile is 1410), while UCB’s OVERALL median (all those people who got in on merit, not legacy status) is only ~1325.
Futhermore, you are forgetting that a lot of these legatee are coming out of schools like Exeter, Phillips academy, Deerfield, Groton, and choate rosemary. These kids had to slug their way through 4 years of an extremely tough coursework with the smartest people in the country.
You’re an admissions officer with one spot left, who would you take? The kid who went to San Marino High School and got a 3.9/4 or someone from Exeter with a 3.7/4?
Legacies are certainly not put up to the same standards and non-legacies, but to say that they’re under-qualified or that they make up ~40% of the demographics is preposterous.
“And even that, they add, is wearing thin in a nation in which the cultural center of gravity has shifted to California.”
I don’t agree with this statement. California might be the best place for you if you’re an Asian and appreciate the company of fellow Asians, but that doesn’t mean that California is the cultural center of anything. California use to be just Hollywood money and dotcom money; well, now its just the former.
It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles.
“The result is that AA students with excellent credentials are the workhorses preserving the institutions' high academic reputations, thereby giving a free ride to undeserving legatees.”
A lof of people weak in statistics make a big deal about Asians being rejected at a higher proportion than whites. Just because Harvard rejects say 70% of Asians with 1420s and 4.3s and only 40% of White with 1420’s and 4.3’s, it does not mean there is any discrimination going on. If you want to make generalizations, sure Asians can put up the numbers, but whites tend to do more of the Extra-Cs that privates look at. Whites has far more leadership roles and there are very few recruited asian athletes (don’t try to attack athletic recruitment, UCB and UCLA wouldn’t be much without give free rides to 800SAT morons). Finally, as I mentioned before, Asians don’t send their children to schools like Exeter and Groton. These are the schools that send 10+ to every ivy every year. Sure xGunn and San Marino are great schools, but when you get dinged by Harvard, don’t cry about oppression.
“A disproportionate number of attractive AA females are admitted by the ivies, some have observed, while far fewer attractive AA males are admitted. This subtle bias, suspect critics, is implemented in the screening interviews used by most ivies.”
The interviewers have absolutely NO pull whatsoever in your admission. The only purpose interviews serve is to provide information to the prospective student. This is well documented in my interviewer guidebooks. If however you feel that this is a noticeable crime, you should definitely look into the optional picture that many ivys want on their application
“The bragging rights an ivy education affords parents, conclude critics, are far outweighed by the psychic and emotional sacrifices exacted from their kids.”
I whole-heartedly agree. No one should be going to any school that damages them psychologically or emotionally.
ivyprep
Monday, January 21, 2002 at 15:11:55 (PST)
Typical white male response...I presume you are one...I hope that you are not an Asian. Just like I predicted in my earlier post(s).
"Vast system of preferences… You mean like actually looking at how you spent the last 4 years of your life? OMG… you want college admissions to be based off just SATs and GPAs? What a blithering idiot! Once you figure out that the SAT is biased and that GPAs are not created equal, then we can address your superficiality problem."
Typical of American whites. White people in this country say that SAT is biased and GPAs are unequal when they loose out to Asians. Strange. It is the same argument that the blacks and hispanics make when they want to continue Affirmitive Action and the whites disagree. What an irony!! Do you know about the Center for Individual Liberties...they always harp about how GPA and SAT should be the only factors in their fight against affirmitive action. You sound just like those blacks and hispanics clamoring for Affirmitive Action.
"UCB is the most overrated school in the county. Sure, if you’re going to stay holed up in CA with a whole bunch of asian engineers, you can pass off your alma matter as a Top 5 school."
Asians perform better than whites in engineering. Why do you think they import tons of Asian engineers into this country? You first have to prove that there are no Americans with equal qualifications.
"but outside of CA, there are 2 levels, 1) top 25 (including liberal arts school) and 2) and everything after that. UCB falls into the latter."
UCB is ranked in the top ten in economics, top 25 in business school, and top fifteen in engineering. It is also rated among the top five public schools in the country by US News and World Report.
"As for your highly touted engineering program… my dad is a VP at Oracle, they don’t even recruit at your school! (just the top 15)"
May be your dad is not aware that Asians make the best engineers. Many including Microsoft recruit Asian engineers in schools ranging from Berkeley to MIT. Perhaps your dad is made of the same clothe that the VPs in Enron were made of...good old boys. Perhaps we should sell Oracle share before it follows the path of Enron.
By the way I went to Purdue and Harvard as well. The best school for engineering is perhaps MIT...again MIT is mostly minority...Asian (40%) and blacks and hispanics (15%). Harvard's admission criteria are different...and the tenure policy is based on alumni connections (who brings the most money) rather than scholarly achievement. Thus the Nobel Prize winner Jo Stiglitz is not recruited but the chatter box Jeff Sachs gets tenure...and through legacy (riding on the coattails of his old man) Larry Summers ends up becoming the President...however the latter is not just unique to Harvard.
Asian American Male
Monday, January 21, 2002 at 12:37:41 (PST)
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