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ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
ARE IVY DEGREES WORTH THE SACRIFICES
ending their kids to ivy league universities is the dream of every Asian American parent. Or so it seems. And there is no shortage of young AA willing to oblige. As of 2000, Asian Americans made up 12-19% of the undergrad enrollments of the top-20 ivies.
No one questions the prestige associated with ivy degrees. In fact, sneer critics, that's the only thing bought with the extra money. And even that, they add, is wearing thin in a nation in which he cultural center of gravity has shifted to California.
It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles. But the criticisms run deeper than return on investment. Some Asian Americans who have attended ivy league colleges have come away regretting their decisions for other reasons.
Foremost is the sense that the ivies are structured for the benefit of legatees, the progeny of blueblooded alumni. Comprising upwards of 40% of some ivies, the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards. The result is that AA students with excellent credentials are the workhorses preserving the institutions' high academic reputations, thereby giving a free ride to undeserving legatees.
Another common complaint is that the deck is stacked socially against Asian males in a system designed to preserve the princely status quo of the scions of WASP families. A disproportionate number of attractive AA females are admitted by the ivies, some have observed, while far fewer attractive AA males are admitted. This subtle bias, suspect critics, is implemented in the screening interviews used by most ivies.
Then there's the Eurocentric worldview imposed by the courses. Not to mention the lousy weather, bland food and having to put up with locals hostile toward Asians. Contrast all this against the majority-ease lifestyles enjoyed by the AA in, say, the UC campuses.
The bragging rights an ivy education affords parents, conclude critics, are far outweighed by the psychic and emotional sacrifices exacted from their kids.
Does an ivy education provide rewards commensurate with the sacrifices? Or is it a trap for AA with overzealous parents with old-world views?
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:01:13 PM)
I don't think an Ivy league education is worth the sacrifices by parents. When I was accepted at Yale for undergrad, my parents were all for me going there and both of them started looking for better jobs and delayed buying a house. I knew that if I went to Yale, I would be under their control, and I would have a guilt trip everyday if I didn't do perfectly. So I took a full scholarship from a state school in order to escape my dependence.
Brickmanli
Wednesday, January 23, 2002 at 09:36:01 (PST)
ivyprep:
"Asians don’t send their children to schools like Exeter and Groton"
err? Exeter's most recent entering class is around 25% Asian. On the other hand, your idea about a guy with a 3.7 from Exeter being compared to a 3.9 from San Marino High isn't really the case, I attended one of those elite prep schools and know at least one guy with a 3.1 who still made it to the ivy league: me. (No sports recruitment, no legacy connections, and now big pool of money that I could donate).
math guy:
"Is it possible that Asians excel at memorizing for standardized tests -- and not much else?"
Hey, and aside from that, all of them are men. This is obvious proof that women only excel at kissing up to teachers to get good grades to get into college, and not much else. Got any other big logical conclusions from this greatly representative set of data?
In truth the idea that Asians don't have enough of those intangible qualities that admissions officers are looking for to form a "well-balanced" student body is not even a new form of discrimination, but one recycled from the 50s when Jewish students with top grades would be given zero marks by their interviewers under BS categories such as "Character," "Leadership," or my personal favorite, "Manliness," to justify rejecting them. Anyone remember the days when Columbia turned 50% Jewish practically overnight?
However, basing college entrance off a single exam, or even a collection of exams, will get you a bunch of kids who are good at taking exams, along with a few who bribed the examiners or otherwise cheated. (Since US public exams don't even require that much memorization, I don't know precisely what redeeming skill a guy with a 1600 has, though the SAT is a VERY accurate predictor of how he will stand academically among his classmates by the end of freshman year.)
T.H. Lien
Wednesday, January 23, 2002 at 00:46:32 (PST)
“Asian American Male is a true prophet. Almost twelve hours later his prophecy is validated.”
Actually “Prophecy”- I’m asian so settle down.
Look Asian-American Male; I want to have a nice intellectual exchange of ideas. Unlike most other people here, I am not here to talk about the “superiority” of any peoples. Just because I rag on UCB and know that prep schoolers work three times harder than the rest of the nation’s high schooler’s, I’m white? I give you arguments that aren’t based on race, so why don’t you give me a rebuttal that isn’t based on race.
I asked you a simple question to get your position on something and you go off on some anti-white thing. You could not even understand the issue. Are you sure you went to the Harvard in Cambridge, MA?
“White people in this country say that SAT is biased and GPAs are unequal when they loose out to Asians.”
Are you shitting me? The SAT is certainly biased towards whites. It’s a test written by WASPs for WASP kids.
This is where you sound like an idiot. I asked you simply whether you think SATs and GPA should be the only factors in admissions (“you want college admissions to be based off just SATs and GPAs?”). Then you start going off about affirmative action?!?! Huh? Where did that come from? You don’t think high schoolers should be given any credit if say… they were an Intel Talent Search finalist? (which many Asians are) You don’t think winning something like that shows you intellectual promise or your dedication to academics? Just answer the damn question and stop trying to blur the issue: do you or do not you want admissions based on solely GPA and SAT?
“Do you know about the Center for Individual Liberties...they always harp about how GPA and SAT should be the only factors in their fight against affirmitive action.”
No I do not know who those people are? What’s your point? Are you saying that your stance coincides with theirs or are you saying this think tank is the messiah? I really have no idea, clue me in.
“You sound just like those blacks and hispanics clamoring for Affirmitive Action.”
Where am I talking about admitting people based on their race?
Then I start talking about how UCB enjoys much higher prestige in California:
"UCB is the most overrated school in the county. Sure, if you’re going to stay holed up in CA with a whole bunch of asian engineers, you can pass off your alma matter as a Top 5 school."
Why do you start talking about Asian superiority? (“Asians perform better than whites in engineering. Why do you think they import tons of Asian engineers into this country? You first have to prove that there are no Americans with equal qualifications.”) What school did you go to again? Do you think that an attack on UCB is an attack on all Asians or something?
So then we move on to your defense of UCB. Look, I don’t want to spend anymore time arguing about how good Berkeley is or how crappy it is, because I could write a book on how Berkeley is overrated and I’m sure other people could write a book how on great it is.
“UCB is ranked in the top ten in economics, top 25 in business school, and top fifteen in engineering. It is also rated among the top five public schools in the country by US News and World Report.”
What I do want to do is get people off this US News being the bible crap. Let me just ask you to think about something. In the last four rankings, CAL Tech has moved in the range of #1 to #9. We’re talking about schools here people; schools that are sometimes over 2 centuries old. These aren’t football teams BCS rankings where you can slide 10 spots for loosing to an unranked team. If you’ve bought into schools going from #1 to almost outside of the top 10 in 3 years, you’ve gotten suckered into US New’s moneymaking machine. Are you actually going to let a few people dictate to you what criteria is important in ranking schools and buy into it just like that?
“UCB is ranked in the top ten in economics, top 25 in business school, and top fifteen in engineering. It is also rated among the top five public schools in the country by US News and World Report.”
Okay kid. You’re having a REAL hard time focusing on the issue once again. I said that my dad is a vp at Oracle, and that Oracle doesn’t recruit at Berkeley and you start jumping to conclusions. Lets just start from the top shall we?
“May be your dad is not aware that Asians make the best engineers.”
You just keep going back to this Asian superiority thing don’t you? The fact that Oracle doesn’t recruit at UCB, says nothing about their perceptions of Asians. When did I say they just recruited white people from Berkeley? I said they don’t recruit from Berkeley PERIOD, what does this have to do with Asians being the best engineers?
And please, don’t make blanketing claims like that without citing a credible source. I don’t appreciate it when other races make blanketing and baseless statements about themselves( and negative ones towards Asians), so lets not throw mud around at each other.
Secondly, my dad is neither in charge of recruiting nor does he make the recruiting schedule.
“Perhaps your dad is made of the same clothe that the VPs in Enron were made of...good old boys. Perhaps we should sell Oracle share before it follows the path of Enron.”
I haven’t heard of a good ole Asian boy network in California but I’ll let you know if I do. Seriously though, you think that there could be a good ole boy network at Oracle. Credible tech companies are notorious for being meritocracies.
The good ole boy network had nothing to do with the collapse of Enron. The good ole boy network does not lead to the collapse of a company and there are corporations(such as investment banks) that make heaps of money while hirining out of the good ole boys network. However, that practice would work at a tech company. Enron’s collapse is a result of greed and fraud.
Yes, and I agree that MIT is a wonderful school and they have a lot of Asians there. Oracle also recruits there. So what?
“Many including Microsoft recruit Asian engineers in schools ranging from Berkeley to MIT.”
Since when is MS a selective employer? Microsoft also recruits at Arizona State, Colorado State, Florida State, and Fresno State just to name a few.
Once again, this has nothing to do with racial superiority. Just because I bash on UCB and know that prep schoolers ( the asian ones too) work three times harder than those at publics doesn’t mean I want anything to do with a debate on racial superiority.
From the homepage, “racial bias in ivy admissions?”
Its obviously biased towards “white culture”, but they don’t discriminate.
ivyprep
Tuesday, January 22, 2002 at 22:24:15 (PST)
Math guy (and others)
look at the facts man before you post on something, trying to make someone else (or some other group) look stupid.
There's a reason why in your list of the Putnam winners Asians don't comprise the majority. Maybe there's the fact that we are not the majority in this country. Considering the population disparity (and the hurdles of language, money and culture faced by Asian-American immigrants), we are overrepresented on that list and others. Look at high school math competitions in the U.S. like the USAMO, Mandlebrot, AMC, ARML, and the worldwide IMO. You find that the story there is quite different. You also make the mistake of generalizing based on a single year's data, not accounting for generational hiccups and other factors.
That's not to say that it wasn't a mistake on someone else's part to make another blanket statement saying that only asians (in america, no less) can do math. That's simply not true. But you debase your argument by making such superficial replies, and by making such a pointless and silly insinuation in your last comment. You only anger Asians and ignore plentiful evidence to the contrary by slamming "not much else?"
Please. Next time get your own facts straight and widen your perspective before mouthing off.
hs am
Tuesday, January 22, 2002 at 22:08:21 (PST)
Math guy:
It's true that not all or even most of the top mathematicians are Asian, but that certainly doesn't mean "that Asians excel at memorizing for standardized tests -- and not much else". You are picking one particular test in the realm of math and attempting to imply something concerning Asians, but as a mathematician at a top 5 school, I certainly don't buy it.
Anyone in math, especially at the very highest levels, knows that race has nothing to do with mathematical ability and that Asians are well-represented in that talent. In any case, there are many important qualities and factors that input into being a good (or even a world-class) mathematician besides pure intelligence and mathematical ability (of which Asians are not under-represented). Upbringing (e.g., coming from a scholarly family, having a mathematician for a parent, having access to good schools), cultural factors, and personality factors matter a lot.
Most mathematicians, especially at the highest levels, know that the Putnam has basically zero correlation with how good of a mathematician you are or can be, i.e., the quality of research which you are capable of doing--which is what really matters. Anyone who doesn't believe this should simply ask those who should know best: mathematicians. It's true that those who excel at the Putnam are very intelligent and mathematicially talented (at least in solving Putnam-type problems), but practically all of them have extensive backgrounds in similar mathematical competitions and not even most of those who do well in the Putnam end up being mathematicians; on the other hand, most good or even world-class mathematicians do not do exceptionally well on the Putnam, if they even cared or bothered to take it in the first place (if they were in the U.S. or Canada).
It's interesting that you attempt to use the Putnam as if it were a good overall indication of mathematical ability and ask if it's "possible that Asians excel at memorizing for standardized tests -- and not much else?". Does this mean that for the SAT's you believe it's possible to "memorize" things but the same is not true for the Putnam? The Putnam consists of 12 "Putnam-type" problems. One can actually study for it, and those who do well do study for it! They even have extension experience in taking such tests in similar competitions, many times going all the way before high school.
By the way, can you please tell me how one "memorizes" for the SAT? I suppose those Asians who do well on the SAT simply "memorize" for it, while does whites who do well are just naturally intelligent and don't "memorize" for it, while those whites who don't do well simply didn't bother to "memorize" it because they couldn't be bothered to? To be able to do well in math research, you HAVE to be creative (despite what most people might think being a mathematician is like), so as a mathematician I am appalled whenever someone implies that Asians are not creative (I am using this term in a the broadest sense), as if Asians simply "memorized" everything in sight. No race has a monopoly on creativity in any of its form. Even the verbal gymnastics used by such people is appalling... For Asians, it's memorizing rather than studying; for whites, it's being creative rather than studying. When Asians work together, they're not being individualistic and creative; when whites work together, they're being a team. When Asians work alone, it's because they don't know how to be part of a team; when whites work alone, it's because they're individualistic and creative. Right.
For those who care about math contests:
The Putnam is only given annually in the U.S. and Canada at the undergraduate level. If Asians are not particularly well-represented, it's because not many take it in the first place! Only a few thousand total students take it and they are almost entirely the ones who are really into math. There are many students great at math who don't take it for whatever reasons. Even though the top 20 schools have levels of Asian enrollment disproportionate to their make-up of the general population and even though Asians are stereotyped to be good at math, it does not mean the same level of Asians are actually that interested in math (so much as to take the Putnam or major in math). In fact, I would say a disproportionately low number of Asian Americans want to go into math or who even major in math. This isn't surprising since, generally speaking, new-generation Asian Americans care more about becoming engineers, lawyers, doctors, IT professionals, etc. One can be good (even world-class) at math and choose not to do it for whatever reasons; I know of many such people.
There are, however, many Asian Americians who have done well at the Putnam. To name two off the top of my head: Kiran Kedlaya (Indian American) and Lenny Ng (Chinese American). They've each been Putnam Fellows (the highest distinction) 3 times, I think. You can search for their homepages on the web.
At the world level, there's the International Mathematical Olympiad, but it's at the high school level. The 2001 results for the IMO can be found here (unless the editor excised it):
http://imo.wolfram.com/scores/bycountry.html
One can see that Asian countries and Asian individuals did well in the 2001 IMO. Note that China came in first place, being the only one with all gold medals, and that 2 of the 4 perfect scores were achieved by Chinese students.
Mathematician who believes in Asian America
Tuesday, January 22, 2002 at 15:01:35 (PST)
Math guy
Well, thank God, there is one Indian in your list. Well done Abhinav. May be the reason why I haven't heard the name of this contest is that I am a mechanical engineer.
Akash
Tuesday, January 22, 2002 at 15:00:36 (PST)
"Futhermore, you are forgetting that a lot of these legatee are coming out of schools like Exeter, Phillips academy, Deerfield, Groton, and choate rosemary. These kids had to slug their way through 4 years of an extremely tough coursework with the smartest people in the country."
These schools are legacies themselves. America prides itself in being different from Britain. Our country was founded on the fact that there were no equal opportunities in UK. So the pioneers came here. So, what are you saying? Do we go back to the British system of elitism?
"You’re an admissions officer with one spot left, who would you take? The kid who went to San Marino High School and got a 3.9/4 or someone from Exeter with a 3.7/4?"
Our conservative President thinks that San Marino High School in CA's candidate should get the slot. As per the new rules in Texas, the top 5% of all schools get the slot in the UT system. However, I agree that it is not the answer. What we need is the more equitable financing of education, which means doing away with the property taxes financing, which benefits the rich school districts.
"Legacies are certainly not put up to the same standards and non-legacies, but to say that they’re under-qualified or that they make up ~40% of the demographics is preposterous."
Not all of them, but half of them...been to Harvard, seen it and done that. If you want to see poor quality go to the Department of International Health in the School of Public Health. That is what I call miserable quality.
"California might be the best place for you if you’re an Asian and appreciate the company of fellow Asians, but that doesn’t mean that California is the cultural center of anything. California use to be just Hollywood money and dotcom money; well, now its just the former."
I can say the same thing about Louisiana. Louisiana might be the best place for you if you’re a corrupt and redneck white and appreciate the company of fellow redneck whites, but that doesn’t mean that Louisiana is the cultural center of anything. Yes, California use to be just Hollywood money and dotcom money; well, now its just the former...but Louisiana is neither.
"It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles."
May be true of some fields..but not true of others.
"If you want to make generalizations, sure Asians can put up the numbers, but whites tend to do more of the Extra-Cs that privates look at."
But it is the whites who cry foul when blacks and hispanics get in with lower scores and plenty of extracurricular activities (see my next post). AA and special preferences were abolished because the whites voted for Prop 209 claiming that only test scores and GPAs mattered, and many still argue the same. The whites cannot have their cake and eat it too.
"Whites has far more leadership roles and there are very few recruited asian athletes"
Changing among the women...two of the best basketball players in the country are Lindsay Yamasaki (Asian origin) and Shebnem Kimciyaglou (Turkish origin) of Stanford. Several volleball players are Asian American women, all over this country. But, I would concede that along with the white women, they are no match for most black women. Germans had to take drugs in the 1988 olympics to try and beat the African American atheletes, but they failed.
"Finally, as I mentioned before, Asians don’t send their children to schools like Exeter and Groton."
Legacy problem or money problem or both?
"The interviewers have absolutely NO pull whatsoever in your admission."
True. Exeter and other private schools would do the trick. and furthermore, Ivies are not good in engineering. MIT and Stanford are not ivies...no one interested in engineering should go to Ivies...if you are poor consider a state school such as Purdue, Michigan and yes, UC Berkeley. Harvard does not have much of an engineering program.
Asian American Male, MPH, 1991, Harvard University
Tuesday, January 22, 2002 at 13:34:32 (PST)
"Is it possible that Asians excel at memorizing for standardized tests -- and not much else?"
Is it possible all the awards are rigged just like the Oscars (Harrison Ford is yet to win any), the US Foreign Service Exams and the BCS Bowl Rankings (which ended up screwing Oregon). After all other than the Federal Reserve Board, very few institutions in this country are based on merit.
Asian American Male
Tuesday, January 22, 2002 at 13:13:44 (PST)
"Is it possible that Asians excel at memorizing for standardized tests -- and not much else?"
Perhaps, but if one were to look at the IEEE website for fellows, one would find numerous Asian names in their lists. So what are whites good at? complaining whenever they get topped by an Asian American? seems that way in many universities, especially top public ones.
Kevin Yang
Tuesday, January 22, 2002 at 11:34:19 (PST)
Math guy,
Could it be possible not many asians are invited to take the putnam exam? Go you your college math department look at the math prof. all white. Look at the TA and RA, most Chinese immigrants. Hmm....
Being a theoretical math person in my past life. That exam is not offered to everyone nor are the test date published for everyone.
Coming from a pretty pretigious highschool with over 20% of the class attending ivy/elite (approx 140 kids a year), which never ranked the students, but would publish the high and low GPA, SAT, ACH scores for the university acceptance for the previous year class, so that the current class would have an idea where they would be accepted.
Consistently, in our highschool the top end of the acceptance was usually asian, and on the low end of the acceptance cut off was non-asian.
But then again the HS had over 40% asian at the time. Which further stregthens the argument that Asian were "over qualified" for admittance, when compared with the rest of the student body.
I even had asian friends at Exeter, who complained about the same thing.
Most Asian I know don't even care about Affirmative Action in College. We don't qualify for Affirmative Action. We are the over-reprensented minority in the college campus.
AC dropout
Tuesday, January 22, 2002 at 11:17:53 (PST)
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