ARE IVY DEGREES WORTH THE SACRIFICES

ending their kids to ivy league universities is the dream of every Asian American parent. Or so it seems. And there is no shortage of young AA willing to oblige. As of 2000, Asian Americans made up 12-19% of the undergrad enrollments of the top-20 ivies.
     No one questions the prestige associated with ivy degrees. In fact, sneer critics, that's the only thing bought with the extra money. And even that, they add, is wearing thin in a nation in which he cultural center of gravity has shifted to California.
     It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles. But the criticisms run deeper than return on investment. Some Asian Americans who have attended ivy league colleges have come away regretting their decisions for other reasons.
     Foremost is the sense that the ivies are structured for the benefit of legatees, the progeny of blueblooded alumni. Comprising upwards of 40% of some ivies, the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards. The result is that AA students with excellent credentials are the workhorses preserving the institutions' high academic reputations, thereby giving a free ride to undeserving legatees.
     Another common complaint is that the deck is stacked socially against Asian males in a system designed to preserve the princely status quo of the scions of WASP families. A disproportionate number of attractive AA females are admitted by the ivies, some have observed, while far fewer attractive AA males are admitted. This subtle bias, suspect critics, is implemented in the screening interviews used by most ivies.
     Then there's the Eurocentric worldview imposed by the courses. Not to mention the lousy weather, bland food and having to put up with locals hostile toward Asians. Contrast all this against the majority-ease lifestyles enjoyed by the AA in, say, the UC campuses.
     The bragging rights an ivy education affords parents, conclude critics, are far outweighed by the psychic and emotional sacrifices exacted from their kids.
     Does an ivy education provide rewards commensurate with the sacrifices? Or is it a trap for AA with overzealous parents with old-world views?

(Updated )

biaknabato,

Your comment of UCLA and Berkeley sending more people to grad schools might be valid if you could compare the percentage of the class sent in different areas. I am not sure, but I think UCLA and Berkeley are huge schools compared to Harvard or any other Ivy. Your comparison of numbers of people sent to grad school could be skewed based on school size difference. You also cannot really do any comparisons of Harvard and Berkeley engineering. Harvard does not really have much of an engineering program. Perhaps this was not a proper response since I sort of skimmed your comments..but oh well...
KM, 24
   Monday, January 28, 2002 at 10:28:40 (PST)
canadian chic: what happens when the people who have the guns stop protecting the people who don't? Jamaica. Rodney King riots. Nazi Germany.

Asian Dominatrix: they post up your exam results with your NAME attached to it? Crazy. At least in Hong Kong and Japan, they are only posted by ID number. At least Japanese universities, basically exam results are all that counts.

biaknabato: "I suspect or I believe that they graduate more students who scored above 1200 SAT than either Philips Andover or Philip Exeter."
Uh, relating to a lot of stuff you said: use percentages, not absolute numbers. Makes comparisons more meaningful.

"Ivyprep claims " students at prep schools study harder than public schools" . The best I can say about this remark is that it depends on the individual."
The difference is, at a prep school, even a sub-par individual will be influenced by his peer group to work hard.
T.H. Lien
   Sunday, January 27, 2002 at 22:36:02 (PST)
AC dropout

"In general our public school system is 'sink or swim'. You either leave the system being the genius that skips grades or graduate as an illiterate.
"

I have never thought on this aspect of the US educational system. My appreciation was based totally on the kind of education that is perhaps imparted in honors classes or so. Perhaps you are right in this regard.

The greatest irony about the Nobel peace prize is that one of the greatest messenger of non-violence, Gandhi never got it !!! The Noble prize Committee has expressed its regret several times regarding this. Apparently his name was considered several times by the committee but turned down due to stiff British resistence. By the time India got independence and British were no longer adamant, he died. In retrospection, it was a good thing. No Indian would want him to share the platform with the likes of Arafat (Nobel peace prize winner!!!). Nobel peace prize, at least, is completely politically motivated. A few other Nobel Laureates of India do come to my mind; Tagore for literature, S. Chandrashekhar, C.V. Raman, J.C. Bose,for physics, H. Khurana for biology, Amarya Sen for Economics etc.


Akash
   Sunday, January 27, 2002 at 16:32:06 (PST)
Dear Miss China

Oh dearie, of course I was talking about myself and my twin brother (who incidentally shares a copy of my genes) only. Actually the fact that both of us are extremely dull and uncreative people. Chinese, of course are the most creative people in the world blessed with superior analytical skills.

PS The people who are constantly busy in reforming themselves surge ahead. The ones who keep boasting stagnate. I wish the other Chinese are in the latter category.

In your service
Your humble servant

Akash
   Sunday, January 27, 2002 at 16:12:09 (PST)
canadian chic,

Look I have a lot of family in Canada. And I have the same discussion with them every year at the family reunion.

Canada is a good country, but it is only the 1/10 the population of the USA. In theory you would have to work 10x has hard to achieve the measure of sucess the USA has.

Bilingual? Who in the world is really bilingual in Canada. Only those in Quebec, Montreal the last time I checked. And even then it is divide by east and west montreal. There have been more than enough time where I been to Laval, PQ and had to use my past Bill 101 french education to get a glass of water in Canada.

Meeting a Canadian chic with perfect English and French accent is very rare.

I have cousins in Vancouver who are always lost in Montreal, because guess what...French education is a joke for the rest of the country.

Socialize medicine is only good if you are poor. It sucks if you have money. That's why rich Canadian come to the US for medical treatment.

But this isn't a forum for me to go off on Canada. It is good, clean, boring place. Yes prostition is legal in Canada to spice things up every now and then.
AC dropout
   Sunday, January 27, 2002 at 12:57:20 (PST)
Asian Dominatrix,

Bx Sci usually 98+% attend college. Because there is a wall dedicated every year to the seniors and what school they attend. All students get to see the ugly senior yearbook pictures and distribution.

For the most part it only show where people will be attending. So there is no idea where people were accepted to. But we send kids to all the top schools. All the ivies and the top 25 US News ranked will have about 10-30 going to them.

Because it is a city HS. There was no economic discrimiation in attending our HS. You are invited to take the City entrance exam based on your performance in the State standardized exams in JHS. You are admitted based solely on you performance in the City entrance exam for the 3 magnet HS and the cut off they set for the 3 HS. If someone could discriminate based on race and economic background with such an exam, you got me. So a lot of kids go to CUNY (City University NY) or SUNY (State Univ. of NY) system. Due cheaper tuition.

Having attended University in Beijing and Taipei. I also took the public entrance exam for college in Taiwan as a challenge for myself in Chinese literacy.

For the most part Asia is the direct opposite of USA for college. Majors are assigned to you based on the scores you got on the entrance exam and your sex. Public Univ. are more presitegous than Private Univ. Unless, you are working to get into oversea grad program or further acedemics or in a professional program (JD, MD), a majority of students are cruising to get their degreees. They will be hired by larger corporations just based on their brand name degrees. The logic is that they studied so hard to get in the University in the first place.

The situation in Asia is much different for entrance. In Taiwan for instance there is a standardized multiday exam for all the public universities. Private ones have their own exams. Oversea students are given a lower cut off to get in. Topic range for math, Science, Chinese history, English, Chinese literature/idioms, Logic. So if your test score makes the cut off there will be a limited amount of majors you can qualify for. Guys usually get Hard Science, Girls get Language and Literature. Because they can only allow about 10% of the HS graduating in Taiwan to attend the public university, those questions are extremely tough.

Being native english speaker looking at those English questions. I was like these don't make sense in English. But once you realise which obscure English grammer rule they were testing. And some are really obscure.

The sciences and math are usually at the USA 1-2 year college level. A command of calculus and maybe some Dif eq might be needed. The USA reverse answer strategy doesn't work well on these questions.

The Chinese history covers all 5000 years of recorded history. All names that famous Chinese people adopted in their lifetime should be known (Child name, school name, adult name, married name, professional name). All milestones in Chinese history should be known, not the fair tale version. No secret lover causing the fall of an empire interpretation of history, that is popular among Chinese.

Chinese language. A command of classical chinese will be needed. A command of modern Chinese will be needed. The stories behind all Chinese Idomatic Statement must be known.
AC dropout
   Sunday, January 27, 2002 at 12:42:47 (PST)

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