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ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
ARE IVY DEGREES WORTH THE SACRIFICES
ending their kids to ivy league universities is the dream of every Asian American parent. Or so it seems. And there is no shortage of young AA willing to oblige. As of 2000, Asian Americans made up 12-19% of the undergrad enrollments of the top-20 ivies.
No one questions the prestige associated with ivy degrees. In fact, sneer critics, that's the only thing bought with the extra money. And even that, they add, is wearing thin in a nation in which he cultural center of gravity has shifted to California.
It's true that investments in high ivy tuitions often don't show up in career earnings when compared with graduates of public universities of comparable student body profiles. But the criticisms run deeper than return on investment. Some Asian Americans who have attended ivy league colleges have come away regretting their decisions for other reasons.
Foremost is the sense that the ivies are structured for the benefit of legatees, the progeny of blueblooded alumni. Comprising upwards of 40% of some ivies, the legatees are often exempted from stringent admissions standards. The result is that AA students with excellent credentials are the workhorses preserving the institutions' high academic reputations, thereby giving a free ride to undeserving legatees.
Another common complaint is that the deck is stacked socially against Asian males in a system designed to preserve the princely status quo of the scions of WASP families. A disproportionate number of attractive AA females are admitted by the ivies, some have observed, while far fewer attractive AA males are admitted. This subtle bias, suspect critics, is implemented in the screening interviews used by most ivies.
Then there's the Eurocentric worldview imposed by the courses. Not to mention the lousy weather, bland food and having to put up with locals hostile toward Asians. Contrast all this against the majority-ease lifestyles enjoyed by the AA in, say, the UC campuses.
The bragging rights an ivy education affords parents, conclude critics, are far outweighed by the psychic and emotional sacrifices exacted from their kids.
Does an ivy education provide rewards commensurate with the sacrifices? Or is it a trap for AA with overzealous parents with old-world views?
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:01:00 PM)
"And in any event if you think they're fugly, just knock down a few more bottles of beer and they're start looking better."
I suppose that explains why a significant no. of academics become alcoholics:)
Asian Dominatrix
Friday, July 26, 2002 at 10:23:04 (PDT)
I turned down UPenn, MIT (not an ivy, but definitely an equivalent), and Cornell in order to attend a 7 year BA/MD combined program at Northwestern, referred to as the "Honors Program in Medical Education (HPME)."
This program's acceptance rate is far lower than Harvard's and those of other ivy institutions. Many of fellow students in this program have also turned down ivies, including the Harvards, Yales, and the Princetons.
Undoubtedly, the comforts of not having to apply to med schools and being exempt from the MCAT is... a blessing. And Northwestern clearly is an excellent school, ranked annually in the top 10-12 by US News and World Report with top 5 undergraduate programs in Engineering, Theater, Journalism, and Economics. Kellogg is often in the top 3 amongst MBA schools, while the Law and Medical schools both are ranked in the top 20.
However, Northwestern is referred to as the "Harvard (or Penn) of the Midwest," while Harvard or Penn would never be called the "Northwestern of the East." Plus, Northwestern is often seen as only a powerhouse in the REGION (namely, the Midwest), while the ivies are coveted by applicants worldwide.
Conclusion: Northwestern is no ivy. But there also are tens of thousands of ivy-accepted students nationwide who opt for a different school, for various reasons. For me, the reasons were the comforts of a guranteed med school acceptance and a chance to go outside of my comfort zone, namely the NY/NJ/Asian East Coast. My decision has been a good one.
Seung-Joo Lee, Northwestern '03
Friday, July 26, 2002 at 10:08:25 (PDT)
Ivy League Schools (Harvard, Yale, Brown) and Quasi-Ivy League Schools (Rice, Northwestern, Vanderbilt) have their advantages and disadvantages on many levels. You can't discount the prestiege of attending an Ivy league school--they open a lot of doors and command a certain amount of respect by association. At the same time, some Ivies don't give scholarships to anyone, even National Merit Finalists, and others have mixtures of highly intelligent individuals who lack in the social graces combined with blue-blood legacies who aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.
I had the opportunity to go into a buttload of debt to attend an Ivy League school (Brown) because of my grades, extracurricular activities and status as a National Merit Scholar. However, I decided that it made more sense financially to attend a state school (UT-Austin) with a combination of a full tuition scholarship, a few thousand dollars per semester from the National Merit Scholarship Foundation, a pell grant, an out of state tuition waiver from performing in the Men's Chorus, and working weekends at Bennigan's in order to pay for any extras the package didn't cover.
I know that I made the right decision because when I left UT, I was magna cum laude in Math and Economics and had no student loan debt. Graduating from UT with honors got me a graduate fellowship to Baylor for an MS in Statistics. I did have to take out a GSL to cover textbooks and a meal plan, but it wasn't very big.
After completing that Degree, I did one more Master's degree at Rice, which was on another fellowship and another small student loan as well.
When it was all said and done, I had three degrees--one from a state school, one from a second tier private school, and one from a quasi-ivy school and less than $8000 in student loan debt. After going to work as an investment banker, I found out that some of my fellows who had ivy league degrees owed over $50,000 in student loans and had exhorbitant monthly payments which left many of them driving their old cars from college and some living with their parents. I was living on my own, in a nice apartment, had bought a new car and was paying less money per month on my student loans than I was on my car payment.
It's been 10 years since I finished Grad school. I paid off my student loans within 4 years of graduating and have gone on to marriage, home ownership and fatherhood. Many of my old compatriots with the Ivy League degrees are STILL making payments on their student loans, despite how their income has increased over the past 10 years and despite getting married and so forth on down the line. The only debt my wife and I carry is one car note and our house note. All of our credit cards get paid in full each month and neither of us is paying off any student loans.
Yeah, my UT degree may not sound as impressive as an Ivy League degree, but I didn't go into a buttload of debt in order to get it either. After I started working, the degree only was an indication of what I studied in school and it all became about work experience. I guarantee you an investment banker with 10 years of solid work experience and a good track record with a degree from UT-Austin will be more likely to be hired and promoted than a Harvard Graduate with 10 years of experience that are less than stellar.
It's not the University, it's what you make of the degree you earn from it
Friday, July 26, 2002 at 08:25:55 (PDT)
"Asians are treated very poorly at UC schools. They survive only because there are so many Asians insulating them from the rest of the school. Many whites resent the fact that "their schools" are being overrun by Asians."
White People = Whine People. If there is AA= Affirmitive Action, grades should be the sole criteria, according to the whites, and if there are AA= Asian Americans, grades should not be the only criterion. It is not "their schools"...the whites are not in majority in California.
"Look at people clamoring to change the admission requirements at UC Schools."
The whining whites thought that the removal of Affirmitive Action would increase their numbers, but actually it led to a decrease in their numbers. So the whiners would try anything to get their numbers up and re-establish their privilege.
I know exactly how America would look without Affirmitive Action and people of Asian Ancestry...just look at Enron, World Com, Global Crossing and the Bush Administration's economics team...what a mess!!
"Isn't it a coincidence that every suggestion would hurt Asian Americans?"
Isn't it a coincidence that two out of three people given high marks for performance in the Bush team are minorities..Powell and Rice? and the best...Powell...may leave soon, instead of whining white (it is all someone else's fault) incompetents as Paul O'Neill or Harvey Pitt?
I C
Thursday, July 25, 2002 at 16:14:36 (PDT)
"Attending an Ivy is mostly a waste of time, unless you want to work all your life under some large corporation."
Actually none of the crooked CEOs went to Ivies...Lay went to Texas and Ebbers went to Mississippi College. The latter did not have an MBA which shows that who you know is more important than what you know as well as your ability to defraud people. America advises the world about transparency, but it is one of the most corrupt among the OECD countries...and the southern United States, particularly Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas and Mississippi would rank among the some of the worst Third World cuprits such as Pakistan, India and the Palestinian Authority.
South Asian
Thursday, July 25, 2002 at 16:04:19 (PDT)
"It is sad, because many of these Caucasians joined Finals Clubs (the exclusive male social clubs taht most Asians aren't allowed in) and as a result got the top Wall Street and consulting jobs over their more qualified Asian counterparts."
Why do you think Wall Street and Corporate America are in a mess today/
Exclusivity? Business incest? Which in turn begets fraud and corruption?
Sociologist
Thursday, July 25, 2002 at 15:57:50 (PDT)
Beautiful people on a college campus is like a Bell Curve scenario. The majority are okay, a minority is butt-ugly, and a minority are model material.
The problem with ivy is that they have a very small student population. They have a student body of the average highschool in Big City, USA.
So unless the prestigous school is in a large city you'll be shooting fish in a very small small barrel.
And in any event if you think they're fugly, just knock down a few more bottles of beer and they're start looking better. Anyway they all look the same in the dark...ivy or otherwise.
AC Dropout
Thursday, July 25, 2002 at 12:10:26 (PDT)
I went to Harvard and was appalled at the difference in quality between the Asian American men and the Caucasian men. Almost every Asian man I encountered had excelled in multiple extarcurricular activities (including sports, photography, and art, not just the stereotyped paino and violin), graduated the top of their high schools classes, and had top test scores. But I ran into a lot more ordinary Causian men even among the non-legatees. It is sad, because many of these Caucasians joined Finals Clubs (the exclusive male social clubs taht most Asians aren't allowed in) and as a result got the top Wall Street and consulting jobs over their more qualified Asian counterparts. I don't think it is a coincidence that many Asians find this so frsutarting that they eventually are forced to either enter a technical field or start their own companies.
Former Cantab
Thursday, July 25, 2002 at 07:02:19 (PDT)
MLK
i go to a state school. and if you read the white female + asian male forum you would know i already have the best looking girl ever!!!
SOG
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 at 23:53:16 (PDT)
My father was accepted into 2 of the IVYs for grad school. (He only applied to a few)But...he decided to go to another good University instead... that was not as prestigious...but they ranked high enough academically and they offered him a really good fellowship package...
I personally feel that he made a good choice...
What messed things up was not the fact that he gave up the 2 IVY schools...it was because the majors that he would have gone for at those two schools would have been alot more promising than the major that he completed at the less prestigious University...
So...my father is really an example of how what you study is in a sense more important than where you study...
Larrii Kong....
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 at 15:02:28 (PDT)
SOG
If you want pretty girls at school, go to a state university. They are a dime-a-dozen there.
MLK
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 at 11:07:16 (PDT)
Attending an Ivy is mostly a waste of time, unless you want to work all your life under some large corporation. Otherwise, just go to a decent State school.
BTW, I am an Ivy grad.
a KA's view
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 at 22:12:06 (PDT)
Asians are treated very poorly at UC schools. They survive only because there are so many Asians insulating them from the rest of the school. Many whites resent the fact that "their schools" are being overrun by Asians. Look at people clamoring to change the admission requirements at UC Schools. Isn't it a coincidence that every suggestion would hurt Asian Americans?
UC They C We All C
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 at 18:10:09 (PDT)
ivy girls are FUGLY, even the Asian ones.
Class of 2003
Monday, July 22, 2002 at 20:38:41 (PDT)
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