but being seen as an equal no matter what culture you are in a marriage, is something that is a priority.
Hannah
Monday, March 11, 2002 at 09:46:29 (PST)
proud to be asian
your right, you are hong kongese, all you hong kong people think that your the centre of the world, how about the inlaws ask about hannahs life and learn better english and how to eat with a fork. She dosent HAVE to learn chinese and she dosent HAVE to eat with chopsticks, i find her story very annoying in the fact that i feel she is being treated like shit. Hannah you need to stand up to your inlaws and take a strong stance with your husband on this matter. maybe even show him this site and make him see that his parents are treating you like dirt. If you MIL puts and does the silent treatment then let her, shes just wants you to go crawling back to her. make her feel that shes not needed therefore it will burst her bubble. If she trys to feed the baby with herbs and tiger dick or whatever you need to say, HEY! i told you to get that crap out of MY babys face! this is MY baby and I will look after him! I think your husband is a little at fault here, i know these hong kong people blood is definately thicker than water for them, which means if he had to pick between mummy who brought him into this world and worked so hard so he could get a good education, between wifey, i think hell say bye bye wifey or hell say put up and shut up. Tell your husband your unhappy, my prediction is that your marriage will end in seperation if this continues. You need to move to a different state from your MIL. dont do things just to please them or else theyll look at you like a brown nosed slave.
HOKKIEN
Saturday, March 09, 2002 at 09:17:46 (PST)
Hannah,
I am so sorry to hear about the poor treatment you have received at the hands of your inlaws. I am not surprised at the description of life with your in laws. Some Chinese people are bigoted, stupid, and extremely prejudice. My parents are Hong Kong chinese and I know how some of them can be.
I only hope that you experience with you in laws has not affected your views of Chinese people. I also hope that you marriage is alright. Your experiences must have cause some strain between you two.
I sincerely hope life is better in your own home.
forge23
Monday, February 11, 2002 at 14:27:45 (PST)
FOP, you are correct, this is about Hannah's story. I tried to be polite about my replies but I can see it is futile. Replying to Shanghainese's comments is like talking to a wall. This person is the Chinese equivalent of the KKK.
Anyways, Hannah, applause to you for making efforts to learn about your husband's family and culture. I'm sorry it was not reciprocated and that is the rudest part of it all. I am a bit puzzled as to why your husband did not intervene on your behalf. His family may mean a lot to him but he needs to have loyalty to his wife as well!
Good luck with your now independant household!
Slider, Chinese American male
Wednesday, February 06, 2002 at 17:20:22 (PST)
We should not be debating about 'Shanghainese'. This forum belongs to Hannah. Let's ignore Shanghainese. Hannah, one last tip from me. Don't let your in-laws interfere your upbringing of your child. Take advice from them, but don't let them meddle with it.
FOP (A HK Born Chinese)
Tuesday, February 05, 2002 at 09:22:03 (PST)
Shanghainese
Sigh, When do Chinese people learn the lesson of intra-racial harmony among themselves? Sure, elegant Mandarin in refined Shanghainese dialect, huh? You probably don't know how the Beijingese laugh at that stupid 'elegant' accent of yours.
FOP (A HK Born Chinese)
Tuesday, February 05, 2002 at 09:06:50 (PST)
Stereotypes of Shanghainese are that we are arrogant. Maybe so. But it is only because we have a right to be. We represent the best that China has to offer, we are one of the most sophisticated, sharpest, talented people not only in China, but the world. The next twenty years will see Shanghai shine to become a city that will rival New York or London, forget Tokyo, that's old news. The Japanese can't beat us Shanghainese. Shanghai will again be the center of Asia. Even the Yangzi delta region has always been the most refined and educated. The cities of Nanjing, Hangzhou, Suzhou produced the best literary figures and artists.
Anyways, the reason I have much disdain for the Cantonese was because when I was growing up in America amongst Cantonese, I was often picked on because I was from mainland China. At the time, mainland China was just opening up, and was still much poorer than HK, so they often belitted us mainlanders. But when I compare their habits and culture, it was obviously far INFERIOR to our culture. The Cantonese are not very sophisticated and when they have money like some HK people, they are like newly rich white trash. They don't know how to act or live like educated, refined people. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen rich HK people act like rude, uneducated trash in public, it is embarassing I tell you! And this is the best that that has been city HK has to offer?
To the guy from Luoyang. The reason why Shanghai was poor was because of those Communist policies that drained our region. You see, us Shanghainese have never really liked the Communist policies, and it doesn't suit our flamboyant, entrepreneurial and success-oriented culture. Most of the Communists were from backwaters in central or Northern China. Communism fits the Northern Chinese, who although are taller and bigger, are not very smart, or even sharp. In fact, Communism suited Northern China because the people are not very entreprenurial and are simple minded. But at least they are not loud and annoyingly noisy like the Cantonese, who combined with their small stature and unattractive aborigine-like facial features are like little chihuahuas screaming about. But Northerners are good at being told what to do, how much to do, and when to stop, like big cattle or farm animals. Must be too much of that barbarian blood in them.
Go ahead, hate us Shanghainese, but it's only because you know we're the best and are jealous. I don't even want to imagine what China would be like without us.
Shanghainese
Monday, February 04, 2002 at 21:58:29 (PST)
shanghainese if a cantonese restaurant is so bad why don't you go to a shanghainese restaurant in china .By the way your shanghainese food taste like taste like crap. This guy probably been in america for five years while the cantonese and the toison chinese has been here 150 years plus.
player hater with kobe II
Monday, February 04, 2002 at 11:30:20 (PST)
Hi, This is Hannah, that was my original posting. I appreciate the advice, replies, and the fact that my letter opened up alot of conversation . I would like to clarify that I do take Chinese , I have taken Mandarin classes [speak and understand only very basic things] and even went as far as paying a Chinese high school student to tutor me in Cantonese. I could no longer afford that, so I now have a Cantonese CD Rom I use and compare notes with my husband. I also know how to use chopsticks, and enjoy it at times, but from the beginning, have been actually told I need to use them, even though my culture is to use the fork. The problem is my culture was never considered and I was never gven a choice in the matter.
As far as one readers comment on my work status. I am a fulltime mother [a very underated position] besides being a professional artist, who has worked and supported myself in this field through college inot my career years. I do not see putting down any sort of job. Being an artist is just as important to me as being a business man is to my husband.
As far as living with the in-laws, it is not out of necessity finacially. They said that if we are going to pay rent someplace, they might as well be getting the money. The only way out of that nightmare is that we bought a house [alhtough they insisted on going with my husband and picking it out without me].
I show interest in my husbands culture continuously. I can tell you my in-laws full names, their Chinese names, their childhood stories, how they met and married,what my father- in -law did in Hong Kong as a job, their best friends names, when Chinese New Years is, etc. etc. I know this because I pursue them and ask. They have never asked me anything about me nor my culture.
I think that is what makes me feel the saddest. Because I want our little boy to embrace both cultures, and not be made to feel inferior by being part white also.
Hannah Lee
jadegirl28@starpower.net
Monday, February 04, 2002 at 06:00:06 (PST)
The comments about the differences in northern and southern Chinese culture based on restaurants is inaccurate. The reason being is that it depends more on the class of restaurant you are at. Upscale restaurants will have polite, courteous, and refined service because you pay for it. Lower class restaurants may be loud, boisterous, and with less than refined staff members. It all depends where you go and what you pay for. You'll find that in ANY culture you encounter. This was an improper example for Shanghainese to use.
We can sit here and debate on whether Cantonese or Mandarin sounds better, or which sounds vulgar, etc until doomsday. It's futile. They are separate languages. End of story. Who's to say which language sounds better? There isn't an answer, only opinions! Heck, we share the same written language. And thank God for that, otherwise I don't know how all the dialects in China would manage.
As for whether or not Cantonese are Chinese or not, yes they are. They just speak a different dialect. Just because someone speaks a separate dialect, they are not supposed to be included in the nationality? Doesn't work that way. For exmaple, look at all the dialects of Arabic. Despite that, most of them would identify themselves as an Arab.
Slider, Chinese-American male
Monday, February 04, 2002 at 01:31:37 (PST)
Shanghai pengyou,
It is attitudes like yours and other Mandarin speakers that makes the people of Taiwan clamour for independence. Why does being Chinese have to only fit your definition of only being able to speak Mandarin?
Also, the Cantonese people in America sometimes have stuckup attitudes of their own. Many of them are born here, 2 or 3 generations. Some of them do not or refuse to associate with FOBs of their own group, not to mention other dialect groups.
Taiwanese
Sunday, February 03, 2002 at 21:08:24 (PST)
Hannah,
I understand where you are coming from. I am a 3rd generation Chinese American guy married also to an Anglo. Frankly, I envy you. Not that your in-laws treat you bad or anything, but because you have continuing contact and interaction with them. Trust me, the better days are ahead for both of you. Just give it some time and understanding.
In me and my wife's case, we have not been able to see or speak to her parents since we were together. Not after 13 years of marriage and 2 kids. Yes, she got disowned by her parents for marrying me, a Chinese Asian man. I have always encouraged my wife to pick the phone or write letters to her parents, but she has told me that she knows who her true love is. I couldn't be more happier. Yet, I still foresee and pray for the day she will patch things up with her parents.
Needless to say, I have no hate for them. My wife gets along fine with my folks and she considers them to now be her
"real parents." My parents understands her dilemma and have been very supportive and accomodating to her every needs.
Life is too short to be hating. My 2 little kids have yet to see or find out who their other 2 grandparents are. The day will come someday for them to know the truth. But, now it is just so painfully hard to break the truth to them at so young an age.
Please know that family is the essence of our life and existence. Now matter how bad or how hard, it is still family that counts and matters.
Thomas Woo
Sunday, February 03, 2002 at 19:05:43 (PST)
shanghainese:
sounds like you haven't been able to afford going to the classier cantonese restaurants. i'm not sure about the shanghainese population here in the u.s., but the cantonese population is pretty socioeconomically diverse. there will be those that are poor and live by perhaps different social norms than you. nonetheless, your act of labelling them as 'uneducated' hardly makes you a classy one.
btw, about 90% of the cantonese population here speaks mandarin as well. this is also true for the cantonese in hong kong. where are you getting your facts?
penelope
Sunday, February 03, 2002 at 18:12:29 (PST)
Shanghainese,
I didn't wanted to respond to you because your type of talk is typical of people from your region. I am from Luoyang (in Henan) and was once a police officer in Beijing. I was forced to move to Shanghai during the Mao's purges. I thought I would be in China's most developed cities. Little did I know that I was living amongst the most conniving, fake, materialist, untrustworthy peoples in all of China. Just thinking of all the thieves I met in Nanjing Jie and Huangbao Jiang, too many to count. The people there are dirt poor, but think they are living rich.
Later, I was reinstated and moved with my family in Henan to Guangzhou. At first I had stereotypes of Guangdongren (Canton people) too. I assume they did of the laosungtao (northerners) too. Later I picked up their dialect. I spoke with an accent, and I am sure Guangdong people might have considered my Cantonese speech vulgar and rude too, but not only did they not feel disdain but they actually accepted me more as one of them as I spoke to them in Guangdonghua. Sometimes, if my Cantonese was so bad that they would switch to Mandarin to accomodate me. In Shanghai, I also learned the local language (which is different from Mandarin). But, those people of Shanghai would just ridicule me and say I was a bumpkin from the outer provinces. No matter, how acculturated you are in Shanghai, if you are an outsider, you are always an outsider. I heard people tell me that they even treat rich businessmen from Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore in the same manner. Pity these people.
Later I went to Hong Kong and met some of these same Shanghainese. They would go to Hong Kong and bespeak their jealousies. They would say that the weather is too horrid, that buildings in Hong Kong could match the elegance of European styles in Shanghai. I think buildings in Hong Kong is much modern looking compared to the older, drabby ones in Shanghai. Shanghainese migrants in Hong Kong would also comment that Hong Kongers do not know how to live like people in a rich, modern metropolis would. Of all the different regional Chinese migrants in Hong Kong I met, the Shanghai ones were the only ones who refused to fully acculturate and adopt Guangdong dialect.
You have to understand that to understand a people, you should first understand their language. Canton people are not fake, but easily excitable. Of course, you cannot communicate with the waiters if you do not speak their language. I heard Cantonese friends tell me that they felt uneasy eating in a Shanghai restaurant because of cool treatment.
I am a native Mandarin speaker, and think Cantonese is worthy of respect simply because it is older. If you try to read Tang Dynasty poet Li Bai's poem in Mandarin, it is impossible and not as smooth. In Cantonese, they read it as if it was a song and you hear it coming out from their hearts. So, if you say they are vulgar, they counter that we are just as vulgar for speaking a non-Tang language.
All the Chinese north of Shanghai do not have good feelings for Shanghainese either simply because of their arrogance and fakeness.
Henanren
Sunday, February 03, 2002 at 17:18:12 (PST)
shanghainese has to take his F.O.B. ass back china.As for cantonese people being rude and uneducated I graduated magna cum lauda.I hate it when chinese people hate chinese people but I still have love for you brother no matter how much you hate cantonese chinese.
eat this
Saturday, February 02, 2002 at 10:12:39 (PST)
marrying a person of a different ethnicity can be similar to marrying one of a different religion. if your husband were catholic and you were not and his in-laws treated you as inferior because of this, i would hardly call it disrespectful. they definitely wouldn't be the most tolerant of people, but it still would be understandable.
cantonese people can be really superstitious. when your mother-in-law wants something her way, it's probably because she truly believes in her heart that it's for the best, and not because she's trying to spite you or is inconsiderate.
still, i have to give you props for eating the pig's feet =) that stuff is yummy, though.
i know that it can be difficult, and you may have experienced culture shock...but you may want to give chinese culture a chance. have fun with it...don't feel too self-conscious. elderly cantonese people can be very wary of strangers at first, but once they grow to trust you, they're the warm people. you'll see.
penelope
Friday, February 01, 2002 at 17:23:52 (PST)
I knew I would offend some people with my comments, but both of us know there is definitely some truth to what I am saying. You can simply see the difference when going to a Cantonese restaurant and a Shanghainese restaurant. In the cant. one, the waitors are screaming over your head to each other in noisy, rude cantonese. They don't interact with you, just throw some dishes in your face.
Not so with Shanghainese, we are a refined and educated people. The waitors and manager is often around. You can chat cordially with them, remark on the dishes, and fromt eh decor, you can see they have put much time and effort in presenting an elegant environment. Plus, the Shanghainese dialect, and mandarin is much more pleasant than the vulgar cantonese language.
Anyways, how can I really expect to feel that the Cantonese are similarly Chinese to me when most cannot even speak mandarin! This is pretty ridiculous, and even the ones that can communicate in Mandarin do so with a unpleasant and vulgar accent.
Shanghainese
Friday, February 01, 2002 at 16:00:22 (PST)
Hello Hannah,
Much of what you have experienced isn't due to your race. My wife is Chinese and she has gone through similar ordeals with my mother.
Your story caught my attention because my wife is also a vegetarian. However, I am quite different from your husband in that I fully support her vegetarianism. In fact, I will allow no meat of any sort in our household. Not only can my wife eat the way she wants, but also she doesn't have to put up with the smell of various kinds of meat, nor does she have to handle meat in any way. If I want to have meat, I'll just eat at some restaurant by myself. It's really not a problem for me, and it's what I want to do for my wife out of love.
I apply the same consideration in protecting her from my mother's domination. If she wants to do something in a certain way and my mother disagrees, my wife will tell her it's my idea, and I will back her up. That's usually the end of the argument.
The man in such a relationship has to be a real man, and he must establish this from the very beginning. For instance, my mother wanted to interfere with our wedding plans too, but I stood firm. I even ended up doing most of the planning myself. It was the same with house-hunting. My mother wanted to meddle, and again I had to stop her. It wasn't easy to toe the line, but I learned that it was possible to be firm in my own (and my wife's) preferences and yet still be a good, loving son.
I've found that consideration goes both ways. Prior to my marriage, I had a White girlfriend and we were considering matrimony pretty seriously. Even though it didn't work out in the end, when we were together I appreciated the fact that she learned simple Chinese phrases in order to communicate with my parents better.
To White females who may be reading this: Please be aware that different Asian guys will handle the same in-law problem differently. I believe it's important for your man to stand up for you and be strong for you, and this is something you definitely want to establish before a lifelong committment. In the long run, my approach actually promotes overall harmony and happiness for everyone. If you are contemplating matrimony, it may help for you to share my experience with your significant other. Good luck.
Ideal Asian Husband (yep, that's me)
Friday, February 01, 2002 at 09:51:56 (PST)
Shanghainese, lets not go there and start polluting that you been Shanghainese is good and others been Cantonese is bad.
Not all Cantonese are rude, insulated and very uneducated. This world got enough problems and dont need more. Are you not Chinese?
Back to Hannah. I may know why your in-laws act that way. They felt since you dont know enough about Cantonese history to pass it to your son.
I am Hong Kongnese too. So please dont think all Hong Kongnese are like your husband. You do need to do learn Cantonese, eat with a chopstick, and learn a little Cantonese cooking. Go online and find Cantonese recipes or buy "Yan Can Cook", a Cantonese Cookbook in English by Martin Yan.
I didnt hear your story about how your parents and family members treat your husband. So I hope they like him.
We(speaking only about my family) like the non-asian friends to know our Chinese histories and stories. So ask your in-laws about their young life, like how they met and how was their life and what they missed from Hong Kong.
I feel ashamed that your husband didnt chooses to stand behind me. I know I would talk and stand behind my wife. I would make my parents understand.
So learn Cantonese by asking how to say this and that. Buy a learning tape in Chinatown or something. It will be the hardest thing to learn. I am talking about learning a Cantonese. It would make your in-laws happy and you happy because you can go to Chinatown and surprise everyone you can speak Chinese. You will begin to understand and join the conversation. There is nothing wrong if they choose to speak Chinese but it is wrong when they did it in front of you.
Learn a few cusses too so you can speak your mind when you are angry.
A good life is hard to achieve but it is what keeps your life interesting.
Proud to be an Asian male.
Thursday, January 31, 2002 at 21:16:59 (PST)
Hannah, first off I want to say how disappointed I am that your in-laws label you disrespectful when they are being hypocrites and being disrespectful to you.
I've seen these cases many times spanning many cultures: Irish/Italian, East Asian/White, Black/White, Persian/White, and the list goes on. If they are so "respectful" how can they justify treating you like that?. I'm assuming you made efforts to learn your husband's culture and it was inconsiderate of them to ignore yours. Marraige makes changes, that's a given!
In response to someone's earlier comment, I have met plenty of rude, inconsiderate, and ill-tempered northern AND southern Chinese. And many who are not. It depends more upon how they were raised and obviously, Hannah's in-laws were raised by tools. Northern and southern Chinese, in general, seem to get their rocks off saying they're better than the other.
At least now in your own household, your husband can now turn the tables on his "traditional" parents and threaten not to take care of them in their old age if they do not respect you.
Slider, Chinese American male
Thursday, January 31, 2002 at 18:25:18 (PST)
Shanghainese
Ah, calling yourself Shanghainese
instead of Chinese. Who is imposing 'insulation' on himself? That surely sounds very 'educated'.
FOP (A HK Born Chinese)
Thursday, January 31, 2002 at 12:43:23 (PST)
Hannah,
it's too bad that your in-laws are so close-minded and rude to you. i'm sure you realize that they certainly do NOT represent the majority of Chinese families. of course when you marry someone, especially someone of another ethnic culture, you inevitably give up a little of yourself to absorb and understand your partner. this assimilation should work both ways, naturally. Chinese in-laws, unfortunately, can be particularly domineering (from the husband's side). i'm sorry u had to run into one of those families. good luck with the new home!
as far as an earlier comment by one of the readers, i'm disappointed that he would target Cantonese people and label us as "quite rude, insulated and very uneducated." i won't stoop to your level and bash fellow countrymen.
Joono
Thursday, January 31, 2002 at 10:23:59 (PST)
Sister,
I hate to be rude, but sounds to me like you need to learn some Chinese and learn how to use chopsticks.
The two of you need to work on finding your own home so you can develop a better marriage and get the in-laws out of your freakin' business. This business about your husband's parents disowning him when he sides with you is bullshit. What? Is he suppose to side with them and leave you in the cold? I don't think so. In fact, we're not havin' it!
Having said this, I do think it's pretty rude for the three of them to speak Chinese most of the time when you're at the table even though they know English. That's selfish, inconsiderate and inhospitable. Don't know who raised them, but they need some lessons in etiquette.
Just be glad you love your husband and he loves you. Remember, no one can stop true love. Not even parents.
Not to offend you, but you need to go look for a real job. Being an artist is a good hobby, but you need employment - a real paycheck. If the two of you are pulling in moderate incomes, you can get some space for yourselves and nurture your relationship.
That is all.
Geoff DB
GeoffDB02@aol.com
Wednesday, January 30, 2002 at 20:59:02 (PST)
Hannah,
All I can say is put this ordeal behind you and look forward to the new life with your family in your new home.
On the other hand, I wonder what the life is like for those Asian women who are married to White men. Have they ever faced the same ordeal as you did? How willing were they when they were made to give up their Asian culture?
FOP
Wednesday, January 30, 2002 at 17:58:22 (PST)
Comment to White Wife's Ordeal with Chinese In-Laws
You did the right thing, MOVE OUT! I think in-laws of ANY race can only be taken in small doses. Of course an inter-cultural relationship is FAR worse. But stick it through. I'm sure your husband understands what you go through and will try his best to reason with his parents. Heck, I do that too, though sometimes, I do admit they are beyond reasoning. Good for you for standing by your husband however.
Thanks,
Kevin Yang
Wednesday, January 30, 2002 at 12:50:13 (PST)
I am sorry you have to live like this. It seems that your in-laws are not very educated or tolerant at all. I am Shanghainese, and it seems to me that many Cantonese I have met are quite rude, insulated and very uneducated.
I also have a white american wife, but she is welcomed to our home. My family treats her well, and they get along great. She often contributes American dishes to our meals, and is often asked of her opinion. She thinks the highest of my family, and constantly remarks how polite, open-minded and educated they are. I am so sorry that your in-laws are not the same.
Shanghainese
Wednesday, January 30, 2002 at 11:20:31 (PST)
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