Some people are proud of their culture. Good for them. However, some people are supremacists. Where do you draw the line? Could you give some examples?
Pride:
Someone who respectfully acknowledges his heritage, who is not ashamed of himself. Someone who makes an effort to learn more about his culture, and celebrates it.
Supremacy:
A KKK member, who raises himself up only by putting others down.
Full Version: Supremacy Vs. Pride
chuchu:
Yup, I agree.
We need to get rid of ignorant supremacist (mostly the white-aryan groups) who are detrimental to the well-being of the minority groups living in the US.
After 9-11, I have seen an "upsurge" of KKK members holding meetings denouncing minorities,...especially those with middle-eastern backgrounds.
It really is sad.
Yup, I agree.
We need to get rid of ignorant supremacist (mostly the white-aryan groups) who are detrimental to the well-being of the minority groups living in the US.
After 9-11, I have seen an "upsurge" of KKK members holding meetings denouncing minorities,...especially those with middle-eastern backgrounds.
It really is sad.
It's horrid! The first things that I posted (on national and international boards) was that I'd hoped that we'd learned our lesson from WWII and would not do to the (as I call them) "non-European Caucasians" when we'd done to the Japanese Americans (under Exec. Order 9066).
No sooner did the words leave my keyboard, then the Powers That Be started setting up Homeland Security and making Middle Eastern and South Asian people "register" with them.
Even THAT wouldn't have been so bad, but private citizens have been taking it upon themselves to attack other private citizens, strictly on the basis of their ethnicity. Just a couple of miles from where I live, a Hindu family from India had a fire bomb thrown through their living room window, and their baby was injured. (Obviously, the idiots who did that were a bunch of ignoramuses; but even if the family had been Muslims from Pakistan, it would have been equally inexcusable.)
This kind of garbage makes me ashamed to be a more-or-less-White person. (I say "more or less", because, to those KKK types, I'm just as much a "mud person" as anyone here, because I'm only partly European.)
No sooner did the words leave my keyboard, then the Powers That Be started setting up Homeland Security and making Middle Eastern and South Asian people "register" with them.
Even THAT wouldn't have been so bad, but private citizens have been taking it upon themselves to attack other private citizens, strictly on the basis of their ethnicity. Just a couple of miles from where I live, a Hindu family from India had a fire bomb thrown through their living room window, and their baby was injured. (Obviously, the idiots who did that were a bunch of ignoramuses; but even if the family had been Muslims from Pakistan, it would have been equally inexcusable.)
This kind of garbage makes me ashamed to be a more-or-less-White person. (I say "more or less", because, to those KKK types, I'm just as much a "mud person" as anyone here, because I'm only partly European.)
Since the war with Iraq began I too have read many horrible stories of gangs of white youths beating Arab-Americans to near death. Often they aren't Arab, but as long as they look Arab I suppose it's close enough for them.
However, I am proud of who I am and I am proud of my cultural background. It almost seems like a crime nowadays to say that you are proud of being white, because of all the evils that whites have perpetrated over the years, but I refuse to be ashamed of who I am.
There is a perfectly normal amount of self-respect and pride in one's roots that everyone should have. However when you start claiming that your roots or ethnicity or race or culture is better than others, then you have crossed the line into supremacy.
However, I am proud of who I am and I am proud of my cultural background. It almost seems like a crime nowadays to say that you are proud of being white, because of all the evils that whites have perpetrated over the years, but I refuse to be ashamed of who I am.
There is a perfectly normal amount of self-respect and pride in one's roots that everyone should have. However when you start claiming that your roots or ethnicity or race or culture is better than others, then you have crossed the line into supremacy.
People are always quick to mention the KKK and other notorious white supremacist groups, but I just wanted to point out that supremacy also exists within the Asian American community today.
There's a smattering of "Azn pride" gangs across the U.S., their cohesiveness relying heavily on common phenotypic characteristics rather than any substantial common cultural identification. I understand that many, if not all, of these Asian gangs formed out of a desire to combat the racial discrimination that many of their members probably faced, but I must lament their methods of going about it (usually violence), and the rhetoric they use to justify those actions: Azn Pride, a.k.a. Asian Supremacy.
I think the main reason behind this phenomenon is the fact that many are largely ignorant of their own cultural/ethnic heritage, so the only way to create ethnic bonds seems to be along the lines of superfical commonalities based mainly on appearance. I guess that it's good that in trying to unify into culturally-identifiable groups, these Asian American youth are actively fighting overassimilation, i.e. rejecting their cultural heritages, but I wish that they were able to figure out what those cultural heritages actually *are*. If only there were legitimate and well-established cultural organizations out there that all of us Asian Americans, but especially our underguided youth, could turn to to be more informed of the "Asian part" of themselves.....
There's a smattering of "Azn pride" gangs across the U.S., their cohesiveness relying heavily on common phenotypic characteristics rather than any substantial common cultural identification. I understand that many, if not all, of these Asian gangs formed out of a desire to combat the racial discrimination that many of their members probably faced, but I must lament their methods of going about it (usually violence), and the rhetoric they use to justify those actions: Azn Pride, a.k.a. Asian Supremacy.
I think the main reason behind this phenomenon is the fact that many are largely ignorant of their own cultural/ethnic heritage, so the only way to create ethnic bonds seems to be along the lines of superfical commonalities based mainly on appearance. I guess that it's good that in trying to unify into culturally-identifiable groups, these Asian American youth are actively fighting overassimilation, i.e. rejecting their cultural heritages, but I wish that they were able to figure out what those cultural heritages actually *are*. If only there were legitimate and well-established cultural organizations out there that all of us Asian Americans, but especially our underguided youth, could turn to to be more informed of the "Asian part" of themselves.....
Pride: acknowledging your heritage and making no reservations about being from it, freely expressing the connection you have with others of your heritage.
Supremacy: Pawning off the accomplishments of others who simply look like you as your own - just because your culture or ethnicity has accomplished much, it is not YOUR OWN achievement, so unless you personally had a hand in it, you should not thump your chest about it.
Case in point - many of the KKK-type folks point at the pre-eminince of European culture through out the world in the last 500 years or so. They point at Europeans having made the most significant recent discoveries in science, medicine, engineering, etc. However, most of these supremacists are usually trailer-trash who haven't accomplished so much as a GED in their own lives, so they point to the accomplishments of others that happen to look like them.
Supremacy: Pawning off the accomplishments of others who simply look like you as your own - just because your culture or ethnicity has accomplished much, it is not YOUR OWN achievement, so unless you personally had a hand in it, you should not thump your chest about it.
Case in point - many of the KKK-type folks point at the pre-eminince of European culture through out the world in the last 500 years or so. They point at Europeans having made the most significant recent discoveries in science, medicine, engineering, etc. However, most of these supremacists are usually trailer-trash who haven't accomplished so much as a GED in their own lives, so they point to the accomplishments of others that happen to look like them.
My, my, my! Some of you are so quick to mention the KKK and Aryan Nation, but seem to ignore hate groups like the Black Panthers, Nubian Nation, and Asian Dawn. Now, I don't like the KKK and don't subscribe to their viewpoint, but if you want to talk about bigotry and Supremacy here, there is enough blame to go around.
For example:
Some (NOT ALL) Jewish people so fear assimilation that many will act openly hateful and rude to Catholics and WASPs in New York City and Baltimore. Those individuals will throw out slurs like shiksa and goy at us with impunity and when they are called on their anti-Gentile bigotry, they hide behind the Holocaust.
Some (NOT ALL) Asian American students walk around various high school and college campuses with the attitude that they are smarter than everyone else, that their fecal materials don't stink and that all Caucasians are fat, hairy, ugly, etc. etc. etc. They'll throw out slurs like Gaijin, Gwailau, and Cracker at poor Whites and think that every Caucasian is some kind of a white hood wearing, cross burning Redneck. If you confront those individuals on their racism, they say it's justified because of General Order 9066 in World War II and because they've been the victims of racism from other White folks.
In today's PC society, if I were to say that I have PRIDE in my European heritage from Sweden and Scotland, I'd be called a racist and a White Supremacist for saying such things. How does my having pride in my Swedish and Scotts heritage equate to burning crosses on the lawn of an African American family or slaughtering Jews in gas Chambers? Last I checked, Sweden was invaded by the Nazis and Scotland, along with the rest of the British isles were bombed by them. Plus, I wasn't even alive when those events happened. I and other Caucasians are not reponsible for those actions any more than Japanese Americans are responsible for Pearl Harbor, or Arab Americans are responsible for the events of September 11, 2001.
Some so-called "Ethnic Pride" people need to take a long, hard look at themselves before pointing their fingers at some Caucasian they just met who hasn't done anything to them. If I slur you, if I attack you, if I show you hateful, racist behavior, then you have a reason to hate ME, but not hate all the rest of my people.
As for the "smart" Asian kids who love to mock their "dumb" White peers, why don't you use the abilities God gave you and you developed to maybe help END their ignorance and stupidity by helping as a peer counselor or tutor. You can't do anything about what's happened before, but by not helping your fellow man because of his or her skin color, you are just as guilty of allowing ignorance to continue.
And for those of you who like to hide behind the "Model Minority" label, I can tell you from my own experience that not all Asian American kids are smart or are good in school. I spend a good deal of time tutoring several Asian kids in Math when I was in high school, college and graduate school who had really poor Math skills. I currently teach Economics part time in the evenings, and every semester I have Asian students in my class of greatly varying math and academic skills. Some are very good students with awesome skills--some are dumb as a box of hammers. Sorry to burst your bubble, but European Americans don't hold a monopoly on stupidity and poor study habits.
This is not meant to make light of racism that Asian Americans, Jews, etc. have experienced. This is meant to illustrate that Asian Americans and Jews have members of their groups who are just as bigoted as some members of my ethnicity can be. No matter how you slice it, bigotry sucks and it holds us back as a nation.
For example:
Some (NOT ALL) Jewish people so fear assimilation that many will act openly hateful and rude to Catholics and WASPs in New York City and Baltimore. Those individuals will throw out slurs like shiksa and goy at us with impunity and when they are called on their anti-Gentile bigotry, they hide behind the Holocaust.
Some (NOT ALL) Asian American students walk around various high school and college campuses with the attitude that they are smarter than everyone else, that their fecal materials don't stink and that all Caucasians are fat, hairy, ugly, etc. etc. etc. They'll throw out slurs like Gaijin, Gwailau, and Cracker at poor Whites and think that every Caucasian is some kind of a white hood wearing, cross burning Redneck. If you confront those individuals on their racism, they say it's justified because of General Order 9066 in World War II and because they've been the victims of racism from other White folks.
In today's PC society, if I were to say that I have PRIDE in my European heritage from Sweden and Scotland, I'd be called a racist and a White Supremacist for saying such things. How does my having pride in my Swedish and Scotts heritage equate to burning crosses on the lawn of an African American family or slaughtering Jews in gas Chambers? Last I checked, Sweden was invaded by the Nazis and Scotland, along with the rest of the British isles were bombed by them. Plus, I wasn't even alive when those events happened. I and other Caucasians are not reponsible for those actions any more than Japanese Americans are responsible for Pearl Harbor, or Arab Americans are responsible for the events of September 11, 2001.
Some so-called "Ethnic Pride" people need to take a long, hard look at themselves before pointing their fingers at some Caucasian they just met who hasn't done anything to them. If I slur you, if I attack you, if I show you hateful, racist behavior, then you have a reason to hate ME, but not hate all the rest of my people.
As for the "smart" Asian kids who love to mock their "dumb" White peers, why don't you use the abilities God gave you and you developed to maybe help END their ignorance and stupidity by helping as a peer counselor or tutor. You can't do anything about what's happened before, but by not helping your fellow man because of his or her skin color, you are just as guilty of allowing ignorance to continue.
And for those of you who like to hide behind the "Model Minority" label, I can tell you from my own experience that not all Asian American kids are smart or are good in school. I spend a good deal of time tutoring several Asian kids in Math when I was in high school, college and graduate school who had really poor Math skills. I currently teach Economics part time in the evenings, and every semester I have Asian students in my class of greatly varying math and academic skills. Some are very good students with awesome skills--some are dumb as a box of hammers. Sorry to burst your bubble, but European Americans don't hold a monopoly on stupidity and poor study habits.
This is not meant to make light of racism that Asian Americans, Jews, etc. have experienced. This is meant to illustrate that Asian Americans and Jews have members of their groups who are just as bigoted as some members of my ethnicity can be. No matter how you slice it, bigotry sucks and it holds us back as a nation.
Gosh, so sensitive, Hank?
It was not a poke at white folks in general. In fact, as an Asian person, white people have, by and large, been the most tolerant of me in my experience. I went to high school in a racially mixed school where the population was as follows: about half Latino, maybe 35% white, with the balance a mixture of blacks and Asians. The Latinos on campus were far more comfortable overtly expressing racist views and taunts, perhaps because of their numbers. On "cultural" days where we'd have traditional dances from foreign lands and such, the Latinos routinely shouted stuff like "Get that [expletive] off stage! Where's the Mariachis!?" Of course, not all were that ignorant, and most of my friends wree Latino.
I of course acknowledge that many people can be bigoted no matter what background they have, rich or poor, white, black, Latino or Asian. I was trying to discern where the fine line between ethnic pride and ethnic chauvinism lies. I believe it lies somewhere between where being happy about the achievements of your culture and snidely believeing that other culture's achievements are less is.
The Klan is by no means the only hate group out there. The Nation of Islam actually believes that "white man is the devil" and if you've read "The Autobiography of Malcolm X", you'd know that he was assasinated because he saw the light - that maybe white folks weren't so bad after all.
As far as Asian bigotry - My own parents are somewhat bigoted, especially against blacks, perhaps due to the negative early experiences they had when they first came to this country. As far as black hate - my first job was an outside salesman to high schools, many of which were in "black" neighborhoods, and I could feel the tension in some of my meetings with some school officials.
Anyway, I don't think that being proud of your heritage makes you a "hater" of other cultures.
It was not a poke at white folks in general. In fact, as an Asian person, white people have, by and large, been the most tolerant of me in my experience. I went to high school in a racially mixed school where the population was as follows: about half Latino, maybe 35% white, with the balance a mixture of blacks and Asians. The Latinos on campus were far more comfortable overtly expressing racist views and taunts, perhaps because of their numbers. On "cultural" days where we'd have traditional dances from foreign lands and such, the Latinos routinely shouted stuff like "Get that [expletive] off stage! Where's the Mariachis!?" Of course, not all were that ignorant, and most of my friends wree Latino.
I of course acknowledge that many people can be bigoted no matter what background they have, rich or poor, white, black, Latino or Asian. I was trying to discern where the fine line between ethnic pride and ethnic chauvinism lies. I believe it lies somewhere between where being happy about the achievements of your culture and snidely believeing that other culture's achievements are less is.
The Klan is by no means the only hate group out there. The Nation of Islam actually believes that "white man is the devil" and if you've read "The Autobiography of Malcolm X", you'd know that he was assasinated because he saw the light - that maybe white folks weren't so bad after all.
As far as Asian bigotry - My own parents are somewhat bigoted, especially against blacks, perhaps due to the negative early experiences they had when they first came to this country. As far as black hate - my first job was an outside salesman to high schools, many of which were in "black" neighborhoods, and I could feel the tension in some of my meetings with some school officials.
Anyway, I don't think that being proud of your heritage makes you a "hater" of other cultures.
BasinBictory:
I'm not "overly sensitive"--I'm freaking pissed off because there is a strong element out there in various minority communities that seems to want to view themselves as saintly when it comes to issues on bigotry and racism and ascribe these sins as strictly those of European Americans. Such statements as "only Whites can be racist" and so forth are bigoted and quite untrue.
I have had some minority individuals give me grief because I did say that I was proud of my Swedish-Scots heritage--they seem to think that a European American being proud of their heritage is an act of racism while showing pride in their African or Chinese heritage is somehow a good thing. I would say that having pride in your heritage is good no matter what it is. These individuals didn't know that my wife is Chinese American and that my daughter is EurAsian American.
No, it just seems that somehow it's "okay" to make fun of WASP men on TV and in the movies, but not anybody else. Somehow, the powers that be in the Jewish controlled media have decided that WASP men and Christians can be the target of hatred, parody and slander in TV Shows and movies while if it is done to a WASP female it's misogyny, if it's done to a Jew it's anti-semitism, if it's done to a person of color, it's racism.
What those feces for brains organizations do not seem to realize is that people of all ethinic groups and genders and religions run the entire gamut of character strengths and flaws and can be equally cast as heroes, villians, sluts, princesses and everything else in between. In the past, and even at times now, minorities were too heavily cast in negative roles. Those who produce TVs and movies have tried to "correct" this by casting a disproportionate number of African Americans in roles of moral conscience (Morgan Freeman syndrome) or do more minority themed shows (the preponderance of comedies centered around black and latin families).
While it is an improvement, it isn't enough on many levels--Asian Americans are still marginalized in stereotypical roles (Black Sash) and aren't featured prominently in roles where they are prominent in real life (Only one Asian Doctor on ER--even a crappy comedy like Scrubs shows a large number of Asian americans working in the hospital, even if the roles are minor!!!), and the industry has this "no negative roles for Jews" policy, which makes absolutely zero sense to me. So, that leaves WASP men as the only group where it's okay to make them into villains and a-holes on TV. Since there are some positive WASP male roles on TV, it might seem okay, but when you factor in how the industry has really gone after WASP men in a negative fashion, it makes you wonder a little bit. Especially in Minority themed shows, the White dude is the heavy--the enemy as it were. How does that help mend fences as far as racial issues are concerned? Not much if you ask me.
I'm not "overly sensitive"--I'm freaking pissed off because there is a strong element out there in various minority communities that seems to want to view themselves as saintly when it comes to issues on bigotry and racism and ascribe these sins as strictly those of European Americans. Such statements as "only Whites can be racist" and so forth are bigoted and quite untrue.
I have had some minority individuals give me grief because I did say that I was proud of my Swedish-Scots heritage--they seem to think that a European American being proud of their heritage is an act of racism while showing pride in their African or Chinese heritage is somehow a good thing. I would say that having pride in your heritage is good no matter what it is. These individuals didn't know that my wife is Chinese American and that my daughter is EurAsian American.
No, it just seems that somehow it's "okay" to make fun of WASP men on TV and in the movies, but not anybody else. Somehow, the powers that be in the Jewish controlled media have decided that WASP men and Christians can be the target of hatred, parody and slander in TV Shows and movies while if it is done to a WASP female it's misogyny, if it's done to a Jew it's anti-semitism, if it's done to a person of color, it's racism.
What those feces for brains organizations do not seem to realize is that people of all ethinic groups and genders and religions run the entire gamut of character strengths and flaws and can be equally cast as heroes, villians, sluts, princesses and everything else in between. In the past, and even at times now, minorities were too heavily cast in negative roles. Those who produce TVs and movies have tried to "correct" this by casting a disproportionate number of African Americans in roles of moral conscience (Morgan Freeman syndrome) or do more minority themed shows (the preponderance of comedies centered around black and latin families).
While it is an improvement, it isn't enough on many levels--Asian Americans are still marginalized in stereotypical roles (Black Sash) and aren't featured prominently in roles where they are prominent in real life (Only one Asian Doctor on ER--even a crappy comedy like Scrubs shows a large number of Asian americans working in the hospital, even if the roles are minor!!!), and the industry has this "no negative roles for Jews" policy, which makes absolutely zero sense to me. So, that leaves WASP men as the only group where it's okay to make them into villains and a-holes on TV. Since there are some positive WASP male roles on TV, it might seem okay, but when you factor in how the industry has really gone after WASP men in a negative fashion, it makes you wonder a little bit. Especially in Minority themed shows, the White dude is the heavy--the enemy as it were. How does that help mend fences as far as racial issues are concerned? Not much if you ask me.
Racism is not a true descriptive term of a person who is prideful to the point of hating others.
Racism is theoretically the comportmentalized discrimination against other ethnic groups which has the ultimate goal of depriveing other "races" of people from reaching racial equality.
In this modern world, White Supremacy is considered to be the only true racism because through media, advertisement , GLOBAL DOMINATION through military force, forced cooperation, forced occupation, slavery, and economic sanctions it is able to subtend every race of people living on every continent from China to Cuba to Argentina.
That is not to say all white people with pride are racist, that is to say that all White people (or people with Caucasian features) benfit from white supremacist occupation worldwide. When it comes to the ability to limit others and destroy civilization, none other but White supremacists have dominated that area.
Definately the bloody Japanese occupations in China and Korea and their subjection of women from the Honduras, Oceania islands and poor Asian countries is a form of racism which is second to that committed by White Anglosaxans.
The loudest voices of racism have historically been White males with political power such as Hitler who was not the first of many. Count Vladimir "the impaler", many Yugoslavian anti-Muslims, many Muslims anti Anglo Saxan, Pharaos of Egypt, Julius Ceaser and countless other historical leaders.
The Ku Klux Klan is a joke. It is comprised mostly of White patriarch families with little or no income in America.
The true problem is corporate America and the American military.
White Supremacism begins there and needs little observation to see how it flourishes. The War on Iraq which was successful is the latest example. The true symbol of racism is not the Swatstika, it is the American Red, White and Blue flag.
Racism is theoretically the comportmentalized discrimination against other ethnic groups which has the ultimate goal of depriveing other "races" of people from reaching racial equality.
In this modern world, White Supremacy is considered to be the only true racism because through media, advertisement , GLOBAL DOMINATION through military force, forced cooperation, forced occupation, slavery, and economic sanctions it is able to subtend every race of people living on every continent from China to Cuba to Argentina.
That is not to say all white people with pride are racist, that is to say that all White people (or people with Caucasian features) benfit from white supremacist occupation worldwide. When it comes to the ability to limit others and destroy civilization, none other but White supremacists have dominated that area.
Definately the bloody Japanese occupations in China and Korea and their subjection of women from the Honduras, Oceania islands and poor Asian countries is a form of racism which is second to that committed by White Anglosaxans.
The loudest voices of racism have historically been White males with political power such as Hitler who was not the first of many. Count Vladimir "the impaler", many Yugoslavian anti-Muslims, many Muslims anti Anglo Saxan, Pharaos of Egypt, Julius Ceaser and countless other historical leaders.
The Ku Klux Klan is a joke. It is comprised mostly of White patriarch families with little or no income in America.
The true problem is corporate America and the American military.
White Supremacism begins there and needs little observation to see how it flourishes. The War on Iraq which was successful is the latest example. The true symbol of racism is not the Swatstika, it is the American Red, White and Blue flag.
Hank- your first post expressed my sentiments exactly. Go to any Asian American forum/website these days and what do you see- [epithet] is the devil, all Whites are evil, fat, dumb, ignorant, stupid. All Asians are smart, attractive, richer, age better. In reality there are good and bad people of every race. I've been on sites where I've made an honest and humble attempt to learn about the Asian American experience from an AA point of view, and I was viciously attacked as a White supremacist, honkey, KKK-loving person. On one site they basically said that I wasn't welcome unless I admitted that I was a racist *because I was white* and that I was benefitting from "white privilege". I no longer visit that site. I have absolutely no problem with AA's finding empowerment through celebrating their culture, heritage, or language but I do have a problem when the sole means of attaining empowerment is belittling other races with mixed-up notions of Asian supremacy.
Hank,
I would have to agree with you that there is a different set of standards for the when it comes to pride of the minority versus the majority. Recently I read somewhere that the supreme court was going to actually pass judgement on whether or not the public school system in NJ had the right to punish a kid who were a T-shirt with redneck jokes on them. Apparently the kid bought the shirt at Wal-mart with those popular comedian Jeff Foxworthy list of "you know you're a redneck...."
The supreme court tossed the case out.
My knee jerk reaction to reading the news, was jeez that where my tax dollars are going, the protection of redneck civil rights.
But then I realized my own double standard to the concept. I highly doubt there would have been a Supreme Court case of the T-shirt had a racial slur of blacks or Jews, since walmart wouldn't carry such an item.
And since that Abercrombie and Finch incident. I'm sure corporate america will think twice about make asian racial slur t-shirts.
But in the eye of the court system they basically feel that certain white racial slurs are non-intimidating, I guess due to the fact whites are still the majority.
Well I don't know if it fair to say Jews aren't protrayed as villians on TV. I seen quite a few Jews portrayed as evil in Law & Order. Even in NYC moderate Jews often time even make fun of conservative Jews for not trying to assimilate more into the manstream. As one of my Jewish associate joked with me once. In certain parts of Brooklyn, if you're not wearing black and have curly sideburns, they (Hasidic Jews) just don't see you. Reference to how frustrating it was for him to deal with certain Jews.
Like they say in NYC, it is your God given right to piss on the next group of immigrants that arrived 5 minutes after you.
I would have to agree with you that there is a different set of standards for the when it comes to pride of the minority versus the majority. Recently I read somewhere that the supreme court was going to actually pass judgement on whether or not the public school system in NJ had the right to punish a kid who were a T-shirt with redneck jokes on them. Apparently the kid bought the shirt at Wal-mart with those popular comedian Jeff Foxworthy list of "you know you're a redneck...."
The supreme court tossed the case out.
My knee jerk reaction to reading the news, was jeez that where my tax dollars are going, the protection of redneck civil rights.
But then I realized my own double standard to the concept. I highly doubt there would have been a Supreme Court case of the T-shirt had a racial slur of blacks or Jews, since walmart wouldn't carry such an item.
And since that Abercrombie and Finch incident. I'm sure corporate america will think twice about make asian racial slur t-shirts.
But in the eye of the court system they basically feel that certain white racial slurs are non-intimidating, I guess due to the fact whites are still the majority.
Well I don't know if it fair to say Jews aren't protrayed as villians on TV. I seen quite a few Jews portrayed as evil in Law & Order. Even in NYC moderate Jews often time even make fun of conservative Jews for not trying to assimilate more into the manstream. As one of my Jewish associate joked with me once. In certain parts of Brooklyn, if you're not wearing black and have curly sideburns, they (Hasidic Jews) just don't see you. Reference to how frustrating it was for him to deal with certain Jews.
Like they say in NYC, it is your God given right to piss on the next group of immigrants that arrived 5 minutes after you.
oh man.
I think its very obvious that whites don't experience racism even 1% of what blacks, asians, mexicans feel.
Look at the best paying jobs. Look at virtually all of Fortune 500 CEO's. Look at the rejection rates of 1500 SAT scores at Harvard, vs the rejection rate of 1500's of Asians at Harvard.
Honestly, reverse racism is clearly a knee jerk reaction. What you are essentially complaining about is "Ouch!!! Your face hurt the hell outta my fist. Damn you! You hurt me too! See? You did attack my fist!"
Lets not talk about instances. Lets talk about societal influence and significance. The only racism that most whites would feel from asians is usually a girl saying " sorry, I only date Asian guys". OH MY GOODNESS! CALL THE RACISM POLICE PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!
I think its very obvious that whites don't experience racism even 1% of what blacks, asians, mexicans feel.
Look at the best paying jobs. Look at virtually all of Fortune 500 CEO's. Look at the rejection rates of 1500 SAT scores at Harvard, vs the rejection rate of 1500's of Asians at Harvard.
Honestly, reverse racism is clearly a knee jerk reaction. What you are essentially complaining about is "Ouch!!! Your face hurt the hell outta my fist. Damn you! You hurt me too! See? You did attack my fist!"
Lets not talk about instances. Lets talk about societal influence and significance. The only racism that most whites would feel from asians is usually a girl saying " sorry, I only date Asian guys". OH MY GOODNESS! CALL THE RACISM POLICE PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!
nicholiserviaphd
???? is this the same Nick who's proud of working under the American flag here? You're starting to sound less like a White American guy and more like a Non-White Non-American guy who just happens to work for an American Tuna Cannery company. Go figure. I'm not sure where you stand at all within the context of the bigger picture.
| QUOTE |
| The true symbol of racism is not the Swatstika, it is the American Red, White and Blue flag. |
nicholiserviaphd
???? is this the same Nick who's proud of working under the American flag here? You're starting to sound less like a White American guy and more like a Non-White Non-American guy who just happens to work for an American Tuna Cannery company. Go figure. I'm not sure where you stand at all within the context of the bigger picture.
| QUOTE |
| The true symbol of racism is not the Swatstika, it is the American Red, White and Blue flag. |
this the same Nick who's proud of working under the American flag here? You're starting to sound less like a White American guy and more like a Non-White Non-American guy who just happens to work for an American Tuna Cannery company. Go figure. I'm not sure where you stand at all within the context of the bigger picture.
That is perfect! I am glad you are confused because that is the way you should be.
I stand on all sides of the situation.
Racism has no place in science, only in psychology which is NOT a science, rather an ART of the mind.
I see racism through the eyes of every race. Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians,Muslims, Indians and Islanders.
The only thing I can come up with is that Racism is neccessary in human civilization for the advancement of mankind.
Racism and prejudices towards others is the illogical logic which makes all psycho social behaviors, international relations and relatiosnhips possible.
Without PREJUDICE there can be no natural selection.
Without CONFLICT there can be no survivval of the fittest and therefore NO EVOLUTION.
Without Racism there can be no forward growth of man because:
#1 The majority of man's technological improvements were results of wars against others
#2 There is no need to improve past the farthest mark and
#3 There is no purpose to life. Without Racism society would collapse.
Racism and Prejudice are simply factors that are stems of Evolution.
Sure you can claim "I wish the world were happy" , "I wish everything were perfect", I wish nobody hated and ...BLAH BLAH BLAH but the TRUTH of the matter is without Human conflict, there would be no improvement Social or technological.
WAR WILL NEVER END AS LONG AS THERE ARE MEN TO FIGHT IT.
You talk about this bigger picture butyou have no idea what it is? What exactly is this BIGGER PICTURE? Your own personal safety and happiness?
The Bigger Picture is none other that the factthat we are all victims of the same cycle. Its just that, in this life, I happen to be a contributor to the cycle rather than passive.
That is perfect! I am glad you are confused because that is the way you should be.
I stand on all sides of the situation.
Racism has no place in science, only in psychology which is NOT a science, rather an ART of the mind.
I see racism through the eyes of every race. Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians,Muslims, Indians and Islanders.
The only thing I can come up with is that Racism is neccessary in human civilization for the advancement of mankind.
Racism and prejudices towards others is the illogical logic which makes all psycho social behaviors, international relations and relatiosnhips possible.
Without PREJUDICE there can be no natural selection.
Without CONFLICT there can be no survivval of the fittest and therefore NO EVOLUTION.
Without Racism there can be no forward growth of man because:
#1 The majority of man's technological improvements were results of wars against others
#2 There is no need to improve past the farthest mark and
#3 There is no purpose to life. Without Racism society would collapse.
Racism and Prejudice are simply factors that are stems of Evolution.
Sure you can claim "I wish the world were happy" , "I wish everything were perfect", I wish nobody hated and ...BLAH BLAH BLAH but the TRUTH of the matter is without Human conflict, there would be no improvement Social or technological.
WAR WILL NEVER END AS LONG AS THERE ARE MEN TO FIGHT IT.
You talk about this bigger picture butyou have no idea what it is? What exactly is this BIGGER PICTURE? Your own personal safety and happiness?
The Bigger Picture is none other that the factthat we are all victims of the same cycle. Its just that, in this life, I happen to be a contributor to the cycle rather than passive.
Nick,
You're latest attempt at dissemenating your philosophy only reflects the limited understanding of the subject you are trying to discusss.
Let's take your concept of biological evolution and how you totally confuse it with your concept of conflict along racial lines. Evolution is a random occurance, which the environment selects the "fittest" to pass on their genes bases on the individual ability to survive to reproductive age in that local environment. Most biologist believe that our population is currently selecting for the trait of intelligence and other mental attributes, since we have more or less conquered our physical environment.
But let's look at your conjecture. You believe racism is part of evolution. If that is the case wouldn't it seem logical that in a racist environment that the next generation of people would have phenotypical traits that would make them a less likely target for racism. So hapas like yourself and MLK are suppose to be the majority by now, since different ethnic people have know about each other for thousands of generations by now. However, that is not the case. So you hypothesis needs more work to be robust. I doubt a person with a PhD in self inflicted electrocution has the necessary background to make this a worthwild disscussion.
Then in your rambling you touch upon a topic widely debated by socialologist. The concept that conflict helps the society evolve. However, the counter argument that is widely known is that controlled conflict is only a tool used to keep the elite status among a select few, which you are not a part of. So men like you will die and fight to keep elites like me in our current position. We tell you who the enemies are and you believe it long enough to not notice we elites are getting richer from your endeavors.
Like MLK point our your views are extremely provincial and not worldly at all. I suspect a tuna fisherman has seen more of the world than you. I fear the biggest picture you can see is only the 17" monitor in front of you.
I use to subscribe to the belief of asian supremcy, due to the environment I grew up in. Then when I went to college I realised I was incorrect in my basic assumption that asians were innately better, and what I observed in the USA was really what is called the "bottleneck" effect in biology and the immigration process in the USA. However, in your special case I will be more than happy to share my old views, just to show you what a ignorant fool you are. hehehehe.
You're latest attempt at dissemenating your philosophy only reflects the limited understanding of the subject you are trying to discusss.
Let's take your concept of biological evolution and how you totally confuse it with your concept of conflict along racial lines. Evolution is a random occurance, which the environment selects the "fittest" to pass on their genes bases on the individual ability to survive to reproductive age in that local environment. Most biologist believe that our population is currently selecting for the trait of intelligence and other mental attributes, since we have more or less conquered our physical environment.
But let's look at your conjecture. You believe racism is part of evolution. If that is the case wouldn't it seem logical that in a racist environment that the next generation of people would have phenotypical traits that would make them a less likely target for racism. So hapas like yourself and MLK are suppose to be the majority by now, since different ethnic people have know about each other for thousands of generations by now. However, that is not the case. So you hypothesis needs more work to be robust. I doubt a person with a PhD in self inflicted electrocution has the necessary background to make this a worthwild disscussion.
Then in your rambling you touch upon a topic widely debated by socialologist. The concept that conflict helps the society evolve. However, the counter argument that is widely known is that controlled conflict is only a tool used to keep the elite status among a select few, which you are not a part of. So men like you will die and fight to keep elites like me in our current position. We tell you who the enemies are and you believe it long enough to not notice we elites are getting richer from your endeavors.
Like MLK point our your views are extremely provincial and not worldly at all. I suspect a tuna fisherman has seen more of the world than you. I fear the biggest picture you can see is only the 17" monitor in front of you.
I use to subscribe to the belief of asian supremcy, due to the environment I grew up in. Then when I went to college I realised I was incorrect in my basic assumption that asians were innately better, and what I observed in the USA was really what is called the "bottleneck" effect in biology and the immigration process in the USA. However, in your special case I will be more than happy to share my old views, just to show you what a ignorant fool you are. hehehehe.
For a levelheaded, unemotional, and historically-correct analysis of such things as the domination/destruction of one culture by another and the abuses of colonialism, may I highly recommend Jared Diamond's excellent book, "Guns, Germs and Steel"?
I agree that humans, as a species, have what I'll call "tribalistic" tendencies; and I also believe that racialism/racism is simply tribalism on a much larger scale. When there ARE few-to-no racial differences among people, people will often nevertheless create articifial differences in their own minds in order to justify strife with their neighbors. Do you think that there is, for example, much racial difference between the Tutsi and Hutu tribes? There's no racial difference whatsoever, but they are divided by tribal loyalties, and they readily hack one another to death with machetes whenever the opportunity arises. Noted primate ethnologist Jane Goodall has even observed "tribes" of chimpanzees going to war against other "tribes" of chimpanzees (I believe that the correct term for a related group of chimps would be "troop", not "tribe", but you get the general idea).
When we consider men who conquered large areas of the world, we readily remember men like the Caesars and Alexander the Great; but it's helpful to remember that hordes of Mongolian warriors descended from their natives steppes, conquering areas to the west, and making incursions far into Eastern Europe. If you look at the features of many people from Eastern Europe, you can readily see the influence of Mongolian genes in their faces. (My own father remarked to me once that he thought that my maternal grandmother "looked Chinese"; I had to look hard to see what he was talking about, but, once I looked, it was clearly there, in the shape of her cheekbones and her eyelids.)
I agree that humans, as a species, have what I'll call "tribalistic" tendencies; and I also believe that racialism/racism is simply tribalism on a much larger scale. When there ARE few-to-no racial differences among people, people will often nevertheless create articifial differences in their own minds in order to justify strife with their neighbors. Do you think that there is, for example, much racial difference between the Tutsi and Hutu tribes? There's no racial difference whatsoever, but they are divided by tribal loyalties, and they readily hack one another to death with machetes whenever the opportunity arises. Noted primate ethnologist Jane Goodall has even observed "tribes" of chimpanzees going to war against other "tribes" of chimpanzees (I believe that the correct term for a related group of chimps would be "troop", not "tribe", but you get the general idea).
When we consider men who conquered large areas of the world, we readily remember men like the Caesars and Alexander the Great; but it's helpful to remember that hordes of Mongolian warriors descended from their natives steppes, conquering areas to the west, and making incursions far into Eastern Europe. If you look at the features of many people from Eastern Europe, you can readily see the influence of Mongolian genes in their faces. (My own father remarked to me once that he thought that my maternal grandmother "looked Chinese"; I had to look hard to see what he was talking about, but, once I looked, it was clearly there, in the shape of her cheekbones and her eyelids.)
OriginalCyn,
I believe it is only because many of us on Goldsea are educated in the West that we know about Cesear and Alexandar. I grant you if we were brought up in the East, we would have a whole other set of mythos to replace those individuals.
But once again the tribal or troop concept can be distilled as a social structure to ensure that the leadership retains power and control over a group. That is the only reason why smaller groups would form over time, to give more individuals a chance at attaining the alpha role in the group and subgroup.
I believe it is only because many of us on Goldsea are educated in the West that we know about Cesear and Alexandar. I grant you if we were brought up in the East, we would have a whole other set of mythos to replace those individuals.
But once again the tribal or troop concept can be distilled as a social structure to ensure that the leadership retains power and control over a group. That is the only reason why smaller groups would form over time, to give more individuals a chance at attaining the alpha role in the group and subgroup.
Hank,
In reply to your post on may 13,
Anyway, I, myself don't think all caucasians are fat, hairy, ugly, etc. etc, and i'm sure most asains don't see it like that. i, for one only see the good things of the white people. And if anyone who do think that way, reason may be is that they were pick on before. Sometimes people can be crude even when they are fully adults, it's such ashame.
Hank, there are also forum of white people who praise themselves and put down other race, ie. asian. They will hold sterotypes that are for them and against others (this is true for everyone). I think the reason for them in doing that is because they are the one's that have some self esteen problem. They seen to put down other and thinking that it will bring their insecurities up or something. Hank, i'm not sure how many forum have you been on. But just not too long ago, i was on this forum that only favors white but put down asian especially guys all the time. I get tired of going there.
Some people can just be a two face racist, like for example some white males (not just males but i'm sure it can be the other way around) that i've seen who would act like they're not racist when it comes to posting on an asain forum but will be so bias when it comes to posting on their on forum. Or i've even see white males who would love asian girls but would be so racist against asain culture and guys. There are all kinds of people and you can't just help it, there are even white people who think that they are better than everyone else, i.e like white are most attractive, beauty is white, white have political, and economically power------- believe it or not.
Just some thoughts
In reply to your post on may 13,
Anyway, I, myself don't think all caucasians are fat, hairy, ugly, etc. etc, and i'm sure most asains don't see it like that. i, for one only see the good things of the white people. And if anyone who do think that way, reason may be is that they were pick on before. Sometimes people can be crude even when they are fully adults, it's such ashame.
Hank, there are also forum of white people who praise themselves and put down other race, ie. asian. They will hold sterotypes that are for them and against others (this is true for everyone). I think the reason for them in doing that is because they are the one's that have some self esteen problem. They seen to put down other and thinking that it will bring their insecurities up or something. Hank, i'm not sure how many forum have you been on. But just not too long ago, i was on this forum that only favors white but put down asian especially guys all the time. I get tired of going there.
Some people can just be a two face racist, like for example some white males (not just males but i'm sure it can be the other way around) that i've seen who would act like they're not racist when it comes to posting on an asain forum but will be so bias when it comes to posting on their on forum. Or i've even see white males who would love asian girls but would be so racist against asain culture and guys. There are all kinds of people and you can't just help it, there are even white people who think that they are better than everyone else, i.e like white are most attractive, beauty is white, white have political, and economically power------- believe it or not.
Just some thoughts
Nick is a mixie? Well that explains a lot--all the anger and frustration, not really sure which way the wind blows and not really sure which wind to follow. I have a slight understanding of the mixed-mentality...or at the very least, I won't torment you any longer, knowing how much you have already been tormented. peace.
Mazada:
I've been posting on this forum for a number of years. I am full well aware of the way some White people show ignorance towards those of other ethnic groups and cultures. However, people of color and non-White ethinicity are equally ignorant as to the diversity of White American culture, ancestry and so forth on down the line as well.
Here's a link to the Center for the Study of White American Culture
It's not a White Supremacy group--it is a multiracial organization which helps promote understanding between Whites and other ethnic groups. Take a look around at it.
I've been posting on this forum for a number of years. I am full well aware of the way some White people show ignorance towards those of other ethnic groups and cultures. However, people of color and non-White ethinicity are equally ignorant as to the diversity of White American culture, ancestry and so forth on down the line as well.
Here's a link to the Center for the Study of White American Culture
It's not a White Supremacy group--it is a multiracial organization which helps promote understanding between Whites and other ethnic groups. Take a look around at it.
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Hank said:..I am full well aware of the way some White people show ignorance towards those of other ethnic groups and cultures. However, people of color and non-White ethinicity are equally ignorant as to the diversity of White American culture, ancestry and so forth on down the line as well... |
Yes, but when white folks do it, everyone knows that the social stigma inflicted upon other races are of an unequal magnitude and far more serious. White chauvinism is a pervasive malignancy that hides behind a facade of "modernization" and biased, selfish "liberalism". Affliction usually means that the non-white cultures are either totally lost or trivialised to the point of parody or "superstitions".
MLK,
I don't think that by letting Nick live in his fantasy world we would be doing him any favors. People need to live in reality to be productive in life. By giving him face and letting him be is only letting him sweep his problems under the rug.
I don't think that by letting Nick live in his fantasy world we would be doing him any favors. People need to live in reality to be productive in life. By giving him face and letting him be is only letting him sweep his problems under the rug.
Look, folks, screw all this intellectual and politically correct discussions about racism. Like rayray said and implied, the racism by the white majority - subtle or otherwise - still dominates the racism in this society. While I agree with Hank Lewis in principle, the cold reality is that minorities are the groups suffering most from the white supremacy for decades and centuries, despite their propaganda about equality, meritocracy, etc. I'll believe that the white majority are sincere about their lofty claims only when I see a LOT more minorities including Asian, of course, in the top positions of power and wealth, whether in private or public sectors, based, yes, on their qualifications, instead of the unqualified or less qualified whites who are there more by virtue of their race than not. Talk is cheap, so let's see some more actions, shall we?
On the same note, I agree with jotun, also.
ACD
I will, once again, take up your wise advice. You want me to heat up a debate with Nick, you got it...only I don't see him anywhere at all. I think you scared him off. But just in case he's lurking somewhere around here, I will draw my Sword of Debate and pick up the thread where he left off.
Here (...hands ACD the gold pom poms...) you wave this thing around a bit while I inspect my blade to make sure it's not rusted from the last bloody battle upon whence I last dueled.
I will, once again, take up your wise advice. You want me to heat up a debate with Nick, you got it...only I don't see him anywhere at all. I think you scared him off. But just in case he's lurking somewhere around here, I will draw my Sword of Debate and pick up the thread where he left off.
Here (...hands ACD the gold pom poms...) you wave this thing around a bit while I inspect my blade to make sure it's not rusted from the last bloody battle upon whence I last dueled.
Nick,
Spoken like a true literary henchman. If you can?t write cohesively and clearly and precisely, you have failed as a writer in all possible levels of literary competence. Observe the point of my verbal thrust. It hits home and gives you NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER of its effectiveness. You will never be confused as to where, how, and why you have been slain.
Allow me to twist the point of my embedded sword just a little to prove my point. You are clueless. And that is to be expected, since you are lacking in the number one requirement that all gentlemen with class and distinction must possess, INTEGRITY. You sway to the wind, ebb and flow with the tides, and kow-tow to the wills of superior minds.
I beg to differ. Hitler took racism and science to new heights when he genetically engineered human beings to create his ?Aryan? race (did I spell that right?) of blue-eyed blonds. And as far as psychology is concerned, you have just stumbled upon my grad-study-de-choix, so DON?T EVEN GO THERE, BROTHER, lest you have the desire to be creamed like so much processed potted meat.
Here is where your lack of psychological concepts is going to hurt you badly.? Everything in the universe goes through various stages at all levels of growth, with the infancy stages being the most egotistical (in the classic psych terminology, not the current definition).? We are climbing out of the infancy stage and now must integrate with other Kindergarten children if we are to successfully enter the next phase of humanity?s growth, early childhood.? With the advent of nature?s gift to humankind, the increased size and weight of the frontal lobes, men have to outgrow caveman tendencies to beat on their chests and yodel, or make war with neighboring tribes to garner foraging areas and ripe females.? And women have to use their frontal lobes (no not those, you horny man, the ones inside their cranial cavities) to persuade and affect the changes in attitudes of the men.
Well, I guess once all you warring men finish killing each other off, we women will inherit the earth and peace will ensue. Yeah! No more obnoxious, swarthy, smelly, beer-guzzling guys who make a mess of the environment and waste resources on stupid things like warheads and chemical weapons!
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| I am glad you are confused because that is the way you should be. |
| QUOTE |
| I stand on all sides of the situation. |
| QUOTE |
| Racism has no place in science, only in psychology which is NOT a science, rather an ART of the mind. |
| QUOTE |
| Racism is neccessary in human civilization for the advancement of mankind. |
| QUOTE |
| WAR WILL NEVER END AS LONG AS THERE ARE MEN TO FIGHT IT. |
OriginalCyn,
Interesting topic, tribalism. It manifests itself in every level of human experience. A person generally identifies themselves on either a national, ethnic, religious, or political basis. But even then, the mentality of difference doesn't cease there. Among different groups are further and further divisions, down to nuclear families. Even then, some members of families regard themselves as superior to their own family members. At my work, we have rivalries with other sections of the plant, and it is nearly comical to see people beat their chests over being a member of a supposedly "elite" group within the workplace. And divisions still don't end there. Even on a sports team, where everyone is supposedly on the same page and striving for a very defined and objective goal, there exist mutually exclusive cliques.
Interesting topic, tribalism. It manifests itself in every level of human experience. A person generally identifies themselves on either a national, ethnic, religious, or political basis. But even then, the mentality of difference doesn't cease there. Among different groups are further and further divisions, down to nuclear families. Even then, some members of families regard themselves as superior to their own family members. At my work, we have rivalries with other sections of the plant, and it is nearly comical to see people beat their chests over being a member of a supposedly "elite" group within the workplace. And divisions still don't end there. Even on a sports team, where everyone is supposedly on the same page and striving for a very defined and objective goal, there exist mutually exclusive cliques.
Supremacy is a fallacious concept, totally inapplicable to races that are still being subjugated or persecuted by a dominant race. If one were to go by its common definition, it is clearly a misnomer. Supremacy is to be without peer. Thus, racial supremacy is an indulgence that is only feasible to the mindsets and behavior of members of the dominant race. The main impetus behind racial supremacy today is the dominant race's desire to maintain the status-quo by denigrating the collective spirit and identities of subjugated races through institutionalized marginalization and actual genocide. To quote someone, "those who are in power will not relinquish them without a struggle". It is now ever more obvious that, while physical colonialism is no longer in vogue, cultural and spiritual colonialism is substained to ensure a hierarchical social structure favorable only towards the dominant race. The longevity of such virulent incursions is derived not only by the perpetuating forces (the white race, what else?), but also by the dominated through instilled identity amnesia falsely promoted as "integrative" progress. Its debilitating societal effects on non-white persons and communities are obvious.
In response to the imposition of racial supremacy, modern day racial pride is formed as a social consciousness akin to self-preservation. It is a reaction towards external persecution - a defense mechanism against the impending racial and cultural dissolution through the inexorable, widespread incursions by the oppressors. At a glance, there appears to be a fine line between racial pride and supremacy. However, the truth is that these concepts are vastly different. Where pride is reactive, supremacy is incursive in nature because it thrives on conflicts and all-out triumph over any competitor - it is to be peerless. It is racial supremacy that has seen the greatest atrocities committed with sheer impunity and arrogance, on an unprecedented scale in modern human history for the last 600 years. Undoubtedly, all these atrocities were committed under different guises, be it in the name of a "better" religion or a "higher" civilization, but their motivations remain the same. It is also most apparent that the greatest and most significant perpetrator of racial supremacy is the white people.
It is not difficult to come to the realization that even the greatest "ills" brought about by non-white racial pride and prejudice will pale to the most benign influence of the evils of white racial supremacy today. The ubiquitous nature of white culture is one that consistently extols only its own mostly, racial, virtues above all else while diminishing those of others. Its subsistence is a cancer eating away at the social fabric of every non-white race.
In response to the imposition of racial supremacy, modern day racial pride is formed as a social consciousness akin to self-preservation. It is a reaction towards external persecution - a defense mechanism against the impending racial and cultural dissolution through the inexorable, widespread incursions by the oppressors. At a glance, there appears to be a fine line between racial pride and supremacy. However, the truth is that these concepts are vastly different. Where pride is reactive, supremacy is incursive in nature because it thrives on conflicts and all-out triumph over any competitor - it is to be peerless. It is racial supremacy that has seen the greatest atrocities committed with sheer impunity and arrogance, on an unprecedented scale in modern human history for the last 600 years. Undoubtedly, all these atrocities were committed under different guises, be it in the name of a "better" religion or a "higher" civilization, but their motivations remain the same. It is also most apparent that the greatest and most significant perpetrator of racial supremacy is the white people.
It is not difficult to come to the realization that even the greatest "ills" brought about by non-white racial pride and prejudice will pale to the most benign influence of the evils of white racial supremacy today. The ubiquitous nature of white culture is one that consistently extols only its own mostly, racial, virtues above all else while diminishing those of others. Its subsistence is a cancer eating away at the social fabric of every non-white race.
OutofEast:
It depends upon which nations you are referring to. In a good number of Asian and Latin Nations, Whites are the Minority and they are not those who are in power by any stretch of the imagination.
As far as incompetant Whites in positions of power in politics and business, we can say that there's enough incompetance to go around. Recall the writer at the New York times, who was African American, and his Editor, a self-described "liberal" White man?
I hate to say this, but your assumption that a White person in a managerial position is automatically there because of their race (Due to White Supremacy) and not their qualifications sounds a lot like some Whites assuming that someone of a Minority who has been hired to a position is only there becaue of their race (in this case, for Affirmative Action Programs) and not their qualifications. I'm not saying that there aren't incompetants who are hired because of their race or their connections, but I am saying it's wrong to assume that up front.
It depends upon which nations you are referring to. In a good number of Asian and Latin Nations, Whites are the Minority and they are not those who are in power by any stretch of the imagination.
As far as incompetant Whites in positions of power in politics and business, we can say that there's enough incompetance to go around. Recall the writer at the New York times, who was African American, and his Editor, a self-described "liberal" White man?
I hate to say this, but your assumption that a White person in a managerial position is automatically there because of their race (Due to White Supremacy) and not their qualifications sounds a lot like some Whites assuming that someone of a Minority who has been hired to a position is only there becaue of their race (in this case, for Affirmative Action Programs) and not their qualifications. I'm not saying that there aren't incompetants who are hired because of their race or their connections, but I am saying it's wrong to assume that up front.
Hank Lewis,
First, you really need to give me a bit more credit to my objectivity and certainly not distort my statements.
A quite obvious observation that any person of average intelligence is aware of, including, no less, me. The main difference between these nations and the U.S. is that the former do not constantly propagandize loudly about being THE land of equal opportunity, liberty, and freedom for ALL like the latter which has failed miserably to live up these claims for the minorities since its inception. If it has not been making these false claims - which, by the way, were also used as pretext to even invade countries like Vietnam and incur heavy damages - then, I, for one, would not single it out. But, as was and is still the case, it's same-o same-o as usual.
Another pointlessly obvious statement.
Well, if we look hard enough, we can always find an example, even if rare, to support any argument, can't we?
Your biggest mistake to my comment by wrongly assuming that this is what I meant, which clearly was not. I'm not so stupid as to make such a stupid blanket statement to claim that all whites in power are there solely by their race. I know better. However, you cannot deny the fact that there are far more (or, rather, shall we say, a lot fewer minority ) whites in the positions of leadership and some just do not have the qualifications and skills to be there at all. The reason why they may appear to be competent is more because they have competent subordinates working under thaem who make them look like they are competent leaders. A minority in such a situation, whether qualified or not, certainly could do no less them such whites. We can argue back and forth endlessly from idealist points of views, but the reality is that this society is still farfrom being ideal to use your arguments to rationalize and justify the glaring socioeconomic disparities which exist the white majority and the minorities including, of course, AAs. Peace, Mr. Righteous.
First, you really need to give me a bit more credit to my objectivity and certainly not distort my statements.
| QUOTE |
| It depends upon which nations you are referring to. In a good number of Asian and Latin Nations, Whites are the Minority and they are not those who are in power by any stretch of the imagination. |
A quite obvious observation that any person of average intelligence is aware of, including, no less, me. The main difference between these nations and the U.S. is that the former do not constantly propagandize loudly about being THE land of equal opportunity, liberty, and freedom for ALL like the latter which has failed miserably to live up these claims for the minorities since its inception. If it has not been making these false claims - which, by the way, were also used as pretext to even invade countries like Vietnam and incur heavy damages - then, I, for one, would not single it out. But, as was and is still the case, it's same-o same-o as usual.
| QUOTE |
| As far as incompetant Whites in positions of power in politics and business, we can say that there's enough incompetance to go around. |
Another pointlessly obvious statement.
| QUOTE |
| Recall the writer at the New York times, who was African American, and his Editor, a self-described "liberal" White man? |
Well, if we look hard enough, we can always find an example, even if rare, to support any argument, can't we?
| QUOTE |
| I hate to say this, but your assumption that a White person in a managerial position is automatically there because of their race (Due to White Supremacy) and not their qualifications sounds a lot like some Whites assuming that someone of a Minority who has been hired to a position is only there becaue of their race (in this case, for Affirmative Action Programs) and not their qualifications. I'm not saying that there aren't incompetants who are hired because of their race or their connections, but I am saying it's wrong to assume that up front. |
Your biggest mistake to my comment by wrongly assuming that this is what I meant, which clearly was not. I'm not so stupid as to make such a stupid blanket statement to claim that all whites in power are there solely by their race. I know better. However, you cannot deny the fact that there are far more (or, rather, shall we say, a lot fewer minority ) whites in the positions of leadership and some just do not have the qualifications and skills to be there at all. The reason why they may appear to be competent is more because they have competent subordinates working under thaem who make them look like they are competent leaders. A minority in such a situation, whether qualified or not, certainly could do no less them such whites. We can argue back and forth endlessly from idealist points of views, but the reality is that this society is still farfrom being ideal to use your arguments to rationalize and justify the glaring socioeconomic disparities which exist the white majority and the minorities including, of course, AAs. Peace, Mr. Righteous.
Hank,
Bah! You don't have to look to far for that example of white men getting far more credit than their competencies actually warrant. Look at S.E. Asia, there was a perpetual hunt since WW2 to get more Western "foreign talent" into the region. Like nearly every Western expatriate in those countries, most of them had fat paychecks and got choice jobs over the locals. Was it for their skills? Hell no! The Asian Economic Crisis of 98 was a rude wake-up call and now that belts are being tightened, these countries are beginning to overcome their mystified regards for "gwailos". They are wising up to the harsh reality that "gwailos" are truly overrated in every aspect. As a result, "gwailos" are now getting the boot because it is obviously cheaper to pay a local for half the wage to fail, rather than some pinkskin who only beat their drums but do nothing else and still make a mess of the business, as they have always done in the past.
Bah! You don't have to look to far for that example of white men getting far more credit than their competencies actually warrant. Look at S.E. Asia, there was a perpetual hunt since WW2 to get more Western "foreign talent" into the region. Like nearly every Western expatriate in those countries, most of them had fat paychecks and got choice jobs over the locals. Was it for their skills? Hell no! The Asian Economic Crisis of 98 was a rude wake-up call and now that belts are being tightened, these countries are beginning to overcome their mystified regards for "gwailos". They are wising up to the harsh reality that "gwailos" are truly overrated in every aspect. As a result, "gwailos" are now getting the boot because it is obviously cheaper to pay a local for half the wage to fail, rather than some pinkskin who only beat their drums but do nothing else and still make a mess of the business, as they have always done in the past.
Part of the reason why white supremacy is as virulent as it is, is because we allow it to grow by giving in to its whims and fancies. It is a sickening thing to know that gwailos have always been overrated by us Asians, no less, since WW2 when our white colonial "keepers" in S.E. Asia had their s--t beaten out of them by the Japanese and they abandoned their colonies en masse.
I must say that it is high time we started re-investing in our future which is in Asia, really.
I must say that it is high time we started re-investing in our future which is in Asia, really.
jotun,
I'm interested in hearing your ideas and suggestions for accomplishing this.
| QUOTE |
| I must say that it is high time we started re-investing in our future which is in Asia, really. |
I'm interested in hearing your ideas and suggestions for accomplishing this.
What do you do? What do you study? Is it an area in which Asia is behind? (Science/Tech etc.) Then make an effort to bring those skills to your country of origin. Look for that job in Seoul/Beijing/Tokyo instead of SF/NYC/Chicago and bring what you've learned to Asia and try to become a conduit for the transfer of knowledge to Asia. Actually, in my mind, there is only one area in which European culture is objectively better than Asian culture - Science and Technology. Everything else is a subjective equivalent (i.e., chopstick vs. fork). Which is why I think it's silly that some Asian people are so into European clothes, hairstyles, food, etc. Sometimes I walk into an Asian person's home and won't be able to find a single clue as to their cultural identity, if anything, a lot of Asian people seem to overcompensate by embracing things that are super "European" in flavor. It only opens the door for Whites to naturally assume their supremacy over us when they see us dying our hair to look like them, wearing colored contacts to look like them, dressing to look like them. I also take this opportunity to express my disgust for defeatist Asians who are always telling me how "boring" our hair/eye color is, how much "cuter" White/Mixed babies are, and how "there's nothing we can do" to break out of the White dominated world order.
I concede that we are all products of this world order, and have all been affected by it. However, the only way to reshuffle this stacked deck is by a stubborn insistence of our own SUPERIORITY in the face of those who would like nothing better than for us to denigrate ourselves by accepting and spreading their SUPREMACY. There's absolutely nothing wrong or evil about asserting your own cultural superiority. That is basic human nature - Whites do it everyday in both overt and covert ways (overt: China must rid itself of its own government and let us teach them how to govern themselves) (covert: Used Levi's collected in U.S. selling for $100/pair in Tokyo). Who could blame them? Heck, if Americans in NYC were paying 100 bucks a pop for used Chinese peasant hats I'd definitely splash it across the Asian newspapers and gloat at the power of our culture. But perhaps we should stop being such suckers for European cultural power. Remember that everytime you pay a premium for a European fashion, brand, etc., you are contributing to the cultural supremacy of the White/European world order. Hmm. . . may be I should return those damn $100 Italian sun glasses and buy a pair of $10 gas station ones that are invariably "made in china" =)
I concede that we are all products of this world order, and have all been affected by it. However, the only way to reshuffle this stacked deck is by a stubborn insistence of our own SUPERIORITY in the face of those who would like nothing better than for us to denigrate ourselves by accepting and spreading their SUPREMACY. There's absolutely nothing wrong or evil about asserting your own cultural superiority. That is basic human nature - Whites do it everyday in both overt and covert ways (overt: China must rid itself of its own government and let us teach them how to govern themselves) (covert: Used Levi's collected in U.S. selling for $100/pair in Tokyo). Who could blame them? Heck, if Americans in NYC were paying 100 bucks a pop for used Chinese peasant hats I'd definitely splash it across the Asian newspapers and gloat at the power of our culture. But perhaps we should stop being such suckers for European cultural power. Remember that everytime you pay a premium for a European fashion, brand, etc., you are contributing to the cultural supremacy of the White/European world order. Hmm. . . may be I should return those damn $100 Italian sun glasses and buy a pair of $10 gas station ones that are invariably "made in china" =)
Jotun:
If you're suggesting that Asian Americans should leave the USA and repatriate to nations of ancestry, I think you are being delusional. For one thing, Asian Americans have been here to long and are too acculturated to "go back." That would be like me trying to move to Scotland or Sweden and trying to make a place for myself there. It wouldn't work long term.
For another, I think that doing that would be like "admitting defeat" on some level--rather than sticking it out and living the dream of equality and prosperity, which I personally believe is possible for all Americans who are willing to work. I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses though--there are problems here, there is racism and social strife, and things need to be done about it. But as we have seen recently with China's handling of SARS--keeping it a secret and not disseminating information in the Media and clamping down on travel, there are reasons why a free and open media like we have here in the US WITHOUT GOVERNMENT CENSORSHIP are helpful.
If you're not suggesting exit and repatriation, then please elaborate.
Lastly, in response to your other comment, if we were in China, where the Han Nation is the largest ethincity, you would probably find a lot of Hans who are in managerial positions and are incompetant, just like Caucasians are the majority here and in Europe, and thus you see plenty of my ethnic group who've been promoted by the Peter Principle. Show some sense, man!!!
If you're suggesting that Asian Americans should leave the USA and repatriate to nations of ancestry, I think you are being delusional. For one thing, Asian Americans have been here to long and are too acculturated to "go back." That would be like me trying to move to Scotland or Sweden and trying to make a place for myself there. It wouldn't work long term.
For another, I think that doing that would be like "admitting defeat" on some level--rather than sticking it out and living the dream of equality and prosperity, which I personally believe is possible for all Americans who are willing to work. I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses though--there are problems here, there is racism and social strife, and things need to be done about it. But as we have seen recently with China's handling of SARS--keeping it a secret and not disseminating information in the Media and clamping down on travel, there are reasons why a free and open media like we have here in the US WITHOUT GOVERNMENT CENSORSHIP are helpful.
If you're not suggesting exit and repatriation, then please elaborate.
Lastly, in response to your other comment, if we were in China, where the Han Nation is the largest ethincity, you would probably find a lot of Hans who are in managerial positions and are incompetant, just like Caucasians are the majority here and in Europe, and thus you see plenty of my ethnic group who've been promoted by the Peter Principle. Show some sense, man!!!
patjz1,
Yes, my college education in the U.S. was in science/technology field. But, as much as I welcome an opportunity to go back to my motherland, Korea, to contribute what little skills I posess, there are some very legitimate and basic issues such as
1. Economic condition in an Asian country - that is, how the job market is in the current global recession. I can't imagine that it's any better than it is in the U.S. or any other Western nation. Japan is still trying to climb out of their long recession and, in fact, I've recently read an article where some Japanese men are themselves leaving Japan to look for jobs. Korea may be doing a bit better, but probably not by much. I once read another article that told of many Koreans who got their Ph.D.s from some of the best universities in the U.S. who still could not find jobs after returning to Korea.
2. Social environment - an AA like me who grew up in the U.S. and have never even made a return visit to his motherland would be expected to face some tough adjustments to the societal norms, including the general corporate structure of an Asian company that hires him. In fact, I believe nepotism and networking is still so crucial in Korea for even getting a foot into an employer's door, that if an AA does not know anyone personally in his field of training who can help him get even a job interview with typicallly a company that acquaintance works for, then it will take him much longer to get a viable, long-term job.
3. Cultural environment - again, an AA like me would be in for some real culture shock and major adjustments to the lifestyles of a motherland which he has left in childhood and became Americanized in customs and values. It would depend on an individual, but I expect there to be a period of adjustments, which may be longer for someone like me.
I would like to hear from anyone who is familiar with the situations and conditions of those AAs who will return, are returning, or have returned to their motherlands to live and work, either from his own experience or from the experiences of others who told him.
However, I believe that for an AA like me a better option, at least initially, would be to work for a U.S. branch or subsidiary of a company headquartered in his motherland or in another Asian country. Once he becomes familiar and comfortable with the Asian corporate culture, he may be better prepared to make the transition of relocating to his motherland to work and live.
| QUOTE |
| What do you do? What do you study? Is it an area in which Asia is behind? (Science/Tech etc.) Then make an effort to bring those skills to your country of origin. Look for that job in Seoul/Beijing/Tokyo instead of SF/NYC/Chicago and bring what you've learned to Asia and try to become a conduit for the transfer of knowledge to Asia. |
Yes, my college education in the U.S. was in science/technology field. But, as much as I welcome an opportunity to go back to my motherland, Korea, to contribute what little skills I posess, there are some very legitimate and basic issues such as
1. Economic condition in an Asian country - that is, how the job market is in the current global recession. I can't imagine that it's any better than it is in the U.S. or any other Western nation. Japan is still trying to climb out of their long recession and, in fact, I've recently read an article where some Japanese men are themselves leaving Japan to look for jobs. Korea may be doing a bit better, but probably not by much. I once read another article that told of many Koreans who got their Ph.D.s from some of the best universities in the U.S. who still could not find jobs after returning to Korea.
2. Social environment - an AA like me who grew up in the U.S. and have never even made a return visit to his motherland would be expected to face some tough adjustments to the societal norms, including the general corporate structure of an Asian company that hires him. In fact, I believe nepotism and networking is still so crucial in Korea for even getting a foot into an employer's door, that if an AA does not know anyone personally in his field of training who can help him get even a job interview with typicallly a company that acquaintance works for, then it will take him much longer to get a viable, long-term job.
3. Cultural environment - again, an AA like me would be in for some real culture shock and major adjustments to the lifestyles of a motherland which he has left in childhood and became Americanized in customs and values. It would depend on an individual, but I expect there to be a period of adjustments, which may be longer for someone like me.
I would like to hear from anyone who is familiar with the situations and conditions of those AAs who will return, are returning, or have returned to their motherlands to live and work, either from his own experience or from the experiences of others who told him.
However, I believe that for an AA like me a better option, at least initially, would be to work for a U.S. branch or subsidiary of a company headquartered in his motherland or in another Asian country. Once he becomes familiar and comfortable with the Asian corporate culture, he may be better prepared to make the transition of relocating to his motherland to work and live.
Hank,
There is another example of crazed propoganda of SARS that just pops in the media about the dark evil secretive PRC that caused SARS. SARS is contained in China, because China central government responded in a very effective manner. Canada still has SARS, yet I don't see the media hyper-sensitive to whatever might be lacking in that socialist state.
Now we have Monkeypox in the Mid-west anyone hyper-critical on the eating habits and hygiene of people in the mid-west.
You never see in the media how AIDS was mishandled during the Reagan and Bush years. Where ultra-conservative fearing to acknowledge a gay or drug using population in our country basically restricted any research or news about AIDS. It wasn't until the Clinton Era that the USA finally started up realistic AIDS research. Now that we are in the Bush II era, do you know what kind of nonsense researchers now have to go through in the USA to get federal grant money these days.
A good friend of mine the other day had an proposal returned to him because the board was uncomfortable with the fact he was researching AIDS in a "homosexual" population that participated in "anal sex." He has to rewrite the abstract to get grant money. He may even have to outright lie and say he investigation AIDS in people that use rectal inserted medicine. All to be inline with Bush's conservative policies.
However, this type of news never gets media attention. I don't see these headlines in Chinese newspapers. No one is going around digging dirt like the US counterparts. If it wasn't for 9/11, I'm pretty sure the past few years our government and media would be digging dirt on China to drive our population into some sort hysteria that China was going to take over the world, as it was doing prior to 9/11.
I'm so sick of the fact we spend good USA dollars for an entire institution to dig dirt on Human Rights Issues in another country. When we could be spending the money correcting various Human Rights Issues in our country.
There is another example of crazed propoganda of SARS that just pops in the media about the dark evil secretive PRC that caused SARS. SARS is contained in China, because China central government responded in a very effective manner. Canada still has SARS, yet I don't see the media hyper-sensitive to whatever might be lacking in that socialist state.
Now we have Monkeypox in the Mid-west anyone hyper-critical on the eating habits and hygiene of people in the mid-west.
You never see in the media how AIDS was mishandled during the Reagan and Bush years. Where ultra-conservative fearing to acknowledge a gay or drug using population in our country basically restricted any research or news about AIDS. It wasn't until the Clinton Era that the USA finally started up realistic AIDS research. Now that we are in the Bush II era, do you know what kind of nonsense researchers now have to go through in the USA to get federal grant money these days.
A good friend of mine the other day had an proposal returned to him because the board was uncomfortable with the fact he was researching AIDS in a "homosexual" population that participated in "anal sex." He has to rewrite the abstract to get grant money. He may even have to outright lie and say he investigation AIDS in people that use rectal inserted medicine. All to be inline with Bush's conservative policies.
However, this type of news never gets media attention. I don't see these headlines in Chinese newspapers. No one is going around digging dirt like the US counterparts. If it wasn't for 9/11, I'm pretty sure the past few years our government and media would be digging dirt on China to drive our population into some sort hysteria that China was going to take over the world, as it was doing prior to 9/11.
I'm so sick of the fact we spend good USA dollars for an entire institution to dig dirt on Human Rights Issues in another country. When we could be spending the money correcting various Human Rights Issues in our country.
ACD,
But it's an old trick in the politics book, isn't it? It's much easier to divert the public's attention from the domestic problem by pointing finger at a foreign country's similar or same problem, rather than investing money, effort, and time to combat it at home.
| QUOTE |
| I'm so sick of the fact we spend good USA dollars for an entire institution to dig dirt on Human Rights Issues in another country. When we could be spending the money correcting various Human Rights Issues in our country. |
But it's an old trick in the politics book, isn't it? It's much easier to divert the public's attention from the domestic problem by pointing finger at a foreign country's similar or same problem, rather than investing money, effort, and time to combat it at home.
Outofeast,
But it is just ridiculous. I read a lot of periodicals and the I see a lot of time the same by line or plugs they use everytime they talk about China. Usually to accentuate various problems in China that might have nothing to do with the article. Then when you talk to collegues they just repeat the same lines, and have no futher information on how that conclusion was drawn.
Like Hank is a pretty intelligent guy posting on goldsea, yet he like everyone else plugs in SARS and ties it to the fact PRC government "hid" this information. Not even thinking about how epidemics are even identified. But automatically concludes PRC "hid" information. Has nothing to do with the fact the outbreak occurred in rural area where it might be difficult to track an outbreak. Or the fact China was recently admitted into the WHO and are not the most up-to-date on WHO procedures. Or the fact a majority of WHO investigator spoke crappy Chinese.
But in the media where SARS is still occuring in Canada. I don't see words like "hid" in articles on how the Canadian government behavior, which was very similar to China at this point.
Just seems like intellectual brainwashing in the media. I see plugs on China like Tibet and human rights issues in almost every CNN article. Why don't I see similar plugs that for European countries. Like England, still has a defacto class system. Or USA the largest population per capita living in prisions with colonies in Guam and PR. Or Canada still having an unresolved civil war between Francaphones and Anglophones.
But it is just ridiculous. I read a lot of periodicals and the I see a lot of time the same by line or plugs they use everytime they talk about China. Usually to accentuate various problems in China that might have nothing to do with the article. Then when you talk to collegues they just repeat the same lines, and have no futher information on how that conclusion was drawn.
Like Hank is a pretty intelligent guy posting on goldsea, yet he like everyone else plugs in SARS and ties it to the fact PRC government "hid" this information. Not even thinking about how epidemics are even identified. But automatically concludes PRC "hid" information. Has nothing to do with the fact the outbreak occurred in rural area where it might be difficult to track an outbreak. Or the fact China was recently admitted into the WHO and are not the most up-to-date on WHO procedures. Or the fact a majority of WHO investigator spoke crappy Chinese.
But in the media where SARS is still occuring in Canada. I don't see words like "hid" in articles on how the Canadian government behavior, which was very similar to China at this point.
Just seems like intellectual brainwashing in the media. I see plugs on China like Tibet and human rights issues in almost every CNN article. Why don't I see similar plugs that for European countries. Like England, still has a defacto class system. Or USA the largest population per capita living in prisions with colonies in Guam and PR. Or Canada still having an unresolved civil war between Francaphones and Anglophones.
| QUOTE |
| But it's an old trick in the politics book, isn't it? It's much easier to divert the public's attention from the domestic problem by pointing finger at a foreign country's similar or same problem, rather than investing money, effort, and time to combat it at home |
While I agree with dealing with domestic problems, why shouldn't countries comment on how it is elsewhere? Aren't comparing and contrasting tools of logic? Should our government and newspapers ignore what is occurring in China, Austria, etc?
| QUOTE |
| But it is just ridiculous. I read a lot of periodicals and the I see a lot of time the same by line or plugs they use everytime they talk about China. Usually to accentuate various problems in China that might have nothing to do with the article. Then when you talk to collegues they just repeat the same lines, and have no futher information on how that conclusion was drawn. |
Care to give some examples?
| QUOTE |
| Like Hank is a pretty intelligent guy posting on goldsea, yet he like everyone else plugs in SARS and ties it to the fact PRC government "hid" this information. Not even thinking about how epidemics are even identified. But automatically concludes PRC "hid" information. Has nothing to do with the fact the outbreak occurred in rural area where it might be difficult to track an outbreak. Or the fact China was recently admitted into the WHO and are not the most up-to-date on WHO procedures. Or the fact a majority of WHO investigator spoke crappy Chinese. |
I agree that SARS is overblown, but I believe in criticism when criticism is due. The Chinese government deserves criticism for it's early handling of SARS. I am not anti-China, but like all countries, it needs to be viewed critically. Are you saying that China didn't hide anything ?
| QUOTE |
| But in the media where SARS is still occuring in Canada. I don't see words like "hid" in articles on how the Canadian government behavior, which was very similar to China at this point. |
Please, tell me more. Canada shouldn't be excused from criticism either.
| QUOTE |
| Just seems like intellectual brainwashing in the media. I see plugs on China like Tibet and human rights issues in almost every CNN article. Why don't I see similar plugs that for European countries. Like England, still has a defacto class system. Or USA the largest population per capita living in prisions with colonies in Guam and PR. Or Canada still having an unresolved civil war between Francaphones and Anglophones. |
Well, compared to England, Canada, and the U.S., China still has a way to go in domestic human rights, and SARS is rather current and it does deal with human rights, e.g. lying to one's populace. Anyway, I wish China and all its inhabitants all the best in the future.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-chn/index
AC, I totally agree with you on the matter of this smear campaign against China by the U.S. media/gov. I can still remember the good old days when all those "people-loving" Christians and Conservatives were breaking out the champagne bottles and actually celebrating AIDS... Not to mention dragging their feet and misinforming the public on the matter for years. And now Americans have the gall to even criticize China for SARS?!? Sickening.
It'll be interesting to find out what world opinion really is of the American press. It's really no different than Al-Jazeara when you think about it. As if we're supposed to believe Al-Jazeara is synonymous with "biased news" or something.
And Honkypox? LOLOLOL. Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch. 
Payback time.
***
Chuchu, why not start by criticizing the U.S.. After all, we're supposedly in a position to change things here... Oh, I forgot, We're all immigrants, and we should just keep our mouths shut, right?
And regarding human rights here in the US., let's just say it has more to do with selling promises and maintaining a good image to the public. That is, as long as the government doesn't torture anyone, it's perfectly OK to put as many people in prison as possible, prosecute people in monkey-trials, and allow prisoners to torture each other with impunity. Hmmm. very interesting, so government inaction resulting in human rights abuses is perfectly acceptable? I think not.
***
Well back to the topic of pride vs. supremacy... Pride is perfectly fine when it isn't completely mixed up with constantly dumping on people of other ethnicies and races. So I don't know how or why anyone would get upset over the chinese and koreans, for example, showing pride when they haven't -- for the most part -- done squat to others. But for WASPs and their ilk, it's another thing entirely, because "pride" (unless it was pride for a particular country of origin, like Ireland or whatever) had almost ALWAYS been used as an excuse to screw over and continue to screw over others. Very un-christian-like, I might add.
It'll be interesting to find out what world opinion really is of the American press. It's really no different than Al-Jazeara when you think about it. As if we're supposed to believe Al-Jazeara is synonymous with "biased news" or something.
And Honkypox? LOLOLOL. Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch.
Payback time.***
Chuchu, why not start by criticizing the U.S.. After all, we're supposedly in a position to change things here... Oh, I forgot, We're all immigrants, and we should just keep our mouths shut, right?
And regarding human rights here in the US., let's just say it has more to do with selling promises and maintaining a good image to the public. That is, as long as the government doesn't torture anyone, it's perfectly OK to put as many people in prison as possible, prosecute people in monkey-trials, and allow prisoners to torture each other with impunity. Hmmm. very interesting, so government inaction resulting in human rights abuses is perfectly acceptable? I think not.
***
Well back to the topic of pride vs. supremacy... Pride is perfectly fine when it isn't completely mixed up with constantly dumping on people of other ethnicies and races. So I don't know how or why anyone would get upset over the chinese and koreans, for example, showing pride when they haven't -- for the most part -- done squat to others. But for WASPs and their ilk, it's another thing entirely, because "pride" (unless it was pride for a particular country of origin, like Ireland or whatever) had almost ALWAYS been used as an excuse to screw over and continue to screw over others. Very un-christian-like, I might add.
| QUOTE |
| Chuchu, why not start by criticizing the U.S.. After all, we're supposedly in a position to change things here... Oh, I forgot, We're all immigrants, and we should just keep our mouths shut, right? |
The U.S. does deserve a lot of criticism, don't misinterpt me, but AC seems to be white-washing the early handling of SARS by the Chinese government. Do you know who Noam Chomksy is Kimchee? I'm just curious. Anyway, I don't quite follow you at the end.
| QUOTE |
| And regarding human rights here in the US., let's just say it has more to do with selling promises and maintaining a good image to the public. That is, as long as the government doesn't torture anyone, it's perfectly OK to put as many people in prison as possible, prosecute people in monkey-trials, and allow prisoners to torture each other with impunity. Hmmm. very interesting, so government inaction resulting in human rights abuses is perfectly acceptable? I think not. |
I didn't say the U.S. was perfect, far from it in fact; it has also been quite inconsistent with its policies. However, take a look at the U.S. constitution, it's a damn good document if I ever saw one, I just wish the current government upheld it more often, i.e. internment of Arabs in U.S. I'm no expert on China's current government, but does it have any similar human rights laws?
BTW, are you talking about the Scopes trial from the early 20th century? If so, you should really get up to date. At least talk about indefinite internment of people at Guantanamo and the like
Anyway, to continue the topic.
| QUOTE |
| Well back to the topic of pride vs. supremacy... Pride is perfectly fine when it isn't completely mixed up with constantly dumping on people of other ethnicies and races. So I for WASPs and their ilk, it's another thing entirely, because "pride" (unless it was pride for a particular country of origin, like Ireland or whatever) had almost ALWAYS been used as don't know how or why anyone would get upset over the chinese and koreans, for example, showing pride when they haven't -- for the most part -- done squat to others. But an excuse to screw over and continue to screw over others. Very un-christian-like, I might add. |
I get tired of people saying how great the U.S. is, or how great X country is, and how every other country sucks. Also, are you referring to Neo-Nazis and the KKK or do you have something else in mind?
Edit:
Last paragraph should read:
I get tired of people saying how great the U.S. is, or how great X country is, and how every other country sucks. Yes, the U.S/China/Uganda/ is better in some respects, but not all. Also, are you referring to Neo-Nazis and the KKK or do you have something else in mind?
Last paragraph should read:
I get tired of people saying how great the U.S. is, or how great X country is, and how every other country sucks. Yes, the U.S/China/Uganda/ is better in some respects, but not all. Also, are you referring to Neo-Nazis and the KKK or do you have something else in mind?
Edit: Sorry, kimchi, not kimchee. Goldsea will not always allow me to edit my posts.
Chuchu,
Yeah I'm aware of Noem and his political slant. Actually this is like the second or third reference to Mr. Chomsky in a post directed at me. Hmmmm, so what exactly are you getting at? hehe.
I never said anything bad about the constitution, in fact I always believed in it and considered myself a libertarian for a while (in a theoretical sense, not a practical one). But the application of the constitution throughout American history has, and will continue to be, horribly flawed. So much so that it seems to mean very little now. Funny how often "some folks," all of a sudden, speaky no freaky englishy when it comes to obeying simple laws and the constitution. THAT's what bugs me. Honestly how does "freedom of speech" coexist with "slavery?" How does "freedom of speech" coexist with the blacklistings, political & racial persecution that HAVE happened quite often in this country? I'd say that when "pride" warps the laws then it's gone too damn far. So, chuchu, does reading proper English to interpret and apply laws as they were intended somehow make me a "Noem Chomsky?" If so, then the United States is in a sadder shape than I previously thought.
Why did you bring up Neo-Nazi's and the KKK? Why not toss UFO's and Peter Pan into the discussion as well? Equally relevant BTW, but not things I concern myself with. I'm talking about general attitudes held by the American public (whites) and the actions of the media, government, corporations and institutions in this country that reflect and/or mold those (often childish) attitudes. Which all comes back to the issue of the US media/gov't constantly smearing or bashing China along with numerous other nations and cultures, gross inconsistencies in applying simple goddamn laws, and foreign policies that have caused a great deal of problems at the expense of others (of course). All because of what? Pride? No wonder the U.S. gov't "acts" like a ten year old child.
Scopes trial? Early 20th Century? No. I'm talking about now and throughout America's short history. Why do you ask? Any how, I think part of the problem is that there's been sooooooooo much inconsistency and hypocrisy in the past, that it's become ingrained into society as being 'normal'... depending on which side of the rabbit hole you're on
Oh yeah and one more thing, I haven't read any of Mr. Chomsky's work, or much of what other political 'experts' have written... I hate being spoon fed my own damn opinions.
Yeah I'm aware of Noem and his political slant. Actually this is like the second or third reference to Mr. Chomsky in a post directed at me. Hmmmm, so what exactly are you getting at? hehe.
I never said anything bad about the constitution, in fact I always believed in it and considered myself a libertarian for a while (in a theoretical sense, not a practical one). But the application of the constitution throughout American history has, and will continue to be, horribly flawed. So much so that it seems to mean very little now. Funny how often "some folks," all of a sudden, speaky no freaky englishy when it comes to obeying simple laws and the constitution. THAT's what bugs me. Honestly how does "freedom of speech" coexist with "slavery?" How does "freedom of speech" coexist with the blacklistings, political & racial persecution that HAVE happened quite often in this country? I'd say that when "pride" warps the laws then it's gone too damn far. So, chuchu, does reading proper English to interpret and apply laws as they were intended somehow make me a "Noem Chomsky?" If so, then the United States is in a sadder shape than I previously thought.
Why did you bring up Neo-Nazi's and the KKK? Why not toss UFO's and Peter Pan into the discussion as well? Equally relevant BTW, but not things I concern myself with. I'm talking about general attitudes held by the American public (whites) and the actions of the media, government, corporations and institutions in this country that reflect and/or mold those (often childish) attitudes. Which all comes back to the issue of the US media/gov't constantly smearing or bashing China along with numerous other nations and cultures, gross inconsistencies in applying simple goddamn laws, and foreign policies that have caused a great deal of problems at the expense of others (of course). All because of what? Pride? No wonder the U.S. gov't "acts" like a ten year old child.
Scopes trial? Early 20th Century? No. I'm talking about now and throughout America's short history. Why do you ask? Any how, I think part of the problem is that there's been sooooooooo much inconsistency and hypocrisy in the past, that it's become ingrained into society as being 'normal'... depending on which side of the rabbit hole you're on
Oh yeah and one more thing, I haven't read any of Mr. Chomsky's work, or much of what other political 'experts' have written... I hate being spoon fed my own damn opinions.
Kimchi,
I bring up Chomsky because you and he have a similar mind when it comes to U.S. foreign policy. Anyway, reading political works isn't always about being spoon-fed ideas. I read them for the same reason I go to message boards, to hear other people's ideas and beliefs.
I too agree about past inconsistancies, it will never be completely rectified. However, we cannot afford to live completely it at the expense of the future. Attempts should be made to help the scars that still linger though.
I bring up Chomsky because you and he have a similar mind when it comes to U.S. foreign policy. Anyway, reading political works isn't always about being spoon-fed ideas. I read them for the same reason I go to message boards, to hear other people's ideas and beliefs.
I too agree about past inconsistancies, it will never be completely rectified. However, we cannot afford to live completely it at the expense of the future. Attempts should be made to help the scars that still linger though.
AC Dropout:
Allow me to clarify something. I am not criticizing the PRC's entire handling of SARS. What I am criticizing is how they kept a lid on it early on and didn't take action to contain travel on it sooner. I'm not blaming the PRC for SARS nor am I calling it a PLA Biological Weapon. What I am saying is China SHOULD HAVE been MORE FORTHCOMING on SARS earlier on which could have helped slow its spread.
As for Canada--I am not happy with how the Canadian Ministry of Health handled it either. I think the government controlled CBC did everything they could to put a positive spin on their handling of the situation because Toronto is their main tourism destination during the summertime and the Canadian Government didn't want to loose too much revenue from tourism in Toronto. In fact the Health Minister for Canada knew about 2 or 3 new SARS cases THE VERY DAY he argued with the WHO to take the travel alert off of Toronto. In my opinion, that is hiding the truth and is just as wrong.
Lastly, this Monkeypox outbreak in the midwest is not entirely a surprise given how little many doctors know about our indigenous wildlife and the diseases they carry. It doesn't suprise me that some hayseed who was probably trying to cherry bomb a prairie dog hole got bit and caught something nasty. Once again, there was stupidity and mishandling of this by the various health boards in Wisconsin and other states where this problem has arisen.
Allow me to clarify something. I am not criticizing the PRC's entire handling of SARS. What I am criticizing is how they kept a lid on it early on and didn't take action to contain travel on it sooner. I'm not blaming the PRC for SARS nor am I calling it a PLA Biological Weapon. What I am saying is China SHOULD HAVE been MORE FORTHCOMING on SARS earlier on which could have helped slow its spread.
As for Canada--I am not happy with how the Canadian Ministry of Health handled it either. I think the government controlled CBC did everything they could to put a positive spin on their handling of the situation because Toronto is their main tourism destination during the summertime and the Canadian Government didn't want to loose too much revenue from tourism in Toronto. In fact the Health Minister for Canada knew about 2 or 3 new SARS cases THE VERY DAY he argued with the WHO to take the travel alert off of Toronto. In my opinion, that is hiding the truth and is just as wrong.
Lastly, this Monkeypox outbreak in the midwest is not entirely a surprise given how little many doctors know about our indigenous wildlife and the diseases they carry. It doesn't suprise me that some hayseed who was probably trying to cherry bomb a prairie dog hole got bit and caught something nasty. Once again, there was stupidity and mishandling of this by the various health boards in Wisconsin and other states where this problem has arisen.
Kimichi, about the constitution, black people, native americans, and asians weren't even considered human when it was being drafted. and the " forefathers" had no idea of the influx of other people from other coutnries coming here.
America was considered a place where the rich could come to get richer. i think we all know what they did to the native americans. this country was founded by the greedy.
when britian saw how good the people had it hear, they came back and reminded the americans that this country relaly belonged to them. So they had a revolutionary war.
All societies dating back to the beginning of time had wars over land and power.
the thing is that older countries like china and japan and africa abandoned massive wars (on a large scale) over land thousands of years before america was founded.
Probably because china and japan and africa didnt have much land to fight over.
if you want to blame someone blame the romans. British society and American society is created heavily on roman themes of conquering and colonizing. there were other empires which did the same before the romans. but those who write the history books would have us believe that Roman philosohy was the first philosophy and was the best philosophy.
The british took the roman structure and began colonizing and controlling the world all over again. Currently military philosophy comes from and promotes genocide. it doesnt even care about being the victor, even though victory is used alot. I mean, how else are you going to convince woung people that its good to get maimed or killed for rich people who wouldnt do the same for them?
You think bush would go out and face bullets and terrible things for the troops who are over in iraq. Would any leader accept the same risks? No. thats why leaders are a bad thing to have because they get to sit back and let the young massacre themselves.
Todays tool to control people is by spreading anacrhy. Its the simple philosophy that if everyone is in chaos no one can challenege the current system. The Sars scare was used to get americans afraid of asia. Fear breeds hate and hate breeds war.
But even bush realizes he cant fight two wars at one time. So, he settles for destabilizing chinese economy. investors are a feckless lot. they pull their investments at the slightest hint of trouble.
I'll be honest, i was so angry at the handling of the news form china. i saw the racism of the american news media and was just sad.
America was considered a place where the rich could come to get richer. i think we all know what they did to the native americans. this country was founded by the greedy.
when britian saw how good the people had it hear, they came back and reminded the americans that this country relaly belonged to them. So they had a revolutionary war.
All societies dating back to the beginning of time had wars over land and power.
the thing is that older countries like china and japan and africa abandoned massive wars (on a large scale) over land thousands of years before america was founded.
Probably because china and japan and africa didnt have much land to fight over.
if you want to blame someone blame the romans. British society and American society is created heavily on roman themes of conquering and colonizing. there were other empires which did the same before the romans. but those who write the history books would have us believe that Roman philosohy was the first philosophy and was the best philosophy.
The british took the roman structure and began colonizing and controlling the world all over again. Currently military philosophy comes from and promotes genocide. it doesnt even care about being the victor, even though victory is used alot. I mean, how else are you going to convince woung people that its good to get maimed or killed for rich people who wouldnt do the same for them?
You think bush would go out and face bullets and terrible things for the troops who are over in iraq. Would any leader accept the same risks? No. thats why leaders are a bad thing to have because they get to sit back and let the young massacre themselves.
Todays tool to control people is by spreading anacrhy. Its the simple philosophy that if everyone is in chaos no one can challenege the current system. The Sars scare was used to get americans afraid of asia. Fear breeds hate and hate breeds war.
But even bush realizes he cant fight two wars at one time. So, he settles for destabilizing chinese economy. investors are a feckless lot. they pull their investments at the slightest hint of trouble.
I'll be honest, i was so angry at the handling of the news form china. i saw the racism of the american news media and was just sad.
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