I've heard the term "sell-out" mentioned thousands of times. People will also throw in,"twinkie", "banana?, etc. However, I have never heard these terms defined properly. What exactly is a sell-out? Can't a person decide who he/she wants to be? Is there a certain way White/Chinese/Black/Japanese/etc. people act? Are there unspoken standards?
What do you think?
Full Version: Sell-out?
Well, a banana or twinkie is an Asian who acts 100% white (yellow on outside, white on inside). And well, I used to be one until I hit college and saw the depths of racism in the Midwest (and South).
I choose to marry someone of my own ethnicity but I know I can only live my own life and such. I figure worrying about my own life instead of someone else's is more productive, though it would disturb me if like the majority of Asians were marrying non-Asians.
I choose to marry someone of my own ethnicity but I know I can only live my own life and such. I figure worrying about my own life instead of someone else's is more productive, though it would disturb me if like the majority of Asians were marrying non-Asians.
I get that flak from "my people", too, and it's because of the way that I was raised: They think that I'm "not Jewish enough". It's one reason why I rarely date Jewish guys: I'm sick of the flak. (We don't have a word like "banana" or "Oreo". The word that comes closest in context is "Yekke", which simply means "Geman Jew"; however, in that context, it means a Jewish person who is very assimilated into the mainstream culture, as the German Jews were prior to the time of the Nazis.)
Ironically, to everyone else, I'm some "exotic Jewess". But the Jewish guys think that I act like a "shiksa" (Yiddish for "Gentile woman"). That's one reason why I like ABC fellows: It's just like dating a Jewish guy, only without the Jewish "baggage".
Ironically, to everyone else, I'm some "exotic Jewess". But the Jewish guys think that I act like a "shiksa" (Yiddish for "Gentile woman"). That's one reason why I like ABC fellows: It's just like dating a Jewish guy, only without the Jewish "baggage".
I define sell out as an Asian who is embarassed of his ethnicity or his looks or his parents or anything related to being Asian. I used to dye my hair, act white, being really embarassed of being Asian.
I used to be that way, for 10 years of my life. But now I am changing. It's too late for any one of us and I really believe we should impart this knowledge to the younger generation.
I used to be that way, for 10 years of my life. But now I am changing. It's too late for any one of us and I really believe we should impart this knowledge to the younger generation.
I would like to think that individuals of mixed heritages or cultures could be happy and proud to belong to all of them. I am Chinese, Canadian, and American, and I feel pretty comfortable calling myself any of those, or just saying that I'm a combination of all of them (it's not particularly awkward. Most people I get to know, of any ethnicity, don't think twice about it, and those who do tend to be insecure about their own heritages which causes them to question others who aren't as "hardcore."). Then again, talking about my ethnicity is not usually the first thing I would tell someone anyway - I don't find it particularly useful to identify completely with a culture as a label. Although occasionally in the past someone might wonder why I don't spend more time with a particular group (usually an Asian group), I would simply tell them that I like to be a part of everything I enjoy: I'd like to take the best of each culture and incorporate those aspects into my life. There's certainly a lot of pitfalls to Chinese, Canadian, and American cultures, and why should I have to embrace those as part of my life and personality? I think that anyone who is going to call you a "sellout", "banana", "twinkie", "oreo", "Yekke", or any other derogatory term has their own self-confidence issues to deal with; I would take his/her opinions/comments with less than a grain of salt.
So don't let others try to say what you are and aren't! Just enjoy who you are, and be what you enjoy being without caring what others think.
So don't let others try to say what you are and aren't! Just enjoy who you are, and be what you enjoy being without caring what others think.
Sell-out is a word used (obviously in a derogatory and sneering tone) to describe those asians who not only prefer not to associate themselves with their own kind, but actively dislike their own culture because it just isn't the mainstream culture. If you look on the "Gender Gap" threads, there are several people who I would term "sell-outs" because they openly state that they did not date within their own race because they wanted a "trophy white" or to be a trophy for a white.
One of my Coworkers is Jewish, but he refuses to keep Kosher at any time other than passover. Apparently when he was in college, he found that lobster, pork sausage, cheeseburgers and baby back ribs were too tasty not to be enjoyed. He's been called a Wannabe Wasp by his very Kosher and Shomer Shabbas sister though. It makes his eyes roll back a bit though.
hello,
what does wasp mean? I see this all the time. BTW
what does wasp mean? I see this all the time. BTW
WASP is an acronym for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.
"WASP-ness" is considered to be the "default value" for American culture. Of course, with the extensive current immigration from Latin American and East and South Asia, the whole notion of having "default values" for American culture is going the way of the dinosaur.
"WASP-ness" is considered to be the "default value" for American culture. Of course, with the extensive current immigration from Latin American and East and South Asia, the whole notion of having "default values" for American culture is going the way of the dinosaur.
OriginalCyn,
Is WASP-ness going the way of the dinosaur necessarily a bad thing? I have thought many times about how many good aspects WASP culture exist, even as there are many bad aspects of that same culture, too (as there is in ANY culture)
Is WASP-ness going the way of the dinosaur necessarily a bad thing? I have thought many times about how many good aspects WASP culture exist, even as there are many bad aspects of that same culture, too (as there is in ANY culture)
When I use the phrase "going the way of the dinosaur", I don't intend to imply that I find it to be a negative thing; it's only intended to be a colorful phrase meaning that a thing is going out of fashion.
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(thread drift)
There are SOME "cultural norms" (and I DON'T mean "WASP" cultural norms) that I DON'T like to see going out of fashion, though. One thing that I intensely dislike is the increasingly-prevalent idea that having an education is somehow "elitist". That attitude negatively impacts on many East Asians (whose own "cultural norm" would include a respect for education), who get dissed by members of other ethnic groups for taking their studies seriously.
Another thing that I don't like to see happening is the glamorization of criminal behavior. That has a long precendent, starting with the glamorization of the Sicilian Mafia, but it's picked up in popularity, and it now applies to criminal gangs (of all races), gang mentality, and certain aspects of the Hip-Hop culture. (Note: It's considered to be "poltically incorrect" to diss ANY PART of Hip-Hop culture, on the assumption that it's tantamount to being anti-Black. I happen to know LOTS of Blacks who decry the negative aspects of Hip-Hop culture, as well. [They're the same Blacks who get dissed by other Blacks for being educated; other Blacks accuse them of "trying to be White".] Hip-Hop culture is no longer exclusively Black, anyway: Young Whites, Latins, and Asians have all picked up on the Hip-Hop style, and--in some cases--the negative aspects of the culture, as well.)
=====
(thread drift)
There are SOME "cultural norms" (and I DON'T mean "WASP" cultural norms) that I DON'T like to see going out of fashion, though. One thing that I intensely dislike is the increasingly-prevalent idea that having an education is somehow "elitist". That attitude negatively impacts on many East Asians (whose own "cultural norm" would include a respect for education), who get dissed by members of other ethnic groups for taking their studies seriously.
Another thing that I don't like to see happening is the glamorization of criminal behavior. That has a long precendent, starting with the glamorization of the Sicilian Mafia, but it's picked up in popularity, and it now applies to criminal gangs (of all races), gang mentality, and certain aspects of the Hip-Hop culture. (Note: It's considered to be "poltically incorrect" to diss ANY PART of Hip-Hop culture, on the assumption that it's tantamount to being anti-Black. I happen to know LOTS of Blacks who decry the negative aspects of Hip-Hop culture, as well. [They're the same Blacks who get dissed by other Blacks for being educated; other Blacks accuse them of "trying to be White".] Hip-Hop culture is no longer exclusively Black, anyway: Young Whites, Latins, and Asians have all picked up on the Hip-Hop style, and--in some cases--the negative aspects of the culture, as well.)
OriginalCyn,
Sounds like you and I are on the same page regarding the evolution of our culture as we know it today.
While certainly there were tremendous injustices and unfairnesses in the past (a person like myself would probably not have the opportunities or acceptance I do had I been born in my father's generation) there was also greater respect for people as individuals, respect for authority (both by those under it and those who represented it) and in general, a respect for common sense.
Today is a very litigious society - I remember how my parents were always wary of other kids coming to play at our house - not because they were afraid of theft, but because they were afraid the kids would get hurt on our property and their parents would sue.
As you also mentioned - the Hip-Hop culture is glamorized, and a very strong aspect of that culture is the inner-city gang. As someone who has lost a cousin and a friend to gang violence, I know first-hand that there is nothing glamorous or exciting about avoiding certain eateries, bowling alleys, or clubs because you're afraid of running into the wrong people.
The other thing you mentioned was the devaluation of education. This is particularly true among minority groups (Asians excepted) and I find it depressing when I hear about talented kids who "act dumb" and achieve far below their potential for fear of losing social acceptance. Until the job I have now, almost all my co-workers were college grads, so naturally I thought all people believed that education is a good thing, even if for its own sake. However, I now work in a field where few of my co-workers are college grads, but it is nevertheless a high-paying field, so these people naturally have an aversion to higher education, scoffing at it as a waste of time and only for those who are too lazy to "get a real job." I try to tell them that even though they lucked out and landed a great job that didn't require a degree, their kids are going to grow up in a world where even relatively low-paying jobs will be filled with educated people. They don't listen - after all - I'm a rich boy whose momma and daddy sent to school to drink beer and party, right?
Sounds like you and I are on the same page regarding the evolution of our culture as we know it today.
While certainly there were tremendous injustices and unfairnesses in the past (a person like myself would probably not have the opportunities or acceptance I do had I been born in my father's generation) there was also greater respect for people as individuals, respect for authority (both by those under it and those who represented it) and in general, a respect for common sense.
Today is a very litigious society - I remember how my parents were always wary of other kids coming to play at our house - not because they were afraid of theft, but because they were afraid the kids would get hurt on our property and their parents would sue.
As you also mentioned - the Hip-Hop culture is glamorized, and a very strong aspect of that culture is the inner-city gang. As someone who has lost a cousin and a friend to gang violence, I know first-hand that there is nothing glamorous or exciting about avoiding certain eateries, bowling alleys, or clubs because you're afraid of running into the wrong people.
The other thing you mentioned was the devaluation of education. This is particularly true among minority groups (Asians excepted) and I find it depressing when I hear about talented kids who "act dumb" and achieve far below their potential for fear of losing social acceptance. Until the job I have now, almost all my co-workers were college grads, so naturally I thought all people believed that education is a good thing, even if for its own sake. However, I now work in a field where few of my co-workers are college grads, but it is nevertheless a high-paying field, so these people naturally have an aversion to higher education, scoffing at it as a waste of time and only for those who are too lazy to "get a real job." I try to tell them that even though they lucked out and landed a great job that didn't require a degree, their kids are going to grow up in a world where even relatively low-paying jobs will be filled with educated people. They don't listen - after all - I'm a rich boy whose momma and daddy sent to school to drink beer and party, right?
OriginalCyn:
I don't consider WASP culture to be the default culture for America by any stretch of the imagination. I really don't think most folks with any sense feel that way either.
The reason why I say this is that, unlike other Nations like Canada or France, we do NOT have a GOVERNMENT ministry or department of "Culture" which seeks to define or limit what it means to be an American. Given the large numbers of Roman Catholics and Jews who have been in the United States for multiple Generations--especially in the Northeast, Louisiana, Texas and California, WASP culture has not been the Default Culture for the US for a long time.
I think this is a Myth which was created by various TV shows aried during the 1950s and early 60s which seemed to stress WASPy Middle Class behavior as "Socially Normal." By the 1980s, I think most of this stuff had been torn down and we as a society had to take a long, hard look at ourselves as what we are--a mishmash of different poeple from around who somehow have to find a way to make and maintain ourselves as a nation.
There are some things which I think need to be promoted as common values to all Americans however, because they are going the way of the Nuclear Family in the US, and that is not good fpr us as a Nation or a Society. You've already mentioned some.
1. Value of Higher Education
2. Taking Responsiblity for your own Actions, including your mistakes, and not blaming others for your own failings, crimes or inability to succeed.
3. Taking Responsibility for the behavior of your Children and teaching them right from wrong.
4. Taking Responsibility to provide for the needs of your Children even at the expense of your own comfort (i.e. holding down and keeping a job to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table even if it means you can't go out drinking with your friends)
5. Teaching and living out the following values:
-It is wrong to lie
-It is wrong to steal from other people
-It is wrong to be jealous and hateful of others'
-It is wrong to disrespect your family
-It is wrong to cheat on your spouse if you are married
-It is wrong to commit murder, assault, battery, rape and harassment to others
6. Everyone needs to understand that we all have differences--physical and cultural--but these differences are good things and make us unique as a nation and society.
I'm not trying to suggest taking on some kind of WASP/Judeo-Christian nature, but some of these things I have mentioned are seen in religious texts of all major religions with good reason. Others of these things just plain make sense. However, our media glamourizes criminal behavior, slutty behavior and our politicians' (both Republicans and Democras) words and actions seem to tell us that lying, cheating and acting like total bastards and bitches are "okay" and "part of free speech." Sorry, but "Do what thou wilt" is a commandment found in one religious text nobody wants to claim unless you're just plain nuts--it comes from a book by a man named Anton LeVey--it's called the Satanic Bible.
Granted, Buddhists and Hindus don't believe in Hell, but given what LeVey was involved in, do you think that any of them would want to subscribe to that philosophy? I highly doubt it.
I don't consider WASP culture to be the default culture for America by any stretch of the imagination. I really don't think most folks with any sense feel that way either.
The reason why I say this is that, unlike other Nations like Canada or France, we do NOT have a GOVERNMENT ministry or department of "Culture" which seeks to define or limit what it means to be an American. Given the large numbers of Roman Catholics and Jews who have been in the United States for multiple Generations--especially in the Northeast, Louisiana, Texas and California, WASP culture has not been the Default Culture for the US for a long time.
I think this is a Myth which was created by various TV shows aried during the 1950s and early 60s which seemed to stress WASPy Middle Class behavior as "Socially Normal." By the 1980s, I think most of this stuff had been torn down and we as a society had to take a long, hard look at ourselves as what we are--a mishmash of different poeple from around who somehow have to find a way to make and maintain ourselves as a nation.
There are some things which I think need to be promoted as common values to all Americans however, because they are going the way of the Nuclear Family in the US, and that is not good fpr us as a Nation or a Society. You've already mentioned some.
1. Value of Higher Education
2. Taking Responsiblity for your own Actions, including your mistakes, and not blaming others for your own failings, crimes or inability to succeed.
3. Taking Responsibility for the behavior of your Children and teaching them right from wrong.
4. Taking Responsibility to provide for the needs of your Children even at the expense of your own comfort (i.e. holding down and keeping a job to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table even if it means you can't go out drinking with your friends)
5. Teaching and living out the following values:
-It is wrong to lie
-It is wrong to steal from other people
-It is wrong to be jealous and hateful of others'
-It is wrong to disrespect your family
-It is wrong to cheat on your spouse if you are married
-It is wrong to commit murder, assault, battery, rape and harassment to others
6. Everyone needs to understand that we all have differences--physical and cultural--but these differences are good things and make us unique as a nation and society.
I'm not trying to suggest taking on some kind of WASP/Judeo-Christian nature, but some of these things I have mentioned are seen in religious texts of all major religions with good reason. Others of these things just plain make sense. However, our media glamourizes criminal behavior, slutty behavior and our politicians' (both Republicans and Democras) words and actions seem to tell us that lying, cheating and acting like total bastards and bitches are "okay" and "part of free speech." Sorry, but "Do what thou wilt" is a commandment found in one religious text nobody wants to claim unless you're just plain nuts--it comes from a book by a man named Anton LeVey--it's called the Satanic Bible.
Granted, Buddhists and Hindus don't believe in Hell, but given what LeVey was involved in, do you think that any of them would want to subscribe to that philosophy? I highly doubt it.
Another thing that I don't like to see happening is the glamorization of criminal behavior. That has a long precendent, starting with the glamorization of the Sicilian Mafia, but it's picked up in popularity, and it now applies to criminal gangs (of all races), gang mentality, and certain aspects of the Hip-Hop culture. (Note: It's considered to be "poltically incorrect" to diss ANY PART of Hip-Hop culture, on the assumption that it's tantamount to being anti-Black. I happen to know LOTS of Blacks who decry the negative aspects of Hip-Hop culture, as well. [They're the same Blacks who get dissed by other Blacks for being educated; other Blacks accuse them of "trying to be White".] Hip-Hop culture is no longer exclusively Black, anyway: Young Whites, Latins, and Asians have all picked up on the Hip-Hop style, and--in some cases--the negative aspects of the culture, as well.)
==========================================================
On point OrigCyn
I would like to think that individuals of mixed heritages or cultures could be happy and proud to belong to all of them.
===========================================================
You would think that right I don't know I guess it's hard for some people so they reject themselves.(Or part) Am I correct.
I am Chinese, Canadian, and American, and I feel pretty comfortable calling myself any of those, or just saying that I'm a combination of all of them (it's not particularly awkward.
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Thats a healthier attitude for people to have.
Most people I get to know, of any ethnicity, don't think twice about it, and those who do tend to be insecure about their own heritages which causes them to question others who aren't as "hardcore.").
==================================================
Even though I am not of mixed heritage at least faceial feature wise. (we are all mixed to some extente)
Then again, talking about my ethnicity is not usually the first thing I would tell someone anyway - I don't find it particularly useful to identify completely with a culture as a label.
=======================================================
I can totally relate to this! I find most cultures intresting and I like to learn about them, I guess thats why I was in the Council for Unity in junior high
And hence my being here.
Although occasionally in the past someone might wonder why I don't spend more time with a particular group (usually an Asian group), I would simply tell them that I like to be a part of everything I enjoy: I'd like to take the best of each culture and incorporate those aspects into my life.
==========================================
Can we be friends! Lol
There's certainly a lot of pitfalls to Chinese, Canadian, and American cultures, and why should I have to embrace those as part of my life and personality? I think that anyone who is going to call you a "sellout", "banana", "twinkie", "oreo", "Yekke", or any other derogatory term has their own self-confidence issues to deal with; I would take his/her opinions/comments with less than a grain of salt.
So don't let others try to say what you are and aren't! Just enjoy who you are, and be what you enjoy being without caring what others think.
========================================================
Amen to that!
Tin is deffinetly in!
Averege Korean said:
I define sell out as an Asian who is embarassed of his ethnicity or his looks or his parents or anything related to being Asian. I used to dye my hair, act white, being really embarassed of being Asian.
I used to be that way, for 10 years of my life. But now I am changing. It's too late for any one of us and I really believe we should impart this knowledge to the younger generation.
===============================================================
Too be honest I don't like everything about my family either I hope my issues aren't too messed up!
==========================================================
On point OrigCyn
I would like to think that individuals of mixed heritages or cultures could be happy and proud to belong to all of them.
===========================================================
You would think that right I don't know I guess it's hard for some people so they reject themselves.(Or part) Am I correct.
I am Chinese, Canadian, and American, and I feel pretty comfortable calling myself any of those, or just saying that I'm a combination of all of them (it's not particularly awkward.
======================================================
Thats a healthier attitude for people to have.
Most people I get to know, of any ethnicity, don't think twice about it, and those who do tend to be insecure about their own heritages which causes them to question others who aren't as "hardcore.").
==================================================
Even though I am not of mixed heritage at least faceial feature wise. (we are all mixed to some extente)
Then again, talking about my ethnicity is not usually the first thing I would tell someone anyway - I don't find it particularly useful to identify completely with a culture as a label.
=======================================================
I can totally relate to this! I find most cultures intresting and I like to learn about them, I guess thats why I was in the Council for Unity in junior high
And hence my being here.
Although occasionally in the past someone might wonder why I don't spend more time with a particular group (usually an Asian group), I would simply tell them that I like to be a part of everything I enjoy: I'd like to take the best of each culture and incorporate those aspects into my life.
==========================================
Can we be friends! Lol
There's certainly a lot of pitfalls to Chinese, Canadian, and American cultures, and why should I have to embrace those as part of my life and personality? I think that anyone who is going to call you a "sellout", "banana", "twinkie", "oreo", "Yekke", or any other derogatory term has their own self-confidence issues to deal with; I would take his/her opinions/comments with less than a grain of salt.
So don't let others try to say what you are and aren't! Just enjoy who you are, and be what you enjoy being without caring what others think.
========================================================
Amen to that!
Tin is deffinetly in!
Averege Korean said:
I define sell out as an Asian who is embarassed of his ethnicity or his looks or his parents or anything related to being Asian. I used to dye my hair, act white, being really embarassed of being Asian.
I used to be that way, for 10 years of my life. But now I am changing. It's too late for any one of us and I really believe we should impart this knowledge to the younger generation.
===============================================================
Too be honest I don't like everything about my family either I hope my issues aren't too messed up!
I have heard that B.S all my life that I'm not black enough. It's really just a small mind trying to put you in a box don't listen to that.
Your people what ever it may be have been on this earth for a long time their culture has been and change many times I'm sure.
Im African Irish and Native American mix I said this to a guy in high school once and he said that's why. I say that's why what? He said "That's why you act that way?"
What is that. A friend sometime later said the same thing to me. I said to him my people existed all long time before gangsta rap and will along time after it. He just said I didn't understand what It was to be black.
He fails to realize that I simply didn't place my self in the hype of self pity and a role of the victim that to many of these guys do now always blaming everyone else. I listen to chuck when he said don't believe the hype it's to bad that most of it comes from rap now. Your right it isn't P.C. to say anything against rap but Im sorry it really stupid now. (Note when I say rap I don't mean Hip hop but they rarly play hip hop on the radio or on TV)
This isn't just black people I've had many friends of different groups creeds and races and it never fails this I'm a victim whether it's the government, their parents, society bla blah blah. It's pathetic.
I consider my people not by the color of their skin but how it use to be in african(and still is) and other parts of the word where skin can't be the dividing line. I choose my people by their thoughts belief system and ideals because these are the things that make a culture not just Im a color so I belong here. I think my ancestors the tribal ones especially would laugh at this notion they would say do they believe as you do? Do they pray to the same God? Do they give respect to the spirits as you Do they respect the people as you? Do they have a system of believe as you? A code of honor like you? No then how can they be your people.
Your people are those who believe as you do. It's that simple. Color has nothing to do with it. Culture is alot of things role together it art religion manners etc etc you people should do the same or at least similiar or their not your people.
That's like saying a Mongolian and a Thai are the same culture just cause they come from asia. The same is true with blacks, whites and everyone else. In america they try to package everything neatly cause you can't really get a good census on people by just how they think. It not like in the past when you could look at the garbs and know they are of a differnt tribe so it's easier to go by skin color, This basically dismisses the past up to about a few hundred years but also I think disrespect all my ancestor that came before me to make me but that just me.
Your people what ever it may be have been on this earth for a long time their culture has been and change many times I'm sure.
Im African Irish and Native American mix I said this to a guy in high school once and he said that's why. I say that's why what? He said "That's why you act that way?"
What is that. A friend sometime later said the same thing to me. I said to him my people existed all long time before gangsta rap and will along time after it. He just said I didn't understand what It was to be black.
He fails to realize that I simply didn't place my self in the hype of self pity and a role of the victim that to many of these guys do now always blaming everyone else. I listen to chuck when he said don't believe the hype it's to bad that most of it comes from rap now. Your right it isn't P.C. to say anything against rap but Im sorry it really stupid now. (Note when I say rap I don't mean Hip hop but they rarly play hip hop on the radio or on TV)
This isn't just black people I've had many friends of different groups creeds and races and it never fails this I'm a victim whether it's the government, their parents, society bla blah blah. It's pathetic.
I consider my people not by the color of their skin but how it use to be in african(and still is) and other parts of the word where skin can't be the dividing line. I choose my people by their thoughts belief system and ideals because these are the things that make a culture not just Im a color so I belong here. I think my ancestors the tribal ones especially would laugh at this notion they would say do they believe as you do? Do they pray to the same God? Do they give respect to the spirits as you Do they respect the people as you? Do they have a system of believe as you? A code of honor like you? No then how can they be your people.
Your people are those who believe as you do. It's that simple. Color has nothing to do with it. Culture is alot of things role together it art religion manners etc etc you people should do the same or at least similiar or their not your people.
That's like saying a Mongolian and a Thai are the same culture just cause they come from asia. The same is true with blacks, whites and everyone else. In america they try to package everything neatly cause you can't really get a good census on people by just how they think. It not like in the past when you could look at the garbs and know they are of a differnt tribe so it's easier to go by skin color, This basically dismisses the past up to about a few hundred years but also I think disrespect all my ancestor that came before me to make me but that just me.
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