America is a totally racist White country now and forever, so the Asian Americans will be foreigners forever.
Whites will never accept Asian Americans to be really "American"...Thats the true reality forever.
White racism is forever, so Asian Americans will be discriminated forever in America. Thats enough!
So we should go back to Asia. Asia is the worlds future superpower so we should go there and its our original place.
Lets make a superpower Asia so its more powerful and more successful than America in the future.
Asia will become the center of the world in the future. America and Europe will go down. In future when Asia is center of the world, then White people will want to become Asian, but we won't let them, so its the best justice. Then we won't speak English anymore, we will speak Asian languages which will replace European languages as the top languages of the world. White people will speak Asian languages to speak to White people.
So no more be "Asian American" it has no result and just more frustration. Lets be Asian again by our own free choice. No more being marginal. Asia is the future center of the world so lets be in the center at last.
Full Version: Asia Is The Future So Lets Return To Asia
damn homey thats harsh
If you really think about it, you will realize that I have a good point.
AMERICA is the harsh past and present:
racism, discrimination, being called Orientals, being considered foreign, marginalization, ashamed to be Asian, hiding your culture, trying to be White, dissing your own fellow Asians for being fob, etc... etc... etc... you know the rest.....
ASIA is the promising FUTURE:
freedom, success, liberation, being part of the majority, being in the center of society, being proud of your Asian face, being proud of your Asian cultures...heck....being proud to be Asian, period!
So think lest really about it, our future as Asians!
Lets go to our TRUE HOME ASIA because thats where Asian Americans can really achieve their future dreams of equality and success that they keep being denied in America.
We can be truly free in the motherland of our ancestors, Asia is rapidly increasing and getting stronger....
Only in the land of our past ancestors can the Asian American FUTURE be successfully realized!
ASIA!!
AMERICA is the harsh past and present:
racism, discrimination, being called Orientals, being considered foreign, marginalization, ashamed to be Asian, hiding your culture, trying to be White, dissing your own fellow Asians for being fob, etc... etc... etc... you know the rest.....
ASIA is the promising FUTURE:
freedom, success, liberation, being part of the majority, being in the center of society, being proud of your Asian face, being proud of your Asian cultures...heck....being proud to be Asian, period!
So think lest really about it, our future as Asians!
Lets go to our TRUE HOME ASIA because thats where Asian Americans can really achieve their future dreams of equality and success that they keep being denied in America.
We can be truly free in the motherland of our ancestors, Asia is rapidly increasing and getting stronger....
Only in the land of our past ancestors can the Asian American FUTURE be successfully realized!
ASIA!!
somekindaasian,
Chill out man - it sounds like you wrote this just after some stupid redneck/skinhead yelled at you and made you aware that yes, you are not white. But hey, that's life. If it weren't a white boy, it would be just some other misguided bully.
Yes, Asia is progressing toward a truly promising future. However, I for one like it in America, the occasional confrontations with ignorant peckerwood morons notwithstanding. I certainly don't feel marginal by any means. I guess it's all a question of attitude. Of course, I'm a native of California, and the white folks here are pretty much inured to the sight of non-whites. It was a whole different story when I visited Indianapolis, but that's for another topic.
Chill out man - it sounds like you wrote this just after some stupid redneck/skinhead yelled at you and made you aware that yes, you are not white. But hey, that's life. If it weren't a white boy, it would be just some other misguided bully.
Yes, Asia is progressing toward a truly promising future. However, I for one like it in America, the occasional confrontations with ignorant peckerwood morons notwithstanding. I certainly don't feel marginal by any means. I guess it's all a question of attitude. Of course, I'm a native of California, and the white folks here are pretty much inured to the sight of non-whites. It was a whole different story when I visited Indianapolis, but that's for another topic.
somekinda-asian,
Nah Black Americans tried 40 years ago. It doesn't work. Most of us are already too assimilated in American culture to be successful overseas in Asia.
Might as well make the best of it here.
Now whenever I get down and out about white America, I just hire a white gardener to fix up my yard. Then I just abuse him for a month. Then pay only 80% of his invoice claiming that he did do a good job, then I tell him Mexicans do a better job for less.
Then I feel better....
Just kidding. But I would do that if I ever felt that way.
Nah Black Americans tried 40 years ago. It doesn't work. Most of us are already too assimilated in American culture to be successful overseas in Asia.
Might as well make the best of it here.
Now whenever I get down and out about white America, I just hire a white gardener to fix up my yard. Then I just abuse him for a month. Then pay only 80% of his invoice claiming that he did do a good job, then I tell him Mexicans do a better job for less.
Then I feel better....
Just kidding. But I would do that if I ever felt that way.
somekindof_asian,
Okay, America as you say is racist. If you feel you want to move out, then no one is stopping you. Move out.and stop advocating the rest of us to move out with you and your grief. If I moved out of America to someplace else say relatives in France, Ireland, China, Australia, Singapore or the Philippines, then I better hope not to find you as my next door neighbor. I'll go simply nuts and start to share your mindset. Playing devil's advocate, where in Asia you wish to move out to?
Sounds strange for someone who's a non-american asain to advocate other asians in America to go back to Asia?
Okay, America as you say is racist. If you feel you want to move out, then no one is stopping you. Move out.and stop advocating the rest of us to move out with you and your grief. If I moved out of America to someplace else say relatives in France, Ireland, China, Australia, Singapore or the Philippines, then I better hope not to find you as my next door neighbor. I'll go simply nuts and start to share your mindset. Playing devil's advocate, where in Asia you wish to move out to?
Sounds strange for someone who's a non-american asain to advocate other asians in America to go back to Asia?
somekindof_asian,
What about those kids born to Asian and Caucasian parents? They are a growing number and can not be neglected. Where will they fit? Will they have to go and find a land for themselves as well and help in segregating the world into a racially divided planet?
My girlfriend's White Irish and my best friends are Europeans. Granted I was born in Vietnam, but from the age of two I've lived in Europe and am Western educated. I honestly don't think I would fit into a strict, family-focused, father-controlled environment where being individualist and eccentric is not acceptable.
Despite all the racism and discrimination I have known here in England especially, I am willing to fight and do my best to get us Asian people accepted and recognized by both the Americans and the Europeans. The African people have had to do the same and I believe are still fighting for their rights nowadays.
But in order to do so, we Asians have to get away from the academics and try our luck at sports and the media! The Caucasians will see more Asian faces on their television screens and on their sports fields and will, slowly but surely, consider the Asian individual as an integral part of the everyday Western landscape.
No wonder some White people still treat us as foreigners. Have you witnessed many Asian sports people playing or competing at the highest levels for American or European teams? Now think about all the African-American sports celebrities in the baseball, football, basketball, soccer, etc?teams winning medals for the USA!
It?s not by becoming doctors or lawyers that we Asians will be accepted. How many Asian male doctors have you ever seen in ER? Zero! Despite the fact that nearly every hospital all over the US have at least one or two Asian doctors saving White lives on a daily basis.
Now you can not switch on your television screens without seeing at least a handful of African-American actors, sports people, models, entertainers, singers, news presenters, artists, etc?I admit that they represent 12% of the American population compared to our paltry 4 or 5%, but the number of Asians is growing steadily as far as I know.
Unfortunately, those Asian immigrants moving to America usually are very qualified and skilled people in the Engineering fields, medicine, law, etc?Hopefully they will raise their kids the American way and give them the opportunities to become something else than well-educated geeks and nerds!
What about those kids born to Asian and Caucasian parents? They are a growing number and can not be neglected. Where will they fit? Will they have to go and find a land for themselves as well and help in segregating the world into a racially divided planet?
My girlfriend's White Irish and my best friends are Europeans. Granted I was born in Vietnam, but from the age of two I've lived in Europe and am Western educated. I honestly don't think I would fit into a strict, family-focused, father-controlled environment where being individualist and eccentric is not acceptable.
Despite all the racism and discrimination I have known here in England especially, I am willing to fight and do my best to get us Asian people accepted and recognized by both the Americans and the Europeans. The African people have had to do the same and I believe are still fighting for their rights nowadays.
But in order to do so, we Asians have to get away from the academics and try our luck at sports and the media! The Caucasians will see more Asian faces on their television screens and on their sports fields and will, slowly but surely, consider the Asian individual as an integral part of the everyday Western landscape.
No wonder some White people still treat us as foreigners. Have you witnessed many Asian sports people playing or competing at the highest levels for American or European teams? Now think about all the African-American sports celebrities in the baseball, football, basketball, soccer, etc?teams winning medals for the USA!
It?s not by becoming doctors or lawyers that we Asians will be accepted. How many Asian male doctors have you ever seen in ER? Zero! Despite the fact that nearly every hospital all over the US have at least one or two Asian doctors saving White lives on a daily basis.
Now you can not switch on your television screens without seeing at least a handful of African-American actors, sports people, models, entertainers, singers, news presenters, artists, etc?I admit that they represent 12% of the American population compared to our paltry 4 or 5%, but the number of Asians is growing steadily as far as I know.
Unfortunately, those Asian immigrants moving to America usually are very qualified and skilled people in the Engineering fields, medicine, law, etc?Hopefully they will raise their kids the American way and give them the opportunities to become something else than well-educated geeks and nerds!
Is that it.... I expected more vision and wider understanding from my fellow Asian brothers and sisters. I respect you guys, but I hope you can expand the point of view a bit more... Yes I understand your points of being (supposedly) assiimilated into the Western world... But come on.... we all know that is just a false hope.... Sorry to point it out but its true!... Although you can be born in the West..HECK even a 3th, 4th generation, hell even 10th generation if there is such a thing...BUT no matter if you change your name to Mr. Milton Baxter or Caroline Adams or some Anglo-White name, and even if you speak fluenly, heck even perfectly, better in grammar than a White person, BUT You will always be SEEN AS A FOREIGNER, A NON-WHITE, A NON-WESTERN, AN ORIENTAL aka ASIAN aka NOT-FROM-HERE...... that IS the undeniable reality!...... Wakaru?
But think for a minute about this whole thing called "Asian America" or even those "Westernized Asians" in Canada, Australia and Europe...How did THAT come to be??? And I dont mean the Asian American that started Civil Rights or activists of the 60s, 70s..... No..... .what I mean is, WHAT are ASIAN people doing in the West at all????....... Are you just thinking about the sanitized story.....they are the decendants of Asians that immigrated, or whose ancestors immigrated to a Western country and they later become Westernised.....so much Westernization to the point of not having any ability in Asian Cultures and Asian languages, etc..... is it all some cute and noble sounding hardworking immigrants' story to you.....well thats just the half of it ladies and gentlemen....
For a moment.....imagine this....... HOW ABOUT THE REVERSE SCENARIO???... Where are the "Asian Whites"??..... Where are all the masses of White people who immigrated to Asia???....Where are the White youths that have become 3rd generation Asians, and cannot speak European languages, and are all assimilated into Asian culture??? Cant find any???.... just a two people in the whole world??.....OF COURSE...thats because Asians never colonized the West....never imperialized the West.... Asians never violently attacked and disrupted Western society....never imposed Buddhism or Asian religions on Whites......never brainwashed Whites about Asians philiosophies.....Asians never colonially screwed Western economies to the point of making it necessary for White people to migrate to Asia....READ YOUR HISTORY BOOKS FOLKS....the sick violent truth of Western history is ALL there in black and WHITE!!
BUT the White Westerns DID SCREW the Asians colonially and imperialistically...and VIOLA...wham..bam..thank you ma'am...a pinch of pepper and a dash of salt to the complicated historical soup....and a few centuries later.....millions of Asians in the west...all you Y.O.U. nice Westernised Asian folks out there.... Asians speaking English and other Western langauges, Asians wanting to look more Caucasian, Asians ashamed of their faces, Asians ashamed of their original cultures,...blah blah blah...etc..etc..etc.... you now the rest.....
There is a centuries old GLOBAL IMBALANCE that has yet to be corrected. Wake up everybody!!...... Welcome the REAL WORLD.....the World that came about as a result of WESTERN-EUROPEAN colonialism and imperial domination..... Its here...Its now.... WE are IN IT and LIVING IT!.......The world leans toward the Western culture, Western philosophies, Western ideas, Western values....the Whites are the standard, the default settings...... I, an Asian, am now writing to you, fellow Asians, in English now arent I..? But why dont we write in Chinese, Japanese or Korean???? Can't we?? Maybe we are incapable of it???.....the systems of communiation are too Westernized now...... Why is it we never hear of the masses of frustrated young White people who feel too Asianized so that it affects their self esteem and social identity as Whites....doesnt it happen?? OF course NOT! The world never turned out that why....the world turned out in a way that puts Asian people and Asian faces at a disadvantage....BUT WE ARE NOT COMMPLETELY POWERLESS.....WE CAN CHANGE THE WORLD...Asians in Asia are slowly changing the world right now....
Asia is the only place to experience what life would be like if you were NOT the racial minority.... In Asia YOU are the standard, YOU are the default setting.....in Asian you ARE THE MAJORITY......of course Asian influence is still at the regional level, (sorry, but the West and its Euro-cultural tentacles are not so easily overcome), but Asia IS gradually increasing in power and prestige....one day....the globe will swing in OUR favor.!
MORE POWER TO ASIA! LONG LIVE ASIAN PEOPLES AND CULTURES! And that includes You as an Asian!
Its not just me saying it...the fact IS...ASIA REALLY IS THE FUTURE...So grab that Asian future! You as an Asian person have a RIGHT it be part of it.
But think for a minute about this whole thing called "Asian America" or even those "Westernized Asians" in Canada, Australia and Europe...How did THAT come to be??? And I dont mean the Asian American that started Civil Rights or activists of the 60s, 70s..... No..... .what I mean is, WHAT are ASIAN people doing in the West at all????....... Are you just thinking about the sanitized story.....they are the decendants of Asians that immigrated, or whose ancestors immigrated to a Western country and they later become Westernised.....so much Westernization to the point of not having any ability in Asian Cultures and Asian languages, etc..... is it all some cute and noble sounding hardworking immigrants' story to you.....well thats just the half of it ladies and gentlemen....
For a moment.....imagine this....... HOW ABOUT THE REVERSE SCENARIO???... Where are the "Asian Whites"??..... Where are all the masses of White people who immigrated to Asia???....Where are the White youths that have become 3rd generation Asians, and cannot speak European languages, and are all assimilated into Asian culture??? Cant find any???.... just a two people in the whole world??.....OF COURSE...thats because Asians never colonized the West....never imperialized the West.... Asians never violently attacked and disrupted Western society....never imposed Buddhism or Asian religions on Whites......never brainwashed Whites about Asians philiosophies.....Asians never colonially screwed Western economies to the point of making it necessary for White people to migrate to Asia....READ YOUR HISTORY BOOKS FOLKS....the sick violent truth of Western history is ALL there in black and WHITE!!
BUT the White Westerns DID SCREW the Asians colonially and imperialistically...and VIOLA...wham..bam..thank you ma'am...a pinch of pepper and a dash of salt to the complicated historical soup....and a few centuries later.....millions of Asians in the west...all you Y.O.U. nice Westernised Asian folks out there.... Asians speaking English and other Western langauges, Asians wanting to look more Caucasian, Asians ashamed of their faces, Asians ashamed of their original cultures,...blah blah blah...etc..etc..etc.... you now the rest.....
There is a centuries old GLOBAL IMBALANCE that has yet to be corrected. Wake up everybody!!...... Welcome the REAL WORLD.....the World that came about as a result of WESTERN-EUROPEAN colonialism and imperial domination..... Its here...Its now.... WE are IN IT and LIVING IT!.......The world leans toward the Western culture, Western philosophies, Western ideas, Western values....the Whites are the standard, the default settings...... I, an Asian, am now writing to you, fellow Asians, in English now arent I..? But why dont we write in Chinese, Japanese or Korean???? Can't we?? Maybe we are incapable of it???.....the systems of communiation are too Westernized now...... Why is it we never hear of the masses of frustrated young White people who feel too Asianized so that it affects their self esteem and social identity as Whites....doesnt it happen?? OF course NOT! The world never turned out that why....the world turned out in a way that puts Asian people and Asian faces at a disadvantage....BUT WE ARE NOT COMMPLETELY POWERLESS.....WE CAN CHANGE THE WORLD...Asians in Asia are slowly changing the world right now....
Asia is the only place to experience what life would be like if you were NOT the racial minority.... In Asia YOU are the standard, YOU are the default setting.....in Asian you ARE THE MAJORITY......of course Asian influence is still at the regional level, (sorry, but the West and its Euro-cultural tentacles are not so easily overcome), but Asia IS gradually increasing in power and prestige....one day....the globe will swing in OUR favor.!
MORE POWER TO ASIA! LONG LIVE ASIAN PEOPLES AND CULTURES! And that includes You as an Asian!
Its not just me saying it...the fact IS...ASIA REALLY IS THE FUTURE...So grab that Asian future! You as an Asian person have a RIGHT it be part of it.
As sad as it sounds, somekinda-asian's got a point...it's been so many decades if not centuries since asian ppl immigrated to america and still americans feel like we are foreigners to "their" country. Seriously, america would not be america without its diversity. Asians had made such a great contribution to america's economy and progress and yet asians are not appreciated as such. I'm surprised that the US is known for being "open"; they might be open to new kind of music, new kind of food, new kind of clothing style, but i don't think they are open enough to ppl from other races, some of them even feels like we invaded their land or sth 
. Besides, the US has a history being racing to asians, which is sad...
. Besides, the US has a history being racing to asians, which is sad...
then it is your diligent duty to colonise your white country as in a missionary by staying there and having china towns for years to come.
they need to learn to assimilate to asians just like they themselves have been colonising asia, africa and everywhere else.
look at it from their point of view.
they are being taken over by strangers while asian nations have been largely homogenous compared to western countries.
people are superficial.
objectively, would you say black americans are more american than asian americans?
there isnt a substantial asian population in america compared to other races.
we need to reach a critical mass for a strong asian american culture that would be considered proudly american.
we need to push the idea that nationality is more than just about the race.
but whether one race have affinity for another is a different situation.
the whites are uncivilised savages and they need to be taught Confucious teachings and the Asian way by our advanced civilisation (Asian Man's Burden).
they need to learn to assimilate to asians just like they themselves have been colonising asia, africa and everywhere else.
look at it from their point of view.
they are being taken over by strangers while asian nations have been largely homogenous compared to western countries.
people are superficial.
objectively, would you say black americans are more american than asian americans?
there isnt a substantial asian population in america compared to other races.
we need to reach a critical mass for a strong asian american culture that would be considered proudly american.
we need to push the idea that nationality is more than just about the race.
but whether one race have affinity for another is a different situation.
the whites are uncivilised savages and they need to be taught Confucious teachings and the Asian way by our advanced civilisation (Asian Man's Burden).
The preachings that Somekinda Asian are saying is kinda what Hitler said. Hitler wanted all The German Americans to return to the mother land, which was Nazi Germany. Now I am not saying somekinda Asian has the same kind of significance with Hitler, hell for all I know somekinda could be some pimpled geeky asian kid that stares at this computer screen all day and night. What I am saying is that preachings like that will be your down fall. His man is trying to make you think of a different life, a different life in Asian.
Now I am going to say a few words that might help you or not help you change all your ideas of Asia being the future. It is true that both Koreas have the potential to make nukes. Japan is one of the top economical countries in the world. China also has a good economy, and military, and a good industrial country. All good things, but there are big problems with Asia right now if it is progressing or not.
The government of Communisum is still in power in The People's Republic in China, Loas, Vietnam which have moved to a similar government called Socialism. And the most biggest threat North Korea. The poverty in Asia is very high and it is just plan dirty (Zars). I just want to get one point out to you, if you do move do you think you will the unification you do now in the good U.S.A.? An example, if you are Korean do you think you will have the same problems with someone in China?
Where I am getting at is that because of America we have a culture clash with of Asian dicents, which you cannot find anywhere else. Somekinda Asian's peachings are not right, he himself is what we dispise, Racism.
If you want to make the "White people" see our true selves and not some kinda stereotype then you got to out reach to them. Make friends with then, but still keep your Asian friends show them that you can be a good of an American then them. Thats what I did, I surrounded myself with White people and I showed them my culture and I did things that average college students due. Get play Rugby, get drunk and have fun. I am a reserve fire fighter, and I want to be on SNL, something that you wouldn't think a Korean American would do. And I kept my Asian friends along the road too. We talk about Korean music, korean actors, and just anything that comes to mind. So just try alittle harder to show that America has a very important asset it might lose.
Now I am going to say a few words that might help you or not help you change all your ideas of Asia being the future. It is true that both Koreas have the potential to make nukes. Japan is one of the top economical countries in the world. China also has a good economy, and military, and a good industrial country. All good things, but there are big problems with Asia right now if it is progressing or not.
The government of Communisum is still in power in The People's Republic in China, Loas, Vietnam which have moved to a similar government called Socialism. And the most biggest threat North Korea. The poverty in Asia is very high and it is just plan dirty (Zars). I just want to get one point out to you, if you do move do you think you will the unification you do now in the good U.S.A.? An example, if you are Korean do you think you will have the same problems with someone in China?
Where I am getting at is that because of America we have a culture clash with of Asian dicents, which you cannot find anywhere else. Somekinda Asian's peachings are not right, he himself is what we dispise, Racism.
If you want to make the "White people" see our true selves and not some kinda stereotype then you got to out reach to them. Make friends with then, but still keep your Asian friends show them that you can be a good of an American then them. Thats what I did, I surrounded myself with White people and I showed them my culture and I did things that average college students due. Get play Rugby, get drunk and have fun. I am a reserve fire fighter, and I want to be on SNL, something that you wouldn't think a Korean American would do. And I kept my Asian friends along the road too. We talk about Korean music, korean actors, and just anything that comes to mind. So just try alittle harder to show that America has a very important asset it might lose.
You know guys I dont live in the US but I dont think thats a good idea. And no I dont think Somekinda Asian has a point.
You see with things like the internet and so on the world seems to be getting smaller. Its easier to do business overseas or even look for jobs now. If you say go back to asia its like going against the prime reason your foreparents came to america in the first place. I think asians living in america is a step forward for asians. The world is changing - look at how many hispanics live in miami. In some places its as if spanish is the first language.
Maybe by you staying in the US it would be better for asians back home. You all have the advantage of getting to experience two worlds. Asians also help to make america diverse. You could even say america is the world - everyone goes there. Look at how many stowaways arrive from time to time. What are they coming to the states for? Your parents and grandparents have gone through too much to just give up.
If you are feeling down and out from the racism remember that you are strong as a people and dont forget where you came from. Its what you have to go through to earn your place. Maybe people hating on you is a case of the fox and the grapes. America was not mostly white in the beginning. Remember the native peoples?
Asians have made great contributions to the world particularly in the fields of the sciences (dont want to stereotype but its a valid point) and lot of them that did were asian american. It could just be jealousy or asians are seen as a threat and if so well it could mean that you do have something in your favour.
The racism is just a part of the process. Look at the civil rights movement in the US. Racial tolerance is still a fairly new concept in the US. Not just racial tolerance but cultural tolerance.
So if some igonorant whites and blacks made dumb comments just ignore them but also state that you are displeased. Heck in every race people discriminate amongst themselves.
Be the smart one - demonstrate to people that you are above that level of ignorance.
To just say get up and go back to asia and go through all that for nothing? Thats wasted effort.
You see with things like the internet and so on the world seems to be getting smaller. Its easier to do business overseas or even look for jobs now. If you say go back to asia its like going against the prime reason your foreparents came to america in the first place. I think asians living in america is a step forward for asians. The world is changing - look at how many hispanics live in miami. In some places its as if spanish is the first language.
Maybe by you staying in the US it would be better for asians back home. You all have the advantage of getting to experience two worlds. Asians also help to make america diverse. You could even say america is the world - everyone goes there. Look at how many stowaways arrive from time to time. What are they coming to the states for? Your parents and grandparents have gone through too much to just give up.
If you are feeling down and out from the racism remember that you are strong as a people and dont forget where you came from. Its what you have to go through to earn your place. Maybe people hating on you is a case of the fox and the grapes. America was not mostly white in the beginning. Remember the native peoples?
Asians have made great contributions to the world particularly in the fields of the sciences (dont want to stereotype but its a valid point) and lot of them that did were asian american. It could just be jealousy or asians are seen as a threat and if so well it could mean that you do have something in your favour.
The racism is just a part of the process. Look at the civil rights movement in the US. Racial tolerance is still a fairly new concept in the US. Not just racial tolerance but cultural tolerance.
So if some igonorant whites and blacks made dumb comments just ignore them but also state that you are displeased. Heck in every race people discriminate amongst themselves.
Be the smart one - demonstrate to people that you are above that level of ignorance.
To just say get up and go back to asia and go through all that for nothing? Thats wasted effort.
and pray tell why should asians in the US put up with racism when THE ONLY REASON our parents immigrated here was for economic reasons and the stellar rise of the chinese and indian economies means that this will be the pacific century of asia?
| QUOTE |
| ntelligence Future-Gazers Look at 2020 Thu Jan 13, 8:14 PM ET U.S. Government - AP By KATHERINE PFLEGER SHRADER, Associated Press Writer LANGLEY, Va. - And now, a look into the future: al-Qaida, out; murky and scattered new terror cells, in. Hollywood, out; India's "Bollywood" in. America as sole superpower, out; China and India as world players, in. At least, that's what U.S. intelligence future-gazers predicted Thursday. "How we mentally map the world of 2020 will change radically," said the National Intelligence Council Chairman Robert Hutchings at the release of his panel's new report, Project 2020. Newly arriving powers "have the potential to render obsolete the old categories of East and West, North and South." The unclassified forecasts offer a range of scenarios about the world 15 years out. Officials caution they are not meant to be predictions certain to come true but rather long-term outlooks designed to stimulate debate at the start of a new administration, in the works months before President Bush (news - web sites) won. The council predicts an emergence of new global players ? almost certainly China and India ? but whether these new players fit into the world cooperatively or competitively remains an important uncertainty for the United States. Council Vice Chairman David Gordon said the changes ahead could be "a very bumpy ride." Among them, he said, the integration of 1 billion low-paid workers will cause global shifts in rich and poor countries alike. Changes will be experienced politically, economically and even culturally, as Korean pop singers gain international popularity and India's Bollywood movie industry outshines Hollywood. "Of course, the United States is in good shape to participate in this world, but it will be a world that will be much more competitive for us," Gordon said. Hutchings said this new order will raise the stakes for Arab countries, which may join in globalization trends or experience further alienation and humiliation. Terror threats, too, will change. While radical extremism will continue to grow, the report says al-Qaida is expected to be superseded by similarly inspired, decentralized groups. Hutchings said he expects the innovation in terror attacks to come from new elements of surprise, rather than unconventional weapons. The groups' members will be tapping technology that provides instant connections for communications and training, posing a significant intelligence challenge to organizations including the CIA (news - web sites). "Our greatest concern is that terrorists might acquire biological agents or, less likely, a nuclear device, either of which could cause mass causalities," the report said. The council treads carefully on the success of democratization ? an issue Bush has made the cornerstone of his foreign policy. It predicts democratic progress in key Middle Eastern countries, including Iraq (news - web sites) and Afghanistan (news - web sites), which may be an example for Muslim and Arab states still ruled by repressive regimes. However, Russian and Central Asian countries could slip backward, according to the report. The National Intelligence Council reports directly to CIA Director Porter Goss but remains separate from the agency. It is responsible for preparing National Intelligence Estimates for policy-makers. Although its products are generally highly classified, significant details have emerged on its overblown estimate of Iraq's weapons capability. A team of analysts, consulting with over 1,000 international experts over the last year, assembled Project 2020, which follows projects 2010 and 2015. In a 120-page glossy book, the council also offers four fictional, but possible, scenarios to illustrate points: _ In a letter, the head of the World Economic Forum (news - web sites) explains to a former Federal Reserve (news - web sites) chairman how China and India are reshaping globalization trends. A sign of shifting power centers, the once Western-dominated club, which meets annually in Davos, Switzerland, has ceded to demands that the meeting be held in Asia every other year. "To be frank, America is no longer quite the engine it used to be," the forum's head writes. "Instead, the markets are now oriented eastwards." _ In a private diary entry, the U.N. secretary-general writes of how U.S. dominance has survived radical global change and remains "the bedrock of the world order." But the scenario suggests that international organizations largely are not sharing the burden. "I get the feeling that a lot of Americans are getting tired of playing the world's policeman," she writes. _ The grandson of Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) writes a letter to another relative about his frustrations with an Islamic leader who has taken over an unnamed Middle Eastern country. While the core of al-Qaida is out of business, its remnants are tapping confusion and turmoil in the Middle East, cutting deals with local warlords who are leaving al-Qaida free to operate as it sees fit. "I'm hopeful," the grandson writes. _ In a series of text messages, illegal arms dealers reveal their worries about an increasingly Orwellian world, with heightened intrusiveness and monitoring by countries spooked by terror attacks. "I worry about the chip," one dealer says. |
Um...Though I think it is commendable about the growth in the chinese economy and dont want to sound too negative lets stay on the side of caution. It may very well be too soon to come to that conclusion. I think its a case of 'wait and see' for now.
| QUOTE |
| Evans Says China's Policies May Risk U.S. Backlash (Update6) Jan. 12 (Bloomberg) -- China risks inciting a backlash from U.S. lawmakers and businesses because of subsidies for state-run companies, curbs on imports and the fixed value of its currency, U.S. Commerce Secretary Donald Evans said. ``When China's leaders fail to produce results on the points of friction in our trading relationship, their failure only empowers those critics within the U.S. political system,'' Evans said today in a speech to the American Chamber of Commerce in Beijing. The U.S. blames Chinese government policies for aggravating a trade deficit with China that grew to a record $150 billion in 2004, according to a Bloomberg News survey of economists. Trade authorities have imposed tariffs on Chinese imports including televisions, furniture and textiles since 2003 after complaints by U.S. manufacturers, which shed 2.7 million jobs since 2001. ``It's a serious message from the U.S. government, probably delivered because trading issues had been sidelined during the global fight against terrorism,'' said Zhiqun Zhu, professor of international political economy and diplomacy at the University of Bridgeport. ``I don't think he will get any specific concessions on this trip, but they will get the message.'' China is aware of the U.S. Commerce Secretary's remarks, Chong Quan, spokesman for the Ministry of Commerce, said in a telephone interview in Beijing. He declined to comment further. Piracy Review Evans, wrapping up four years as President George W. Bush's envoy to the business community, has led efforts to get China to crack down on piracy of intellectual property and curb government loans and subsidies to exporters. Commerce Secretary nominee Carlos M. Gutierrez will take over amid a special review by U.S. trade officials of China's anti-piracy measures, which may form the basis of a World Trade Organization complaint. Gutierrez also faces petitions from U.S. textile makers that are seeking limits on Chinese imports after a four-decade-old global quota system expired at the end of last year. U.S. companies and lawmakers complain that China's policy of pegging the yuan at 8.28 to the dollar for the past decade gives its companies an unfair advantage by lowering the price of their exports. European Central Bank Chief Economist Otmar Issing yesterday also suggested Asian nations should stop seeking to manage their currencies. The euro's advance against the dollar has ``gone too far,'' Issing said at a conference in Zurich, Switzerland. ``The key to this problem lies with Asia and especially in the hands of China.'' Yuan Policy Evans reiterated a Bush administration call to end the currency peg and urged China to drop retail-sales restrictions, curb state-run bank lending and provide a more transparent rule of law. Investors increased bets China will let the yuan strengthen. The currency would rise to 7.867 against the dollar in a year if freely traded from its pegged rate of 8.277, a gain of 5.2 percent, forward contracts showed at 12:36 p.m. in Hong Kong. The implied rate was 7.887 late yesterday in Asia. The contracts allow investors to bet on the value of a currency that is not fully convertible or hedge investments denominated in it. ``The growing trade surplus in China and comments from Issing have been encouraging yuan buying,'' said Ichiro Ikeda, vice president of the global currency and commodity group at JPMorgan Chase Bank in Tokyo. ``Comments from Evans are also an addition to such appreciation pressure.'' China's overall trade surplus widened to a record $11.1 billion in December as exports jumped 33 percent to an all-time high of $63.8 billion, the Ministry of Commerce said yesterday. Textile Curbs About 1.5 million American jobs were lost from 1989 through 2003 as China's trade surplus with the U.S. climbed from $6 billion to $124 billion, according to a report for the congressionally chartered U.S.-China Economic Security Review Commission. U.S. textile makers are seeking limits on trousers, shirts, sheets and other China-made items, in addition to curbs the government has already announced on products such as socks, knit fabrics and robes. Textile makers such as Milliken & Co. say that without limits on imports from China, 600,000 U.S. textile jobs will be lost after the expiry of quotas China, the world's largest clothing exporter, said on Dec. 13 it would start taxing some of its textile shipments and limit expansion of its clothing industry to head off threatened actions by the U.S. and European Union. ``China is an easy and convenient target for the domestic problems of the United States,'' said Fan Gang, director of the National Economic Research Institute in Beijing. ``Whatever China does, there's always China-bashing and Chinese policy makers understand that. Of course, the government needs to respond in some way and it already has.'' State Loans U.S. manufacturers also complain that access to cheap loans from state banks gives Chinese rivals an unfair cost advantage. Sichuan Changhong Electric Co., China's second-biggest television maker, said on Jan. 6 it received credit lines totaling 8.5 billion yuan ($1.03 billion) from China's biggest four state banks after forecasting a loss for last year. The Commerce Department in April imposed 24.5 percent anti- dumping tariffs on Changhong, whose TVs are sold under the Apex brand by Wal-Mart Stores Inc. and other U.S. retailers, after ruling that the company was selling sets at below fair value. Further U.S. trade actions may prompt resistance from U.S. companies that benefit from the $181 billion commercial relationship with China. Retailers such as Wal-Mart and Target Corp. are relying on imports from China to lower costs and spur sales, while companies such as General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and McDonald's Corp. are investing to tap booming domestic demand in the world's fastest- growing major economy. Direct Selling A coalition of U.S. retailers including Liz Claiborne Inc. and J.C. Penney Co. last month filed a lawsuit to block the U.S. Commerce Department from imposing new limits on Chinese textiles. ``The U.S. government wants to step up the pressure on China to get more benefits,'' said Henry Gao, an assistant law professor at the Hong Kong University who previously worked as a trade lawyer for the WTO. ``I doubt whether they'll be able to achieve that.'' The Bush administration also wants China to let companies such as Avon Products Inc. and Amway Corp. start selling directly to consumers again. China, which pledged to lift a ban on direct selling within three years of joining the WTO, has yet to release regulations governing the business. ``We are especially concerned that China's forthcoming direct selling regulations will undercut the opening of this sector to U.S. companies,'' Evans said. To contact the reporter on this story: Mark Drajem in Washington at mdrajem@bloomberg.net To contact the editor responsible for this story: Glenn Hall at ghall@bloomberg.net |
Hey somekindaazzhole
Isnt that what Asian Foreign students are doing already?
I mean they come here get their college degree and hightail it back to the homeland.
You do realize that they usually end up going to schools funded by American Citizen's tax dollars that they have been paying for 20 years, the expectation being that they are funding the college where their kid will eventually end up. Because the Universities can charge more they let in more foreign students, which takes openings away from students who have lived all their lives in the U.S. Think what 500 openings a year at U of Whatever would do for the communities of so many inner cities.
If you want to go, no ones stopping you, just dont let the door hit ya on the way out. Dont post again until your in the homeland. Otherwise quit complaining and try to make things better.
Dont run away from problems. Be a man and face them.
We can do without your attitude here, thank you very much.
Isnt that what Asian Foreign students are doing already?
I mean they come here get their college degree and hightail it back to the homeland.
You do realize that they usually end up going to schools funded by American Citizen's tax dollars that they have been paying for 20 years, the expectation being that they are funding the college where their kid will eventually end up. Because the Universities can charge more they let in more foreign students, which takes openings away from students who have lived all their lives in the U.S. Think what 500 openings a year at U of Whatever would do for the communities of so many inner cities.
If you want to go, no ones stopping you, just dont let the door hit ya on the way out. Dont post again until your in the homeland. Otherwise quit complaining and try to make things better.
Dont run away from problems. Be a man and face them.
We can do without your attitude here, thank you very much.
steelrails,
I agree with you said. Don't let the door hit you on the way out guy.
These "I got it bad" people are disgraceful. Maybe they should quit hanging around KKK whites, or think that they're superior (unless they are of course).
Don't kids come over here for school because they want to learn from the best? How many North Americans go to Asia for school, (even to Japan)?
I agree with you said. Don't let the door hit you on the way out guy.
These "I got it bad" people are disgraceful. Maybe they should quit hanging around KKK whites, or think that they're superior (unless they are of course).
Don't kids come over here for school because they want to learn from the best? How many North Americans go to Asia for school, (even to Japan)?
Actually US with tighter restriction on issuing student visa has less and less foriegn enrollment these days. It has been suggested that this will be the death of US technology leadership, since not many of non-asians pursue degrees or careers in pure sciences or engineering.
Cultural fit is also another thing. If you have lived in America all your life, you would find it hard to fit in Asia. On the other hand, as an Asian in Asia, you will feel welcomed and the stereotypes can't even touch you. You got plenty of Asian girls who I would say have "normal" demands for a boyfriend and eventually husband. That is also the reason why AF is popular.
Having said that, I feel that you would feel more comfortable with where you grow up. Just adapt to it, get involved and mix with the people there. Eventually you will love your country and wondered why you thought of leaving in the first place.
Not sure if it's different in the U.S., but during my last year at school, I noticed that there are a lot of Indian and Arab engineering/sci students now. Whites seem to be the largest group even if they're no longer the majority. Also, from the ones that I knew, they were all middle class white kids. I'm wondering if this "Asians taking over" complaint is real or if it's just something that is cooked up out of fear?
btw, I agree with who posted last. If you're westernized, there's no way you'll truly fit in over in Asia. I wouldn't be surprised if you were shunned or resented as not being "truly" Asian.
btw, I agree with who posted last. If you're westernized, there's no way you'll truly fit in over in Asia. I wouldn't be surprised if you were shunned or resented as not being "truly" Asian.
Some of the Asian cities/countries are very modern & advanced (in some ways more than a lot of Western countries - think of Singapore, Japan, Hong kong, Taiwan, S. Korea), unless you don't speak an Asian language, I don't think it would be that difficult to adjust living in these societies. In Singapore you can get away just speaking English, but It would be better to also learn Mandarin. Many Asian immigrants came to Western countries & couldn't speak the Western language well or at all & had to adjust to a lot of cultural differences, but they still survived & most became successful. So why would it be super difficult to adjust living in a modern Asian society? Most Asians living in the West still eat Asian food most of the time & are familiar with some Asian culture & language. I know of many Asians who were raised in the West & worked/lived in Asia for quite a few years & had a great experience & lots of fun. The one main reason Western Asians might have a problem surviving in Asia, unless they change & adapt, is the much more fast paced, quick thinking & competitive environment. There are a lot of great things about living in the U.S. (not the case with all Western countries) & I'm not advocating running away from problems, but it's also good to be flexible & keep your mind & opportunities open because the World is changing so fast & we are getting closer & closer. 2020 is not that far away.
And what's the significance of 2020? 
| QUOTE |
| I'm wondering if this "Asians taking over" complaint is real or if it's just something that is cooked up out of fear? |
I've gone to several colleges in Illinois and Michigan and most of the engineering and computer science students at the graduate level were Indian and Chinese. Not to mention, these nations both graduate 4 times more engineering students annually in their home countries than the U.S. does. The paranoia of Asian pre-eminence isn't completely groundless.
Krazy,
But are these engineers of the same caliber? For example, I know it's a lot easier to get designated an engineer in the U.S. than it is in Canada. My friend travels down to Indiana, Michigan, Alabama and Georgia a lot for work and everybody down there who's had 2 yrs of school is called an engineer. Up here you need a minimum of 4 years plus 2 years work experience. Before that, you're an engineer in training, or a technologist/technician.
How's R&D in those two country's schools. Regurgitating everything the west has developed makes you a great "grunt" so to speak, but I don't think they'll be as cutting edge. Of course, I've never been to either, so I can't say.
But are these engineers of the same caliber? For example, I know it's a lot easier to get designated an engineer in the U.S. than it is in Canada. My friend travels down to Indiana, Michigan, Alabama and Georgia a lot for work and everybody down there who's had 2 yrs of school is called an engineer. Up here you need a minimum of 4 years plus 2 years work experience. Before that, you're an engineer in training, or a technologist/technician.
How's R&D in those two country's schools. Regurgitating everything the west has developed makes you a great "grunt" so to speak, but I don't think they'll be as cutting edge. Of course, I've never been to either, so I can't say.
As an aside,
I watch Discovery channel a lot and it seems they have a disproportionate # of Chinese/Japanase researchers from U.S./Canadian universities on it (some from Japan too). Anyway, the flight of students overseas seems to be made up of rich kids who come over for the "status" of a western education. A good number probably barely graduated. We may have a lot of smart ones, but we've got a lot of dumb ones too.
I watch Discovery channel a lot and it seems they have a disproportionate # of Chinese/Japanase researchers from U.S./Canadian universities on it (some from Japan too). Anyway, the flight of students overseas seems to be made up of rich kids who come over for the "status" of a western education. A good number probably barely graduated. We may have a lot of smart ones, but we've got a lot of dumb ones too.
Did anyone read the May 9 issue of Newsweek Magazine. The special report cover story was titled: China's Century. It featured actress Zhang Ziyi, the Great Wall & Shanghai's Pudong district on the cover. It was an interesting article - the only part I didn't agree with was that China's confucian culture didn't play that much a part in her wealth, advanced culture/civilization during most of her history & the economic growth the past 25 years. The article also talks about how the U.S. relies too much on foreign students/workers in the science & technology & a growing # of these people are staying home or going home & unless the U.S. starts focusing on the core skills that have made the American economy so far, she will not be able to produce the scientists, engineers & technicians that make up the foundation of an advanced industrial economy. China & India already produce many more engineers than the U.S. (partly because they are very good in mathematics because they focus on it a lot) & China, in five years, will produce more Ph.D.s than the U.S. At the present time they may not be as good as U.S. Ph.D.s (the World always changes & you can't rest on your laurels) but the #s do count. The World is changing so fast that in 2020 our perception of it will most likely not be the same as now. If you had visited China 25 years ago & you go back again today, you will realize how much she has changed & visit again in 15 years & see more changes.
That article is quite true.
Recently I read a news article and Bill Gates was concerned with one of the US government's policy which limits the number of offshore engineers from China and India coming to US.
He was quoted as saying:
| QUOTE |
| The whole idea of the H-1B visa thing is, don't let too many smart people come into the country. The whole thing doesn't make sense |
Just Google up "Bill Gates work permit" and you will find some articles on it.
enlightened lady USA,
I happen to read that article
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7694062/site/newsweek/
I just find the whole tone and view of the article to be somewhat unbelievable. The article takes the position that China is the ?New Kid on the Block.? That for the past 400 years the center of global affairs has been in Europe and USA. That China is ?new? at governing a modern economy.
China was the center of Asia for a few thousand years and was using paper currency since the 9th century. So there is already historical evidence that a China with a large sphere of influence is not some fluke. It is just reasserting itself after a long period of peace in the region.
But if it make China bashers feel any better. China also has a history of going into civil chaos as a dynastic changes occur.
I happen to read that article
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7694062/site/newsweek/
I just find the whole tone and view of the article to be somewhat unbelievable. The article takes the position that China is the ?New Kid on the Block.? That for the past 400 years the center of global affairs has been in Europe and USA. That China is ?new? at governing a modern economy.
China was the center of Asia for a few thousand years and was using paper currency since the 9th century. So there is already historical evidence that a China with a large sphere of influence is not some fluke. It is just reasserting itself after a long period of peace in the region.
But if it make China bashers feel any better. China also has a history of going into civil chaos as a dynastic changes occur.
AC,
That is quite unfortunate that chaos goes hand in hand with each change of "gov't" so to speak. Look at what happened in the 13th century.
The difference this time around is that China is going out looking for fights, the problem is that most of it's neighbours enjoy U.S. protection. It wouldn't surprise me if the U.S. began using naval bases or stationing garrisons on Taiwan as the 2008 Olympics near (and the Chen-Bush terms end).
The main difference between modern China and the West is that the West thrives on competition in innovation, while even today, China's road to success is to absorb as much from the trailblazers as possible. Until the Chinese attitudes change towards "experimentation" or "taking a chance", it will always trail no matter how many Ph.Ds they can print off. Sorry, but Chinese families always favour the known over the unknown (unless it comes to gambling). As long as it's cheaper to copy than to create, the gov't will follow suit.
That is quite unfortunate that chaos goes hand in hand with each change of "gov't" so to speak. Look at what happened in the 13th century.
The difference this time around is that China is going out looking for fights, the problem is that most of it's neighbours enjoy U.S. protection. It wouldn't surprise me if the U.S. began using naval bases or stationing garrisons on Taiwan as the 2008 Olympics near (and the Chen-Bush terms end).
The main difference between modern China and the West is that the West thrives on competition in innovation, while even today, China's road to success is to absorb as much from the trailblazers as possible. Until the Chinese attitudes change towards "experimentation" or "taking a chance", it will always trail no matter how many Ph.Ds they can print off. Sorry, but Chinese families always favour the known over the unknown (unless it comes to gambling). As long as it's cheaper to copy than to create, the gov't will follow suit.
huu76,
Not for long. Rummy wants to shut down bases and there motivation to hand back more military responsibility to SK and Japan. You should read more USA news. The war in Iraq is really taxing USA ability to project forces anywhere else right now.
That would surprise me since the ASL would be enforced. Not to mention ROC and USA have no official contact.
There are more Chinese families immigrating around the whole. Seems Chinese families are quite the risk takers when it come to going into unfamilar situations and assimilating into foriegn cultures.
Where as North American cultures are more insular and lazy by nature unable and unwilling to acculturate to foriegn culture. When North American goto Asia, they don't try to assimilate they form expat communities that look down on the "native."
The West enjoys propogating "divine" Western ideals of government and economics as if it had already accomplished it. When if fact it is without substance. 50% divorce rates, declining birthrates, and promiscuous sex is not something to be proud of and advocating to the world.
North America weighed down by trade unions, with over inflated salaries, like public school teachers in Long Island NY making $100,000 but with little acedemic achievements. Or autoworkers who demand raises, even though, they cannot match the quality of products non union production lines. North America is not as competitive anymore.
It is this arrogance and inability to face the fast changing world which I predict will be the demise of North America. For the world is becoming competitive without boarders. Those asian over-achieving "A" students that non-asian call "curve busters" will in the future be able to compete with North Americans without immigrating, without leaving Asia. Unless North American changes its culture, it will not be able to compete.
You know something is wrong when the USA government is afraid of who is making our underwear and wants to put a quota on it. It is as if PRC has them by the "balls."
You mean like North America copying Europe during the industrialization period. Or the West copying China to make plates and bowl because of how uncivilized the West was in comparison.
| QUOTE |
| the problem is that most of it's neighbours enjoy U.S. protection |
Not for long. Rummy wants to shut down bases and there motivation to hand back more military responsibility to SK and Japan. You should read more USA news. The war in Iraq is really taxing USA ability to project forces anywhere else right now.
| QUOTE |
| It wouldn't surprise me if the U.S. began using naval bases or stationing garrisons on Taiwan as the 2008 Olympics near (and the Chen-Bush terms end). |
That would surprise me since the ASL would be enforced. Not to mention ROC and USA have no official contact.
| QUOTE |
| Until the Chinese attitudes change towards "experimentation" or "taking a chance", it will always trail no matter how many Ph.Ds they can print off. Sorry, but Chinese families always favour the known over the unknown (unless it comes to gambling). |
There are more Chinese families immigrating around the whole. Seems Chinese families are quite the risk takers when it come to going into unfamilar situations and assimilating into foriegn cultures.
Where as North American cultures are more insular and lazy by nature unable and unwilling to acculturate to foriegn culture. When North American goto Asia, they don't try to assimilate they form expat communities that look down on the "native."
The West enjoys propogating "divine" Western ideals of government and economics as if it had already accomplished it. When if fact it is without substance. 50% divorce rates, declining birthrates, and promiscuous sex is not something to be proud of and advocating to the world.
North America weighed down by trade unions, with over inflated salaries, like public school teachers in Long Island NY making $100,000 but with little acedemic achievements. Or autoworkers who demand raises, even though, they cannot match the quality of products non union production lines. North America is not as competitive anymore.
It is this arrogance and inability to face the fast changing world which I predict will be the demise of North America. For the world is becoming competitive without boarders. Those asian over-achieving "A" students that non-asian call "curve busters" will in the future be able to compete with North Americans without immigrating, without leaving Asia. Unless North American changes its culture, it will not be able to compete.
You know something is wrong when the USA government is afraid of who is making our underwear and wants to put a quota on it. It is as if PRC has them by the "balls."
| QUOTE |
| As long as it's cheaper to copy than to create, the gov't will follow suit. |
You mean like North America copying Europe during the industrialization period. Or the West copying China to make plates and bowl because of how uncivilized the West was in comparison.
AC,
I agree with you on the unions point, I can't stand them, especially public ones. That's why I prefer Japanese cars because the extra cost is going into quality, not some lazy lard's pension.
You say the Americans copied the Europeans. The Germans invented the internal combustion engine, the Americans did the car.
An American invented the machine gun.
Then that flying thing at Kittyhawk.
Banting and Best discovered insulin.
French invent photo-film. William Lincoln (U.S.) derived and made the first working animated picture camera (1867). Lumiere (in France) and others invented the first true motion camera.
All this while Europe was the cultural epicentre of the world. So who copied who more?
There's also the sound barrier and space.
Why the U.S. (and the West) will stay ahead.
Igor Sikorsky, a Russian, had to come to America to realize his dreams, which happened to produce the helicopter also.
Nikola Tesla no longer has to share credit for inventing the radio (w/ Edison), he was a Croatian-American.
Discovery channel was doing a piece on this Chinese-American professor/researcher who's doing work for Michigan State creating concrete that bends rather than shatters.
Doing something because you want to (American Dream) will more often than not result in greater achievements than doing it because you have to (Asian family menality). Asians may be better at learning and memorizing, but I think we lose out when it comes to inventing. This is in the context of where you live and how your development is affected (Communist China vs. free society in the West).
The only exceptions I can think of are Nazi Germany and the USSR, but they were ultimately beaten in innovation anyway.
Yes, countries do enjoy U.S. protection. Did you read that the Germans raised a big bruhaha when they heard the U.S. was considering cutting back troops in Germany and moving them to more Eastern bases? Who wouldn't want 70K troops + support spending money in your country. Their presence alone guarantees the U.S. is with you if you're attacked. If you're a democracy, the U.S. has rarely used military pressure to affect internal affairs. Look at how many countries piss them off that have troops or friendly ties with the U.S. (Japan and it's beef ban, S.Corea everyday. Hell, even in Canada). Anyone ever hear that mock saying "Down with America! Hey buddy, can you get me a greencard?"
Yes I do read US news. His plan is to move them back from the DMZ, a few to Japan, some come home and the rest get cut.
The US plan is to fight 2 simultaneous wars and win. Not fight everyone forever. No empire in history has ever been able to do that.
Man, my posts are getting too long winded. I'm starting to bore myself.
I agree with you on the unions point, I can't stand them, especially public ones. That's why I prefer Japanese cars because the extra cost is going into quality, not some lazy lard's pension.
You say the Americans copied the Europeans. The Germans invented the internal combustion engine, the Americans did the car.
An American invented the machine gun.
Then that flying thing at Kittyhawk.
Banting and Best discovered insulin.
French invent photo-film. William Lincoln (U.S.) derived and made the first working animated picture camera (1867). Lumiere (in France) and others invented the first true motion camera.
All this while Europe was the cultural epicentre of the world. So who copied who more?
There's also the sound barrier and space.
Why the U.S. (and the West) will stay ahead.
Igor Sikorsky, a Russian, had to come to America to realize his dreams, which happened to produce the helicopter also.
Nikola Tesla no longer has to share credit for inventing the radio (w/ Edison), he was a Croatian-American.
Discovery channel was doing a piece on this Chinese-American professor/researcher who's doing work for Michigan State creating concrete that bends rather than shatters.
Doing something because you want to (American Dream) will more often than not result in greater achievements than doing it because you have to (Asian family menality). Asians may be better at learning and memorizing, but I think we lose out when it comes to inventing. This is in the context of where you live and how your development is affected (Communist China vs. free society in the West).
The only exceptions I can think of are Nazi Germany and the USSR, but they were ultimately beaten in innovation anyway.
Yes, countries do enjoy U.S. protection. Did you read that the Germans raised a big bruhaha when they heard the U.S. was considering cutting back troops in Germany and moving them to more Eastern bases? Who wouldn't want 70K troops + support spending money in your country. Their presence alone guarantees the U.S. is with you if you're attacked. If you're a democracy, the U.S. has rarely used military pressure to affect internal affairs. Look at how many countries piss them off that have troops or friendly ties with the U.S. (Japan and it's beef ban, S.Corea everyday. Hell, even in Canada). Anyone ever hear that mock saying "Down with America! Hey buddy, can you get me a greencard?"
Yes I do read US news. His plan is to move them back from the DMZ, a few to Japan, some come home and the rest get cut.
The US plan is to fight 2 simultaneous wars and win. Not fight everyone forever. No empire in history has ever been able to do that.
Man, my posts are getting too long winded. I'm starting to bore myself.
Last note.
Adam Smith was a Scott who pretty well invented modern economics. Every nation has been affected by him.
Europeans created industrialization, Americans perfected mass production. I'll note that I think the Chinese invented printing.
My best hopes is that an Asian in the west finds the cure for cancer, that's affordable to everyone (not like that AIDS drug).
Adam Smith was a Scott who pretty well invented modern economics. Every nation has been affected by him.
Europeans created industrialization, Americans perfected mass production. I'll note that I think the Chinese invented printing.
My best hopes is that an Asian in the west finds the cure for cancer, that's affordable to everyone (not like that AIDS drug).
huu76,
A society that encouraged the immigration process and free competition is what made America great. The complex political system with attributes of a "republic" and "democratic" style that pursued the ideal of giving everyone with ambition a fair opportunity to compete and succeed fostered the environment for the nation to excel.
One interpretation of what fuels USA innovation and advancement in a number of fields is the immigration theory that the first wave of immigrants from any particular group. It is within this group where one can find most ambitious and most talented individuals who were blessed with the resources to make it to the USA, and subsequently helps USA improve.
That's the point I've been getting at. After 9/11, the immigration process is changing. The talent that fuels the USA is diminishing, because we won't let the talent into the country. These talented individual are going elsewhere. Maybe they will choose to immigrate to the EU or the PRC.
We are left with a population that??s gets lazier and lazier. That believe they are entitled to the "American Dream" for no work. Or they babble illogical nonsense about their family immigrating to the new world first which entitles them to something. (Sounds a lot like Europe)
They start blaming illegal immigrants, China??s pegged currency exchange rate, and the WTO lifting of the textile quota in January 2005 for all their problems. But the real source of these problems is that Americans are not competitive in the global marketplace.
Illegal immigrants are one of the simplest problems to solve. Make them legal. Give them temporary status and tax them. But that??s not the problem. The problem is that there are jobs out there that Americans don??t want, because they are too full of themselves. Americans suffer from a face issue when they have to take on low skill jobs.
China pegged currency exchange rate is also BS. Export nations usually peg their currency, like Japan for instance, it is the nature of maximizing trade. But it is not like USA didn??t know China pegged its currency to the USA. China??s been doing this for 10 years now. The problem is that the USA is fiscally irresponsible handling the ??War against terror,?? but USA politicians don??t want to admit this, so they spew some BS.
If the RMB goes up 40% as they predict if a free trading currency system, then retail prices goes up 40% or more after mark up. This will hurt the average American, since cost of living will increase.
If the goal is the stimulate the American manufacturing sector because China made goods cost the same as USA made goods, that??s also BS. Because Americans don't want those jobs in the first place, and this will result in illegal immigrants taking these jobs or, as you mention before, those jobs will go to another cheap labor country, other than China. The average American doesn??t win on this.
Lastly, the textile quota problem, this was negotiating through the WTO that all members would not have a textile quota anymore 5 years ago. It is nothing new. USA employs 0.005% in textile manufacturing. This is not a large part of the labor market. The textile manufacturers have to become competitive so that consumer can benefit from lower cost. It is not helping the USA to engaging in trade barriers that restrict free trade.
I??m just citing examples in current events which are troubling because they all point to the fact USA is unable to compete in the marketplace.
No one doubts USA military might, but even that has its limits, and soldiers are pretty much useless in the marketplace. What are you going to do point a gun at China to demand they eat McDonald??s, drink Coke, and wear made in the USA t-shirts? Not going to happen,
The USA culture needs to change its culture to value education and compete in the new global economy. Or people with talent, ambition, and resources will start leaving, or worst yet, never have the opportunity to arrive.
A society that encouraged the immigration process and free competition is what made America great. The complex political system with attributes of a "republic" and "democratic" style that pursued the ideal of giving everyone with ambition a fair opportunity to compete and succeed fostered the environment for the nation to excel.
One interpretation of what fuels USA innovation and advancement in a number of fields is the immigration theory that the first wave of immigrants from any particular group. It is within this group where one can find most ambitious and most talented individuals who were blessed with the resources to make it to the USA, and subsequently helps USA improve.
That's the point I've been getting at. After 9/11, the immigration process is changing. The talent that fuels the USA is diminishing, because we won't let the talent into the country. These talented individual are going elsewhere. Maybe they will choose to immigrate to the EU or the PRC.
We are left with a population that??s gets lazier and lazier. That believe they are entitled to the "American Dream" for no work. Or they babble illogical nonsense about their family immigrating to the new world first which entitles them to something. (Sounds a lot like Europe)
They start blaming illegal immigrants, China??s pegged currency exchange rate, and the WTO lifting of the textile quota in January 2005 for all their problems. But the real source of these problems is that Americans are not competitive in the global marketplace.
Illegal immigrants are one of the simplest problems to solve. Make them legal. Give them temporary status and tax them. But that??s not the problem. The problem is that there are jobs out there that Americans don??t want, because they are too full of themselves. Americans suffer from a face issue when they have to take on low skill jobs.
China pegged currency exchange rate is also BS. Export nations usually peg their currency, like Japan for instance, it is the nature of maximizing trade. But it is not like USA didn??t know China pegged its currency to the USA. China??s been doing this for 10 years now. The problem is that the USA is fiscally irresponsible handling the ??War against terror,?? but USA politicians don??t want to admit this, so they spew some BS.
If the RMB goes up 40% as they predict if a free trading currency system, then retail prices goes up 40% or more after mark up. This will hurt the average American, since cost of living will increase.
If the goal is the stimulate the American manufacturing sector because China made goods cost the same as USA made goods, that??s also BS. Because Americans don't want those jobs in the first place, and this will result in illegal immigrants taking these jobs or, as you mention before, those jobs will go to another cheap labor country, other than China. The average American doesn??t win on this.
Lastly, the textile quota problem, this was negotiating through the WTO that all members would not have a textile quota anymore 5 years ago. It is nothing new. USA employs 0.005% in textile manufacturing. This is not a large part of the labor market. The textile manufacturers have to become competitive so that consumer can benefit from lower cost. It is not helping the USA to engaging in trade barriers that restrict free trade.
I??m just citing examples in current events which are troubling because they all point to the fact USA is unable to compete in the marketplace.
No one doubts USA military might, but even that has its limits, and soldiers are pretty much useless in the marketplace. What are you going to do point a gun at China to demand they eat McDonald??s, drink Coke, and wear made in the USA t-shirts? Not going to happen,
The USA culture needs to change its culture to value education and compete in the new global economy. Or people with talent, ambition, and resources will start leaving, or worst yet, never have the opportunity to arrive.
AC,
I agree with your point that the U.S. because (not entirely) 9/11, has been fiscally irresponsible (dot.bomb started before Bush). Your note about forcing people to chow down on Mcky D's is quite humourous.
Some things to ponder.
Do limiting student visas affect innovation, or does it just more effectively filter out the dummies? Enrollment may drop slightly, but the brightest still get here.
If domestic workers don't truly want these jobs, then why are workers complaining? Making illegals legal will encourage corps. to abuse labour laws even more. Suddenly labour pool doubles.
Japan may peg (not entirely because it does move) it's currency but unlike China, Japan's actions are beneficial for both sides. The real benefit in forcing China to free it's currency is the effect a drop in U.S. foreign accounts would have. Imagine if the 150 billion trade deficit shrank to 75? China is still competitive and the U.S. is more so. The current state has China trying to milk as much as it can by not engaging in free market practices.
Yes, I agree with you whole heartedly that the West (most notably the U.S./Canada) needs to change it's attitudes towards work and education (we need more Einsteins and less Eminems). I think it's too late for the Europeans. You can't entirely blame poor work habits over here on that though, after all, most Japanese cars sold here are built by us over here (Japanese processes are just better at the moment).
I agree with your point that the U.S. because (not entirely) 9/11, has been fiscally irresponsible (dot.bomb started before Bush). Your note about forcing people to chow down on Mcky D's is quite humourous.
Some things to ponder.
Do limiting student visas affect innovation, or does it just more effectively filter out the dummies? Enrollment may drop slightly, but the brightest still get here.
If domestic workers don't truly want these jobs, then why are workers complaining? Making illegals legal will encourage corps. to abuse labour laws even more. Suddenly labour pool doubles.
Japan may peg (not entirely because it does move) it's currency but unlike China, Japan's actions are beneficial for both sides. The real benefit in forcing China to free it's currency is the effect a drop in U.S. foreign accounts would have. Imagine if the 150 billion trade deficit shrank to 75? China is still competitive and the U.S. is more so. The current state has China trying to milk as much as it can by not engaging in free market practices.
Yes, I agree with you whole heartedly that the West (most notably the U.S./Canada) needs to change it's attitudes towards work and education (we need more Einsteins and less Eminems). I think it's too late for the Europeans. You can't entirely blame poor work habits over here on that though, after all, most Japanese cars sold here are built by us over here (Japanese processes are just better at the moment).
The textiles tariffs serve two purposes.
1. To satisfy producers in the South and domestic attitudes.
2. Act as a precursor to levying tariffs on high skill/paying manufacturing jobs (motors, electronics, fabrictation like furniture).
1. To satisfy producers in the South and domestic attitudes.
2. Act as a precursor to levying tariffs on high skill/paying manufacturing jobs (motors, electronics, fabrictation like furniture).
huu76,
It reduces the number of undergraduates and graduate students that can only help in advancement of acedemics in the USA. Either passively, by paying tuition, or actively ,by doing research. Student visa are handed out under the supervision of the Department of Homeland Security, they don't know the grades of the applicants, it is a quota system.
Because they believe in entitlement. Less work, more money type of attitudes.
Once they are legal, these workers can use the government infrastructure to make formal complaints against companies that abuse them. It is when the illegals work out side the system that they are vunerable to abuse, because the infrastructure doesn't recognize them and they fear deportation if they complain.
You are assuming that the labor pool will fill every available position out there. Like I keep mentioning the labor pool is selective about taking on low skill jobs at competitive global wages.
That's just an argument for a double standard. Both Japan and China pegs their currency. It is just that USA has more influence on Japan, and almost no influence over the PRC monetary policy. That's why this whole thing is being played out in the media.
Also note the Japanese car manufactures don't allow unions to be formed in their plants either in the USA.
1. They should have prepared for this 10 years ago. That's when the WTO informed every member that the textile quotas were being lifted. In addition like I mention before there are only a tiny tiny fraction of the USA labor market devoted to this industry. Why should the rest of America suffer paying higher retail prices, just so that a few lazy companies get to stay in business for a few more years? They had 10 years to invest in ways to become more competitive in the global marketplace, but instead they choose to be lazy and the free market was about to punish them for being lazy.
2. More protectionism and creating an environment for companies to become lazy. Definitely not how a leader of "Democracy and Free Markets" should act. This is an opportunity for USA to develop innovations in manufacturing process that is even cheaper than China. But instead it falls on its lazy butt.
| QUOTE |
| Do limiting student visas affect innovation, or does it just more effectively filter out the dummies? |
It reduces the number of undergraduates and graduate students that can only help in advancement of acedemics in the USA. Either passively, by paying tuition, or actively ,by doing research. Student visa are handed out under the supervision of the Department of Homeland Security, they don't know the grades of the applicants, it is a quota system.
| QUOTE |
| If domestic workers don't truly want these jobs, then why are workers complaining? |
Because they believe in entitlement. Less work, more money type of attitudes.
| QUOTE |
| Making illegals legal will encourage corps. to abuse labour laws even more. |
Once they are legal, these workers can use the government infrastructure to make formal complaints against companies that abuse them. It is when the illegals work out side the system that they are vunerable to abuse, because the infrastructure doesn't recognize them and they fear deportation if they complain.
| QUOTE |
| Suddenly labour pool doubles. |
You are assuming that the labor pool will fill every available position out there. Like I keep mentioning the labor pool is selective about taking on low skill jobs at competitive global wages.
| QUOTE |
| Japan may peg (not entirely because it does move) it's currency but unlike China, Japan's actions are beneficial for both sides. |
That's just an argument for a double standard. Both Japan and China pegs their currency. It is just that USA has more influence on Japan, and almost no influence over the PRC monetary policy. That's why this whole thing is being played out in the media.
| QUOTE |
| You can't entirely blame poor work habits over here on that though, after all, most Japanese cars sold here are built by us over here (Japanese processes are just better at the moment). |
Also note the Japanese car manufactures don't allow unions to be formed in their plants either in the USA.
| QUOTE |
| The textiles tariffs serve two purposes. 1. To satisfy producers in the South and domestic attitudes. 2. Act as a precursor to levying tariffs on high skill/paying manufacturing jobs (motors, electronics, fabrictation like furniture). |
1. They should have prepared for this 10 years ago. That's when the WTO informed every member that the textile quotas were being lifted. In addition like I mention before there are only a tiny tiny fraction of the USA labor market devoted to this industry. Why should the rest of America suffer paying higher retail prices, just so that a few lazy companies get to stay in business for a few more years? They had 10 years to invest in ways to become more competitive in the global marketplace, but instead they choose to be lazy and the free market was about to punish them for being lazy.
2. More protectionism and creating an environment for companies to become lazy. Definitely not how a leader of "Democracy and Free Markets" should act. This is an opportunity for USA to develop innovations in manufacturing process that is even cheaper than China. But instead it falls on its lazy butt.
| QUOTE |
| Krazy, But are these engineers of the same caliber? For example, I know it's a lot easier to get designated an engineer in the U.S. than it is in Canada. My friend travels down to Indiana, Michigan, Alabama and Georgia a lot for work and everybody down there who's had 2 yrs of school is called an engineer. Up here you need a minimum of 4 years plus 2 years work experience. Before that, you're an engineer in training, or a technologist/technician. How's R&D in those two country's schools. Regurgitating everything the west has developed makes you a great "grunt" so to speak, but I don't think they'll be as cutting edge. Of course, I've never been to either, so I can't say. |
People who've had 2 years of school probably got Associate's degrees, and those people aren't really 'engineers' so to speak. Many foreign engineers in the USA have at least a masters degree, if not a doctorate (since foreigners usually have to have higher degrees of education to get work visas). I go to school with a bunch of Chinese and Indian masters and doctorate students, and these people are some of the smartest people I have ever met in my entire life.
The R&D that goes on in China and India are of lower quality, on average, than in the west because they do not have the academic infrastructure or the massive amounts of funds to dedicate to R&D. However, the creativity level is extremely high among these two countries. Many of them go to Europe, Australia, or the USA to study because the local environment is still catching up. However, many of them go back to their countries upon graduation and become professors, and they initiate change in the education system so that Indian and Chinese universities are slowly but surely becoming world class research institutes.
As an aside, foreign students who get student visas to come to the USA are encouraged to go back to their countries after their studies are complete, by the US government. That's why they restrict the number who can stay and receive work visas and green cards, ultimately. For masters or PhD graduates, the restrictions are often easier to get by because the US government wants these highly trained professionals to stay and contribute.
AC Dropout:
I think the person who wrote the article wasn't familiar with China's history that much. You know as well as I that China was Rome/Greece of Asia & every Asian nation (Europe also borrowed a lot from China - much more than she borrowed from the West - the Chinese taught the Europeans how to be more civilized by eating on porcelain, drinking tea & wearing silk/cashmere - that's why the French admire Chinese culture very much) looked up to her & wanted to emulate her - she's just been asleep for a little while but as Napoleon said "When China wakes, she will shake the World." China had one of the first & most advanced civil service in history .The Thai kings let the ethnic Chinese run the civil service there even until today (many of Thailand's prime ministers are Chinese or part Chinese) because they were so much more experienced at it. China has changed faster than any country of it's size in the history of mankind - people who don't realize she's changed so rapidly must have been asleep or living in a cave for the last 26 years. Communism is actually dying quickly in China because capitalism has had so much influence on the country. Like the article said it took decades for Europe/America to achieve the growth that China did in about 5-10 years. Because of it's population size it will take it longer to be a democracy (Asian style though) than the smaller Asian countries. They are socialism in a Chinese style because of the huge capitalists influence.
The U.S. forced the Japanese yen (& later Taiwan) to appreciate a lot in the early 80s because they had such a huge trade deficit with them - this was the only to balance it. Plus Japan is a rubber stamp for the U.S. because the U.S. defeated, occupied & built up their economy (but many of the younger people don't realize this) - they always have to listen to the U.S. Every third World/developing country has cheap labor & China doesn't even have the cheapest (India is twice as cheap & Bangladesh is 4 times cheaper) but companies prefer to manufacture in China because they have some of the most modern/efficient factories in the World - even with their higher wages they still produce more. China's labor cost is going up because people are getting more educated & some people are making more money growing crops so factory owners have had to offer more incentives. Every body know that China's greatest asset is her people because they are so driven, hard working, focused on education, entrepreneurial & flexible. Recently I heard that Filipino domestic servants are starting to work in China like they have for many years in H.K., Taiwan, Singapore, Middle East. Do you know anything about this? It's a very western mentality for people to be so impatient & expect China to change overnight when they have already changed so much in such a short period of time. Obviously a few Asians in the West love to bash their own people & culture because they think that just because they're a U.S. or Canadian citizen the White majority will accept them as one of their own if they do this. Why do certain people make all these strong comments when they haven't even been to China or even know a lot about her history? Some people still have a colonized persons mentality/identity issue & they don't even know it.
Don't you think the U.S. could abandon Taiwan anytime like they did with the Shah of Iran & Marcos in the Phillippines? The U.S. just wants to sell them arms & sit back & watch Chinese people kill each other. I don't think the American people want the U.S. to get involved. We have enough problems here. The current Taiwan pro indepence leadership doesn't care about the people - all they care about is retaining their position & power - they would have lost the election if it wasn't for that phony/staged gun shot wound. Even Jackie Chan called it a joke. Plus China isn't interested in invading Taiwan because it doesn't benefit either side - they are economically married. These posts have been getting way too long recently.
I think Taiwan is a good indicator of how great PRC sphere of influence is getting. Once ROC normalizes realationships with PRC, it will show USA dimishing influence in the region.
Definition,
"The H-1B is a nonimmigrant classification used by an alien who will be employed temporarily in a specialty occupation or as a fashion model of distinguished merit and ability." The gov't issues them once a company sponsers them. Do you think companies are going to sponser anything less than the elite? Student visas are not H-1B, and they still have to meet the academic requirements of the institution. People can still squeak in.
AC,
There are benefits and drawbacks for both workers and business in using legal/illegal labour. You can make more, but taxes even it out. Illegals get abused, but laws also allow this (in Ontario, most don't but employers can have you work 60hrs/week w/o OT). How innovative is it to sell your people cheap? Apparently they're a dime a dozen over in China.
Scrolls,
Your last comment emphasizes that the best stay in the U.S. (Western derived Masters/Ph.D).
Enlightened,
You think I'm an Asian basher? I mainly base my views on what's been proven, not just purely on hype and conjecture. I'm Chinese, I view everything longterm (I still stress, wait until the true effects of the one-child policy kick in during the next 20yrs or so and they stagnate). All this money being dumped into China will yield what for North America? 4x the people (and declining) with 1/10th the purchasing power, and that's optimistic. Cars aren't going to sell for $500 each just to accomodate China's lower incomes. A negative side effect is you're basically financing a country economic confidence to think it can beat you globally. Remember, without American jobs, China would still be thinking instead of doing. I commend China for being able to pull the wool over corporate America's eyes though. I did mention this in one of the blogs here. It'll be an Asian lead U.S. beating China. Third generation and beyond immigrants will view China as a competitor, not a companion.
"The H-1B is a nonimmigrant classification used by an alien who will be employed temporarily in a specialty occupation or as a fashion model of distinguished merit and ability." The gov't issues them once a company sponsers them. Do you think companies are going to sponser anything less than the elite? Student visas are not H-1B, and they still have to meet the academic requirements of the institution. People can still squeak in.
AC,
There are benefits and drawbacks for both workers and business in using legal/illegal labour. You can make more, but taxes even it out. Illegals get abused, but laws also allow this (in Ontario, most don't but employers can have you work 60hrs/week w/o OT). How innovative is it to sell your people cheap? Apparently they're a dime a dozen over in China.
Scrolls,
Your last comment emphasizes that the best stay in the U.S. (Western derived Masters/Ph.D).
Enlightened,
You think I'm an Asian basher? I mainly base my views on what's been proven, not just purely on hype and conjecture. I'm Chinese, I view everything longterm (I still stress, wait until the true effects of the one-child policy kick in during the next 20yrs or so and they stagnate). All this money being dumped into China will yield what for North America? 4x the people (and declining) with 1/10th the purchasing power, and that's optimistic. Cars aren't going to sell for $500 each just to accomodate China's lower incomes. A negative side effect is you're basically financing a country economic confidence to think it can beat you globally. Remember, without American jobs, China would still be thinking instead of doing. I commend China for being able to pull the wool over corporate America's eyes though. I did mention this in one of the blogs here. It'll be an Asian lead U.S. beating China. Third generation and beyond immigrants will view China as a competitor, not a companion.
China has had dramatic economic change in the last 20 years, it's about to have dramatic change in another area too.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2...tent_367466.htm
It's going to be a difficult road to navigate, for anyone tasked with it.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2...tent_367466.htm
It's going to be a difficult road to navigate, for anyone tasked with it.
Oh man, you people really want to go back? They're getting more and more headaches. I think India has more girls than boys but not that disproportionately.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2...tent_329290.htm
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2...tent_329290.htm
| QUOTE |
| There are benefits and drawbacks for both workers and business in using legal/illegal labour. You can make more, but taxes even it out. Illegals get abused, but laws also allow this (in Ontario, most don't but employers can have you work 60hrs/week w/o OT). How innovative is it to sell your people cheap? Apparently they're a dime a dozen over in China. |
I can't make sense of this paragraph. Please take the time to elaborate and construct an argument so that there can be fruitful discussion.
As for you next two articles. I think there is a positive side to it. Those papers are the official outlets of the PRC. It means the PRC understands there is an issue and is addressing it in a constructive manner. If it was a foriegn paper making the comments and the PRC denying the state of affairs, then I would be concern if the government was responding quickly enough to address the issue.
AC,
YOu (or someone did) mentioned that everybody should be legal to fill jobs nobody wants. If everyone was legal, corporations would be able to get a higher # of workers to work for minimum. How does this help the current legal workers? If they stay illegal, legal workers are in shorter demand, but illegal workers can afford to work for less because they don't pay taxes. In either case, corporations win out. Difference is that, say a job that pays a little more than minimum that an illegal can't do will draw a lower wage if suddenly twice as many people are legally allowed to do it. To an illegal, it doesn't matter, they end up with the same net earnings. In this context I'm assuming Mexico mainly, but most probably don't have living in the U.S. as a top priority, only working there.
I went astray in assuming illegals were only Mexicans, so this doesn't really make any sense when we're talking about China.
About the population growth. It's already been 30 years. Assuming they relax the law in 20yrs, there's half a century that's going to pretty well stop it's growth. In that time, other countries will catch up and the rest will have increased their lead. I think Chinese people might be headed to the same fate as Brazilians. Big but not all that wealthy. They also have to deal with the disproprtionate male/female ration which will undoubtedly be worsened by overseas marriages. (i.e. I'll be generous and use $5K annual income. That may be great for the Chinese, but it pales to other industrialized countries like S.Corea, Taiwan etc.). Mainland Chinese men are going to have a difficult time competing. It sounds materialistic but it's happening already.
An aside,
I just watched this show on discovery channel about some national highschool level science fair convention. Anyway, some of the experiments these 15-18yo kids were doing gives me hope (they're also from multi-ethnic backgrounds) about kids overhere. They're a lot smarter and innovative than I had given them credit for.
YOu (or someone did) mentioned that everybody should be legal to fill jobs nobody wants. If everyone was legal, corporations would be able to get a higher # of workers to work for minimum. How does this help the current legal workers? If they stay illegal, legal workers are in shorter demand, but illegal workers can afford to work for less because they don't pay taxes. In either case, corporations win out. Difference is that, say a job that pays a little more than minimum that an illegal can't do will draw a lower wage if suddenly twice as many people are legally allowed to do it. To an illegal, it doesn't matter, they end up with the same net earnings. In this context I'm assuming Mexico mainly, but most probably don't have living in the U.S. as a top priority, only working there.
I went astray in assuming illegals were only Mexicans, so this doesn't really make any sense when we're talking about China.
About the population growth. It's already been 30 years. Assuming they relax the law in 20yrs, there's half a century that's going to pretty well stop it's growth. In that time, other countries will catch up and the rest will have increased their lead. I think Chinese people might be headed to the same fate as Brazilians. Big but not all that wealthy. They also have to deal with the disproprtionate male/female ration which will undoubtedly be worsened by overseas marriages. (i.e. I'll be generous and use $5K annual income. That may be great for the Chinese, but it pales to other industrialized countries like S.Corea, Taiwan etc.). Mainland Chinese men are going to have a difficult time competing. It sounds materialistic but it's happening already.
An aside,
I just watched this show on discovery channel about some national highschool level science fair convention. Anyway, some of the experiments these 15-18yo kids were doing gives me hope (they're also from multi-ethnic backgrounds) about kids overhere. They're a lot smarter and innovative than I had given them credit for.
Did you guys here about the outrageous incident that happened on April 25th on 101.5 FM New Jersey ? Two guys on the show who call themselves the Jersey Guys had a conversation & made very racist comments about Asian-Americans & inferring that Americans shouldn't be voting for Asians in elections & Asians/Chinese should never dictate the outcome of an American election even if their #s have quadrupled in that New Jersey city, only Americans should . One of the guys also called AAs "Damn Orientals & Indians." I was emailed this info by the 80-20 Initiative (they are an AA organization founded by S.B Woo, Chang Lin-Tien & other very prominent Chinese -Americans to give AAs more political clout in the U.S. & also fight discrimination against AAs) More AAs need to support them - check out their website for info on how. For a transcript of the 101.FM show & the names of the two guys check out http://www.80-20initiative.net/jerseyguyspdf - this is the reality for AAs & smaller minorities in America & if you plan on living here you better fight for justice. If these guys can get away with this without consequences then people will always feel that AAs are timid & our interests don't count. If we can't handle the small injustices then how can we deal with the big ones? They would have never made comments like this about African-Americans or Hispanic- Americans. Apparently, Corporations such as Hyundai, Cingular Wireless & Bank of America have already withdrawn their sponsorship. However, the CEOs , chairmans & presidents of more companies such as Verizon, Comcast & Dishnetwork need to hear AA protest in an effort to get them to withdraw their sponsorship from 101.5FM New Jersey for their blatant racism or we won't buy their products anymore.
I'm fully aware of China's aging problem & their other problems, nobody said it's perfect & because they are a huge country they will have more challenges than others, but at least they are aware & are trying to do something about it. The U.S. population is getting pretty big & we will have our challenges as well (including a larger & larger percentage of uneducated people & increasing crime). China has one the fastest growing automobile consumer markets & they pay more for the car than a lot of Americans because their tax (like many Asian countries) is equal to the price of the car. Designer fashion is 30% higher than Hong Kong, however, European designers have been expanding & opening new stores like crazy, even in 2nd & 3rd tier cities, due to China's rising middle & affluent class. Lower income men will have to be less picky about their choice of mates compared to their higher income country men. The 1 child policy didn't apply to every Chinese citizen & they have revised it in recent years so that people could have a 2nd child several years after giving birth to the first one.
As Asian Americans grow in number, I'm afraid that the number of people who are xenophobic about us might also increase. That is, up until a 'critical' point in numbers is reached, but I'm not sure if AA population the US will ever be that much.
huu76
Remember we already established that the North American workforce is not global competitive at this time. Your trying to explain an artificial environment which leads to high income for low skill jobs, which isn?t even happening because illegal immigrants are in fact working and sustaining a lifestyle here in the North America.
If you look at the problem from a pragmatic view it doesn?t make sense at all. First off illegal immigrants are already being hired in various industry in North American. The government is not collecting from the employee or from the employer contribution (in the USA ? of Social Security, Federal, and State are the employer responsibility) side of the tax equation. By making them legal the government has another source of revenue to continue maintain the infrastructure of the country.
First off illegal immigrants are already working in the job market, competing against documented workers. The only advantage an illegal has is that the employer is not responsible for making employer contribution tax payments on undocumented workers.
I argue the free market has already determined the salary level through free competition in the market place. If a documented worked and an illegal worker both are willing to work at the same salary level, then I believe employer would be willing to hire the documented worker and pay the additional employer contribution tax just so that there is no risk to the company if they are discovered hiring illegal immigrants.
However, that is not the case. So the only logical answers are either the documented workers are not willing to take the jobs. Or the illegal immigrants are even a more attractive choice for the employer because of their work ethics and dedication to the job.
In either case by giving illegal immigrants temporary status to gain employment only helps the situation, not hurt it.
As for your other points, it is too early to say about what effect the sex ratio will be. Not all people marry in the same age group. Not all people get married once. Not all Chinese will marry Chinese. Not all people want marry, let alone the opposite sex. Males die off faster than females in general. So give it 15 years and see what happens.
The real numbers there are more middle class Chinese than the entire population of the USA (240 mil). EU and SE Asia court the new middle class as the new tourist groups. They are the reason why car companies and every international brand are trying to get into the China market. Corporations that are driven by profits do not assess the ?wealth? of the Chinese individual the same way you do.
The Intel Science compete is also planning to go international, so instead of 65,000 applicants in the USA. The future competition will have a million applicants worldwide. I suspect many of the new applicants will be from Asia.
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| If everyone was legal, corporations would be able to get a higher # of workers to work for minimum. How does this help the current legal workers? |
Remember we already established that the North American workforce is not global competitive at this time. Your trying to explain an artificial environment which leads to high income for low skill jobs, which isn?t even happening because illegal immigrants are in fact working and sustaining a lifestyle here in the North America.
If you look at the problem from a pragmatic view it doesn?t make sense at all. First off illegal immigrants are already being hired in various industry in North American. The government is not collecting from the employee or from the employer contribution (in the USA ? of Social Security, Federal, and State are the employer responsibility) side of the tax equation. By making them legal the government has another source of revenue to continue maintain the infrastructure of the country.
| QUOTE |
| Difference is that, say a job that pays a little more than minimum that an illegal can't do will draw a lower wage if suddenly twice as many people are legally allowed to do it. To an illegal, it doesn't matter, they end up with the same net earnings. |
First off illegal immigrants are already working in the job market, competing against documented workers. The only advantage an illegal has is that the employer is not responsible for making employer contribution tax payments on undocumented workers.
I argue the free market has already determined the salary level through free competition in the market place. If a documented worked and an illegal worker both are willing to work at the same salary level, then I believe employer would be willing to hire the documented worker and pay the additional employer contribution tax just so that there is no risk to the company if they are discovered hiring illegal immigrants.
However, that is not the case. So the only logical answers are either the documented workers are not willing to take the jobs. Or the illegal immigrants are even a more attractive choice for the employer because of their work ethics and dedication to the job.
In either case by giving illegal immigrants temporary status to gain employment only helps the situation, not hurt it.
As for your other points, it is too early to say about what effect the sex ratio will be. Not all people marry in the same age group. Not all people get married once. Not all Chinese will marry Chinese. Not all people want marry, let alone the opposite sex. Males die off faster than females in general. So give it 15 years and see what happens.
The real numbers there are more middle class Chinese than the entire population of the USA (240 mil). EU and SE Asia court the new middle class as the new tourist groups. They are the reason why car companies and every international brand are trying to get into the China market. Corporations that are driven by profits do not assess the ?wealth? of the Chinese individual the same way you do.
The Intel Science compete is also planning to go international, so instead of 65,000 applicants in the USA. The future competition will have a million applicants worldwide. I suspect many of the new applicants will be from Asia.
Doesn't recent current events disturb people on how far the USA is falling behind the world in genetic research. The USA was one of the leader in Human Geneom project. But with our political leadership firmly oppose to stem cell research and advance cloning techniques
Bush Vows to Veto Measure Easing Stem Cell Restriction
Where as the South Koreans get full government support and are making huge progress in this area of science.
Bush Vows to Veto Measure Easing Stem Cell Restriction
Where as the South Koreans get full government support and are making huge progress in this area of science.
AC,
Again, I may be mistaken but you or whoever said all illegals should be made legal. The gov't collects more taxes but it has to pay more for social services. Then again, the U.S. services may be less costly than what we get in Canada, which I think is too much due to inefficiencies.
The population issue is one that does bother me, I feel for them because I think it could've been avoided. It'll be a regional problem if that number grows too big, say around 40+ million.
The U.S. might be in a rut for now, but Bush won't be in office forever and not all Republicans are against genetic research (how else would it even make it far enough to get vetoed). That is one thing that I don't agree with Bush, he's too Ned Flanders.
Enlightened,
These two dingbats don't represent every American? Minorities get away with a lot too, look at all the racism claims. Personally, I'd rather get hired because I beat everyone, not because I had it bad and feel entitled to some bonus points. It's not because you're "whatever", it's because you're an "insert cuss here".
Asians probably won't increase past 10% in total (we're 3% now right?) but we are getting more representation even if it's not mainstream. I noticed that there seems to be a lot of Asian soldiers in the U.S. army in Iraq, also do a search on U.S.S. Chun Hoon. They didn't have to but they did. Someday it could even be a carrier.
Anyway, I'm off for the long weekend (Canadian). See you all in a few days.
Again, I may be mistaken but you or whoever said all illegals should be made legal. The gov't collects more taxes but it has to pay more for social services. Then again, the U.S. services may be less costly than what we get in Canada, which I think is too much due to inefficiencies.
The population issue is one that does bother me, I feel for them because I think it could've been avoided. It'll be a regional problem if that number grows too big, say around 40+ million.
The U.S. might be in a rut for now, but Bush won't be in office forever and not all Republicans are against genetic research (how else would it even make it far enough to get vetoed). That is one thing that I don't agree with Bush, he's too Ned Flanders.
Enlightened,
These two dingbats don't represent every American? Minorities get away with a lot too, look at all the racism claims. Personally, I'd rather get hired because I beat everyone, not because I had it bad and feel entitled to some bonus points. It's not because you're "whatever", it's because you're an "insert cuss here".
Asians probably won't increase past 10% in total (we're 3% now right?) but we are getting more representation even if it's not mainstream. I noticed that there seems to be a lot of Asian soldiers in the U.S. army in Iraq, also do a search on U.S.S. Chun Hoon. They didn't have to but they did. Someday it could even be a carrier.
Anyway, I'm off for the long weekend (Canadian). See you all in a few days.
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