Comparing Asian Nationalities | Asian American Poll

COMPARING ASIAN NATIONALITIES
(Updated Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 05:20:50 PM to reflect the 100 most recent valid responses.)

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WHAT YOU SAY

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To Hafti and Annam Guy,

From what I've learned, the Viet are not descendants of the Yueh in Southern China. The Viet did not migrate from South Southeast China but rather are people who had settled at the Red River Delta around Hanoi until the Chinese tried to invade them. There were many Chinese invasions some succeeded but the Vietnamese were able to regain independence.

The Viet should not reclaimed the area of Southern China occupied by the Yueh because it was never ours in the first place. The Viet are not the Yueh but rather a people related to them. As a matter of fact, the Yueh had mixed with the Han to form the moderned Southern Chinese who speaked Cantonese.

Where do you get the fact that 30% of Vietnamese are part Chinese. There is no justification for it and there no way they could traced your roots that accurately. However, a recent census conducted in Vietnam reported that in a population of 80 million there are 90% ethnic Vietnamese, 3% ethnic Chinese, and the remaining consist of the hill tribes, Khmer, Thai, and Cham. This numbers indicated that Vietnam and the Vietnamese are homogenous with relatively few mixing and fast assimilation of other ethnics with the Vietnamese.

There are also Vietnamese living in Cambodia, Thailand, and Laos. They are spread all over Southeast Asia numbering in the hundred of thousands. There are also Vietnamese living abroad in Australia, Europe, and United States adding up to about 3 million. As a result, they are not only concentrated in Vietnam but are densely spread out to all part of the World.
Le Loi Tuesday, May 28, 2002 at 08:53:03 (PDT)

I know that the Thais are racially related to the Chinese, since China and Thailand are right next to each other. I also think that Thais, Burmese, and I guess Laosians are decendents of the Tibetans. I don't know if that is true.
chinalova Tuesday, May 28, 2002 at 05:35:02 (PDT)

Thai, Lao and Cambodian languages are more closely related to Indian langiage than they are to Chinese or Sino-Tibetan. Or they are a blend of both but not entirely related to sino-tibetan language. remember that a language can borrow a lot of words, expressions from other languages so we couldn't conclude so rashly that one language is close to another one simply based on several similarities we see. judge the closeness not only based on similar pronounciation, but also writing, grammatical structure. Cambodian sounds monosyllabic and a little similar to chinese while in fact it has no relation with chinese language.
hi Tuesday, May 28, 2002 at 03:55:16 (PDT)

well based on the statistic made by a vietnamese emperor 50-100 years ago, 30 % of vietnamese are part chinese, 20% part khmer and the rest are pure viets. And No cham mixing was mentioned. i think VERY few vietnamese has cham blood. or probably when they said 20 % part khmer, the word khmer means both cambodian or cham???
vietnamese language Tuesday, May 28, 2002 at 00:55:14 (PDT)

Sino-Tibetan:

Vietnamese has a few Mom-khmer elements however it is used very differently with cambodian language, in terms of both writing and grammatical structure. It was closer to Han. Vietnamese language has MUCH MORE Sinicized or Han words than khmer words.
vietnamese language Tuesday, May 28, 2002 at 00:51:16 (PDT)

Just a curious question:

What was the relation of the Yueh (ancestors of the Vietnamese) with the Chinese in the Huang Ho River valley region? I heard that they were different tribes of the same origins that broke away from each other in the distant past? How about Thais, Laotians and Tibetans?
Rick Tuesday, May 28, 2002 at 00:31:29 (PDT)

Southern China was lost by the ancestors of the Vietnamese people was due to the shift of balance and power in classical northern China (Chung-yuan).

The Qin conquered parts of southern China and even into modern Vietnam. They established garrisons, but little Chinese settled there.

After the fall of the Han, nomadic Turkic tribes forced large groups of families and clans to resettle in the south. Thus the Yueh were pushed further south.

By the Tang, the last of the Yueh were conquered. A great number of Yueh were slaughtered during this time, along with Arabs and Persians in Guangdong.

Today, the Cantonese still refer to their language and opera as being from the "Yueh."

How much of the present-day Cantonese, Toisan, Hakka, Chiu-Chow and Fukien people are descendants of the Yueh, we really don't know? They are most likely mixed breeds between Han Chinese and proto-Vietnamese. Even the Mandarin speaking people of southwest China (Yunnan, northern Guangxi, Guizhou, Hunan) have lots of Lolo-Miao (a kindred race to the Yueh) blood.

The Yueh in Guangdong became Chinese because they did indeed mix with the Han Chinese, while the Yueh in Vietnam continued with their identity withlasting conquest and colonization.

We Cantonese call ourselves "Tang yun" (people of Tang) because it was the Tang who fully conquered and settled Guangdong and some of my ancestors were perhaps really people of Tang who fled south into the Yueh lands of Guangdong.

Had it not been for the French and Japanese, Vietnam and Korea may still have been part of China (just look at Tibet, Inner Mongolia and Xinjiang). But, they would have fought off the Chinese regardless. Look at what happened at the end of World War II. The Japanese evacuated, and the allies asked Chiang Kai-Shek to send in troops to re-occupy Vietnam for the French. The Chinese troops were pelted with stones as soon as they marched to Hanoi (despite the fact that Ho Chi Minh once studied under Sun Yat-sen and Chiang Kai-shek in Canton, China). This hate for Chinese goes back to the earliest days.
Jeff Tuesday, May 28, 2002 at 00:29:03 (PDT)

Hafti,

Are those Chinese villages in north Vietnam still in existence? Are they Cantonese speaking or Mandarin speaking?

There are still many isolated hill tribes in Guangdong and Guangxi. I am not sure if they are able to converse with Vietnamese people today? But, I am sure they are one of the descendants of those many Yueh tribes.

Cassy Tuesday, May 28, 2002 at 00:10:28 (PDT)

Hafti,

I would not be surprised that the ancient Yueh peoples had contact or may have even settled in parts of southern Korea and Japan. It is very evident that some south Koreans and most Japanese have short and slim body frames.

Was it these Yueh who introduced rice culture into Korea and Japan?

I like that story about the Vietnamese prince settling in Korea. Most Koreans I know have prejudice towards Southeast Asians. This will show that they have that Southeast Asian in them too.
don Monday, May 27, 2002 at 23:59:55 (PDT)

>>>arabian women tend to have thick eyebrows, large eyes some have crooked nose. they're beautiful but i don't think they possess crisp and delicate features. Scandinavian, Japanese and korean women seem to possess very fine and delicate features.<<<

yuenli,

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Middle Eastern women can be ravishingly beautiful. Syrian and Persian women are one of the more beautiful women I have seen, especially those with light skin, black hair, large eyes and prominent nose. They tend to have smaller chins than women of other races. And, they are well endowed in the right spots.

On the average, I have seen more beautiful Middle Eastern women than I have blondes or even East Asian women.

I know it Monday, May 27, 2002 at 23:47:32 (PDT)

Cantonese and southern Italians share many characteristics:

Both are apolitical and very local oriented. For them, the family is the nation.

Both are easily excited and voluble types.

Both have a penchant for organized crime.

Chow-mein and spaghetti both came from the same source.

where the similarities lay Monday, May 27, 2002 at 21:54:09 (PDT)

"The native language of Vietnam itself was once widely believed to be a Sino-Tibetan language and many thought that it shared similarities with the Cantonese dialect (because of the high number of tones). It turns out that Vietnamese is an independent language or more closer to the Mon-Khmer (Cambodians) than it is to Sino-Tibetan."

That's not true. Vietnamese language is very differnt from Mon-Khmer and Sino-Tibetan.

truth Monday, May 27, 2002 at 21:40:49 (PDT)

pad thai:

no Sino-Tibetan don't look japanese or korean at all. They may look chinese but the only resemblance is the eyes.
Tai Monday, May 27, 2002 at 21:32:33 (PDT)

To Tri,
I would say no they weren't the Yueh, they're culture was stretched along the southwestern area of china, and the yueh were streched out along southeastern china. The yueh and 'miao' or 'hmong' were recorded as different people. So it isn't very highly believed that the hmong came from the Yueh at all.
General Viet Monday, May 27, 2002 at 20:11:31 (PDT)

To Tri,

WOW, i just checked and my Hmong came from mongolia is JUST one theory. The hmong history isn't welly recorded, thus their origins are unknown. But here are the three theories.

1. Theory of Mesopotemian Origin: This theory holds that Hmong people originated in the Mesopotemia region which encompasses present-day Iraq and Syria in the Middle East. This theory was introduced by Savina, a French Catholic Missionary who studied Hmong culture and history in Laos and Vietnam. After several years of research, Savina argued that the ancestors of the Hmong were a subgroup of the Turanians, an ethnic group forced out of the region by the Aryans. According to this theory, the ancestors of the Hmong then migrated from central Asia through Turkestan, Russia, Siberia, Mongolia, Manchuria, Honan, Tibet, and the plains of Yellow River.

2. Theory of Ultimate Southern Origin: This theory was advanced by Eickstedt, an expert on Hmong history. This theory holds that the Hmong originated in southwestern China or present-day Myanmar (Burma) and Tibet before migrating further into China as far north as the Yellow River.

3. The Theory of China Origin: Many experts on Hmong history argue that the Hmong were in China before the Chinese because it is the Chinese who mention the Hmong in their history as the "Miao". The Hmong had already occupied the Yellow River basin by the twenty-seventh century B.C. The historian Geddes estimates that the Hmong were driven off the plains of the Yellow River between 2700 and 2300 B.C. The theory of China origin probably has the most support among historians.

4. The Theory of Russian Origin: The theory of Russian origin was advanced by Larteguy who researched the Hmong in Southeast Asia in the 1950s. Larteguy argued that the Hmong at one time had occupied the huge Siberian plain around Lake Baikal located in Russia north of Mongolia.

But NONE of these theories say they are from the YUEH, and the chinese, and many conflicts came along the way. Most of these theories state that the Hmong live in southwestern china. The Yueh lived in Southeastern china.
General Viet Monday, May 27, 2002 at 20:04:37 (PDT)

To: where the similarities lay,

Very deep observation. I agree with you 100%.

One more thing, we, Vietnamese, are proud because our ancestors, general Tran Hung Dao, defeated the Mogolians three times! Even Middle Kingdom (China) failed to stop them.
An Nam Guy Monday, May 27, 2002 at 19:45:05 (PDT)

Regarding some Arabs getting shipwrecked off a coast in Shilla(and possibly having settled down in Korea):

Why not? Anything is possible I guess. After all, there are some Koreans with big/hooked noses. However, I doubt if they brought any women with them. Then again, you never know although there is no way for us to find out about it...
One Korean Man Monday, May 27, 2002 at 19:43:51 (PDT)

Opps, in one of the paragraphs i typed it should have been, "why are there villages which are 100% ethnic chinese in the north if they mixed so well, and the relationship was SO good that they live side by side, you think in the north where way more then half is viet you think they would have no problem mixing, but from An Nam Guy he shows us ten villages of 100% chinese. There must be a problem in relationship thus in not mixing well, especially if the chinese were around that area for a while already." But my mistake was using vietnamese 100% ethnic instead of chinese.

Also if you pick something like that up, try to make it make sense especially if i'm referring to someones post it would easily be traced to the source or true meaning.
General Viet Monday, May 27, 2002 at 19:09:21 (PDT)

Many new interesting postings:

Yes, one of the Korean kings in ancient times did marry an Indian princess (I tend to believe she was more of a dark-skinned Dravidian stock from southern part of Indian subcontintent rather than of a light-skinned Aryan tribe just becasue it was easier to set sail from such a locale vs. the northern half), maybe 1500 years ago or so, and had many "beautiful" children with her. I'm not sure how many children they had. But, presently there are at least hundreds of thousands -- if not a few millions -- who claim their ancestry back to this particular Korean king and his Indian princess wife. Well, what's the effect of one Indian princess from 1500 years ago on the overall Korean genetic stock? Very small if not totally negligible...

That's why I tend to believe there might have been other cases of undocumented intermixing taken place between Koreans and Indians or Dravidians from ancient times -- who really knows and who really cares -- because to this day some Korean natives still clearly show a few trace of Aryan or Dravidian physical features in them although looking overwhelmingly Korean. One Indian princess alone from 1500 years back cannot leave such distinctive physical imprints in many of modern day Korean descendants, you know.

Anyway, because of certain ambiguity of foreign racial origins, there might have been some elements of Scythian strain (a branch of Indo-European speaking, white-skinned Persian racial stock) mixed in among earlier-day Koreans too as some Korean physical anthropologists/scholars like to claim. The effects if any? Once again, very small I believe...

Definitely some archaic Ainu blood got mixed into overall Korean population although there were significantly fewer number of these people present on Korean peninsula vs. Japan when the first waves of great Mongoloid migrations took place in North East Asia...

BTW, I saw some photos of a few "pure-blooded" Ainus dating back 150 or so years ago, and boy, they completely blew me away. Not counting their sickly abundant amount of facial and body hairs, they looked "completely European.", particulary resembling those magnanimously-looking old Russian patriarchs. I mean, these European-looking Ainus of Japan had well-shaped Nordic-type head with high forehead, long oval-shaped face with a strong jaw, pale white-skin, long wavy/curly hair(very fine, not coarse in texture), light-colored eyes (blue, green, hazel as the author wrote) - and yes with European/Caucasian eye sockets, light-brownish hairs, very handsome straight nose, etc. I couldn't distingish them from an average white guy from medieval Europe. They certainly looked different from other more dominant strain of "pure-blooded" Ainus who looked somewhat Australoids in appearance. Of course, modern day Ainus in Japan look nothing like either European-looking Ainus or Australoid-looking Ainus of the past; they look overwhelmingly Mongoloid after many generations of intermarriages with local Japanese...

Anyway, enough of this stuff for me. We can talk for days or months on how Koreans/Japanese (or Chinese) got some little bit of this blood or that blood from other racial stocks, but it doesn't change the fact that three nationalities look predominantly Mongoloid if anything at all...

Regarding Mongols/Huns/Turks/ETC.:

Okay, maybe some narrow-minded white scholars/researchers/writers in academia have been guilty of being Eurocentric and haven't given enough of good credits to these people. I mean just look at us! Koreans tend to be Koreancentric, Chinese tend to be Sinocentric, and so on, regarding same source of history/events, often in retaliation against some politically incorrect/prejudiced or absurd claims thrown by a member of a particular ethnicity.

Still, among the elite educated white scholars, I like to believe that there have been enough number of fair-minded, unbiased people represented that my opinins of Huns, Mongols or Turks would not change whole a lot. Yes, I do have a great admiration and respect for Genghis Khan...

Regarding a Vietnamese general/prince who helped out Koreans against Mongol invasions, and later settled in Korea:

I have never heard of such a person. Then again, why not? It's a very interesting story because Korea never had any noteworthy political/cultural/commercial/etc. relationships with Vietnam throughout its 5000 year old history -- of course until the participation in the Vietnam war -- as far as I know. But, I don't know too much about Korean history anyway.

If this person, prince Ly Long Tuong(what's his Korean name?) lived in 13th century as hafti said, then there are at least tens of thousands of his descendants living in Korea today. Probably a lot more. And of course, undistinguishable from the rest of Korean population.

If prince Ly's descendants became a part of old Korean upper ruling class from 13th century on, which I guess is exactly what happened from all the indications, then it's quite possible that some of his descendants might have married into relatives of Korean royal families. Or vice versa. Heck, at least two of my direct male ancestors in the past married with a Korean princess or a close relative of royal families. Maybe I have some Vietnamese blood in me as well through sorta round about way! Hmmm...I doubt it...

However, stating that 4 of prince Ly's relatives/descendants became Korean kings is quite inaccurate and false. Maybe hafti didn't know how to correctly phrase it.

The correct statement should be that 4 of Korean kings(from Chosun or Yi Dynasty) had some Vietnamese blood in them through marriages of close relatives between royal family, prince Ly's familiy, and so on. Blah blah blah. You can easily contribute some of your ethnic blood to the male lineage of the ruling dynasty, but you can never become a king unless you usurp the power/totally overthrow the dynasty, and become a king youself.

Ex-president Rhee, for same reason, might have had some Vietnames blood in him also. After all, I know he came from a family descended from relatives of old Korean royalty. But how much Vietnamese blood? After having lived in Korea since 13th century, you would guess all of prince Ly's descendants had been completely assimilated into Korean history/culture/population/etc, centuries ago albeit some root-conscious descendants probably having strong pro-Vietnam sentiments...

Anyway, I hope more Koreans are aware of prince Ly and what he did for his adopted country. It's really a fascinating story from a Korean perspective.

Due to some misguided Korean soldiers having behaved badly in Vietnam during the war -- yes, I know about some graphic details of atrocities committed by Korean soldiers, there are some degree of hotility/animosity present among Vietnamese towards Koreans from what I heard. I think Koreans and Vietnamese in USA get along fine for most part, tho'.
I've heard of Vietnamese refugees/laborers who are being mistreated/discriminated in Korea, half Korean/half Vietnamese children looking to find a place in Korean society, etc...Maybe we should realize that Korea and Vietnam are not that far away from each other as it seems...

Regarding Altaic origin of Korean/Japanese:

Yeah, I've heard all the pros and cons of such argument before, but most of Korean/Japanese linguists have accepted the theory of (Ural-)Altaic origin. The pros far outweighs the cons. Also from a historical context, it's obvious; just look at how nomadic horse-riding ancestors of Altaic people originated from Central Asia branching out into different parts in western/central Asia, Siberia, Manchuria, Korean peninsula, Japan, etc., along the lines of Turkic, Mongol and Tungustic groups, respectively, and so on...It's those Western scholars who seem to have a trouble with it. I don't understand why...

One Korean Man Monday, May 27, 2002 at 18:56:25 (PDT)

The Huns and the forgotten Korean Europeans called them "Huns". Originating from the main land of Korea, they invaded the Roman empire during the 4th century. Ancient Greeks historian recorded them Scytians , and later European called them Mongols. Around early 4th century, the temperature fell lower than usual for many years in far East Asia. It caused grains not to ripen, grazing grassland for animals was scarce. For these reasons a large number of semi-nomadic tribes left from what is known today as the Korean mainland to Eastern Manchuria. Gathering other tribes along the way they proceeded to the Central Asiatic step. From there, the mass of tribes went westward. Around AD 370 these nomadic people arrived upon the Horizon of the Roman empire. They established a kingdom along the Danube, on the prairies that are present day Hungary. About AD 443, Attila, the son of King Ruga assassinated his brother Bleda and united all the Hun tribes. He lead the warriors onto ruthless and savage conquests; destroying anything in sight, looting and merciless killing of innocent people. He conquered Germany, Eastern Europe and most of southeastern Europe. The Huns were superior horseman and combined with their archery skills were the bane of the Romans. They used a short, inverted bow made from few different materials glued together. An iron arrowhead was able to pierce any European armor. Their horses were short in height, but had speed and endurance, they were also agile and smart. Hun warriors, while twisting their upper body, were able to shoot arrows behind them while their horses were running forward. When Atilla was young, his father Ruga exchanged his son with a young son of a prominent Roman family , his name was Aetius. For ten years Atilla was educated in the Roman court vise versa Aetius from the Hun kingdom. Atilla was probably the first western educated Mongol in its history. Later these 2 men would confront each other in Gaul (today's France), in 451. Atilla would go on to lose this battle and invaded Italy in 452 with Germanic tribes. His army advanced to Venice (today's) and negotiated with a Roman representative Pope Leo for 10 hours. All the while on horse back, Atilla received tribute from Rome, and would thereafter retreat from Italy. Pope Leo received the title "The great" from the church for his successful negotiations with Atilla. Atilla married to a German princess, Ideco in AD 453. After his wedding celebration he died that wedding night, possibly from alcohol poisoning. His people dammed the Danube river and buried him in the middle of the river. They opened the dam for no one, so that none could ever find his grave. After his death, the Hun kingdom crumbled and his people scattered from the Europe. He would be known as "the scourge of god" by the Roman Empire because of his cruel acts. The Huns left a number of legacies in Europe especially the Chateau area of France, all children born there have a blue round mark in their hip as the Mongolians do today. The country of Hungary got its name from the Huns, to commemorate the Hun Kingdom. During the world war ll allied forces refer to Germans as Hun because of their relationship with Huns in the 4th and 5th centuries. Funeral cultures of Europe are also deeply influenced from the Hun.

from Discovery Channel Monday, May 27, 2002 at 16:29:28 (PDT)

To tri,

Even though you asked for An Nam Guy's information. I can give it to you through living there until i has ten. For the vietnamese people the land of the viets follow the viets. That's why after losing land they moved down and made a new home. The people are the most important pieces of the community not the land. The viets are pure and good. Guangdong, GuangXi, and Fujian are now of the chinese people. Vietnam doesn't want it back, maybe in the future, but most of the viets left behind are now chinese, no use for it to be vietnamese land anymore. Only true home is now where vietnam is at.

Ok and for the Hmong, i've heard A LOT about them. They were supposed to have came from mongolia originally, they then migrated south and were treated EXTREMELY horrifically by the chinese. They usually stayed in the southwest of china i think, they were then treated so badly that many moved down to laos, then vietnam and a variety of other places. The Yueh are considered to be a branch of the Viets. They are different. I know that for sure, for sure that they originally came in from mongolia (read it somewhere when i first heard about the Hmong and how they help fight the communist in their secret war, i was interested and researched, definitely they are from mongolia a few milleniums ago.
General Viet Monday, May 27, 2002 at 14:02:12 (PDT)

mutt,

In Cantonese, "a-ma" and "a-ba" are informal terms for mom and dad. The more formal would be "mama" and "baba" as it is in Mandarin too.

Cassy Monday, May 27, 2002 at 13:46:23 (PDT)

Won Bin:

u obviously never been to vietnam or you observation wasn't very good. i rarely see a vietnamese in vietnam who is close to looking like chinese/malay...and they don't even look like chinese or korean. they have a distinct look to them.
a vietnamese Monday, May 27, 2002 at 12:07:24 (PDT)

"Are these Hmong descendants of the Yueh tribes?"

no...they're Sino-Tibetan...i've seen them before...one eyelid eyes, dark-skin...
"
There are some Thai people I met who look very Korean and Japanese (sharp slit eyes). Those girls from Thailand are very pretty.

I assume they are from northern Thailand. Many northern Thais and northern Burmese look Tibetan."

intersting...a lot of thai girls are mixed with chinese nowadays..that's why you see people w/ sharp slit eyes.Thai has various looks to them. Most look like lao, malay and some look indian. a few are part white.very friendly people too. and i've seen some Burmese who have chinese like facial features.

gk Monday, May 27, 2002 at 11:58:08 (PDT)

Haftie:

that's a true story, Hafti. I've heard about this too.The emperor fled exile to Korea and you know what? His descendents (of korean nationality, of course) are now going back to live in Vietnam. they're quite rich in korea however they still go back to live in what they call their motherland.
gk Monday, May 27, 2002 at 11:49:00 (PDT)

T.H. Lien,

There are several versions of the Cantonese dialect. In HK, the ability to speak proper Cantonese reveals one's educational level and upward mobility.

HK Cantonese - The most proper form of Cantonese. Authoritative used for commerce and in the professional sectors.

Guangzhou Cantonese - Mainland Cantonese but not as authoritative and hard edge as HK Cantonese. Uses less vocabulary than HK Cantonese.

Rural Cantonese - better known as Hakka Cantonese or Hillbilly Cantonese, it is regarded as unrefined and trashy. Anyone speaking this form is considered low class and uneducated. It is called Hakka Cantonese because the Hakkas evolved a form of Cantonese mixing with the Hakka dialect. This happened because the Hakkas living in the nearby villages of HK developed a separate yet rough form of Cantonese.

Despite the desire for many HKers to learn Mandarin, deep down in their hearts, Mandarin is regarded as a barbaric and crude dialect. I call this Cantonese Provincial Pride.

Many Northerners, Mandarin Speakers and Hakkas who come to HK looking for employment are often harass and emotionally abused by the Cantonese speakers due to their inability to speak the local dialect. It's quite prevalent in the workplace.

Some people think Cantonese is a rude dialect. This is true because of the resource deficient region and the humid climate conditions.
Rude Cantonese Scum Monday, May 27, 2002 at 10:08:46 (PDT)

Correcting myself:
["Of course, it is a principle of linguistics that a language very rarely gets outside influence on its words"]
D'oh ... meant to say "phonetic system" and not "words."

Cantonese was once spoken in all of China:
To claim any one modern dialect as having been spoken in all of China is incorrect, as well as unjust to the speakers of other dialects who are all just as Chinese as us. The fact that 300 Tang Poems and other works rhyme and tone quite well in Cantonese (and in some cases, even better in Hakka, my own dialect) is a nice propaganda point, but it hasn't got much to do with linguistic similarity. Middle Chinese definitely had initial consonants which were pronounced with a curled tongue/trill. Similar to Vietnamese "Tran" which is their reading for the surname "Chen/Chan." You find those today in Beijing Mandarin, which lost all the "Entering Tones," but not in either of our dialects, in which we always keep our tongues flat while speaking.

In any case, if Li Shimin returned today, we'd probably have to find a brush and a bottle of ink (and hand them to a scholar of classical Chinese) to communicate with him.
T.H. Lien Monday, May 27, 2002 at 10:08:22 (PDT)

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