Comparing Asian Nationalities | Asian American Poll

COMPARING ASIAN NATIONALITIES
(Updated Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 05:20:31 PM to reflect the 100 most recent valid responses.)

CONTACT US | ADVERTISING INFO

© 1996-2013 Asian Media Group Inc
No part of the contents of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission.

WHAT YOU SAY

[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]

2)Korea's Prehistoric/medieval/modern/present relationship with Northeastern China/Manchuria/Siberia/Korean Peninsula

Basically what I want to say about this topic has been already well-summarized by another poster("Kungae should be preserved, but is part of China").
I don't care what nationality this poster belongs to, but he/she seems to be very level-headed/unbiased/knowledgeable(much more than I am, particularly regarding some details).

If the world has more people like this person, we can together accomplish some great things, particularly in academia.

Anyway, let me add my own 4 cents from a Koreancentric(ignorant that I am) point of view;

Nobody from both Korean and Chinese academia, in his/her right mind will dispute the fact that in prehistoric times Northeastern China, Manchuria and Siberia did belong to the nomadic/horse-riding Altaic people -- including Koreans. Koreans were a big part of this group. Nobody seems to know exactly when Koreans/Altaic tribes first arrived in those territories or how long Koreans had lived in those territories until some factions of them started to migrate southward into Korean peninsula. Of course, while this southward migrations were taking place, many Koreans still remained back in Northeastern China/Manchuria/Siberia carrying on their nomadic life-style and roaming freely among their closely related confederates.

This is what I call the Korea's prehistoric relationship with these territories. Of course, Koreans did not monopolize these territories, but as I said, they formed the vital part of the residents during those times...

Well, all the excruciating efforts to trace Korean history back to the time of the legendary Dan-Gun (whose birth place is said to be located somewhere in Northeastern China), the founder of the 1st nation-state of Korea(Old Chosun) about 5000 years ago or so, had resulted in some disappointment. From reliable/legitimate historical records/archeological findings, Korean history -- those involving the direct ancestors of modern Koreans -- can be traced back to only around 1000 BC -- in other words, Korean history based on provable archeological excavations/historical references/etc., is about 3000 years old at best. Of course, as you know, this doesn't mean Koreans suddenly appeared in the history of mankind/face of the earth from nowhere 3000 years ago...

At any rate, (I won't talk about Kija Choson or Wiman Chosun today. I think there's still a lot of work need to be done regarding these ancient kingdoms...), starting around 300 or 400 BC or so, many Korean tribal states gradually emerged and a national identity slowly began to form. Also, same kind of nationalism and national identity started to emerge among the various non-Korean Altaic/Tungustic tribes who lived side by side with Koreans.

I'm boring you...I'll have to considerably shorten my story...

Okay, what I call the Korea's medieval relationship with these territories is as follows;

It's basically the power struggle between Koreans/Khitans-Jurchens- Malgals-Huns-what have you/ Han Chinese roughly dating from around 300/400 BC and lasting until about 10th century when Palhae kingdom finally fell to Khitans.

Puyo kingdom occupied Northeastern China and southern Manchuria until they lost its power around 4th century(or is it mid-3th century?) or so.

At its peak, Goguryo kingdom occupied Northeastern China, almost all of Manchuria and some parts of Siberia around 5th century or so. This is an indisputable historical facts. (Some ultra nationalistic Korean historians claim that virtually all of coastline areas along the eastern part of China -- picture the map of Chile -- fell under Goguryo's direct influence as evidenced by hitorical reference(Chinese too mind you) to Goguryo's military garrisons present in those areas. These scholars also claim that Paekje kingdom previously held these territories before Goguryo took over...Also based on a Chinese record...).

Goguryo/Paekje/Kaya/etc., fell and Shilla took over the Korean peninsula in 7th century. In the process of unifying the Peninsula under one centralized rule/one common language, Koreans paid its price dearly. Virtually all of Goguryo's old territory above present-day North Korea was lost for sometime. Then, Palhae kingdom was founded 30 years later by one of Goguryo's old expatriate general, named Dae Jo-Young and his old Goguryo followers who were in exile.

Let's talk about Palhae kingdom;

It's a source of great debate/controversy among Koreans(particularly North Koreans), Chinese and Russians because Palhae's old territory is now occupied by the three respective nations -- North Korea, Northeastern China/Manchuria/Siberia...

As I stated, Palhae's royal family and its ruling class were all consisted by old Goguryo expatriats who fled Goguryo or forced to relocate to Manchuria by Tang dynasty. However, the majority of Palhae's population -- the lower classes -- were of Malgal people(basically the ancestors of Qing dynasty Manchus).

Obviously from Korean or any logical point of view, Palhae was a continuation of Goguryo kingdom and an important part of legitimate Korean history since Palhae was founded by Goguryo people -- Palhae's kings/royal family, the aristocrats/ruling class were all of Goguryo descent. The fact that majority of its population, the lower classes, were of Malgal heritage doesn't make it a Malgal kingdom, if you know what I mean. What's frustrating in studying about Palhae is that there are only a handful of known historical facts about them -- at least to us Koreans(South). And that's a part of reasons why so many South Korean scholars have neglected Palhae study for decades. At least presently, more and more historians are trying to gather more information/study about Palhae, and as a result many are starting to reconsider Shilla kingdom and its unification feat. Some Korean historians have decided that after all Korea was not trully unified as one nation by Shilla, but existed as two separate kingdoms/sovereignties, Northern Palhae and Southern Shilla in bilateral political rivalship, from 7/8th century on through 10th century.

However, especially in the 1980s and thereafter, the Chinese actively/vehemently started to claim Palhae was a part of Chinese history stating/insisting that Palhae was under Tang Dynasty's direct influence/suzerainty. A valid claim? As far as I know, Palhae was very hostile towards Tang Dynasty and in no way a vassal state. And what if Palhae paid a tribute to Tang Dynasty; does it make a part of Tang nation??

In any regard, the Chinese continue to publish more research papers on Palhae than North Korea and South Korea combined. I have no idea what Chinese are writing in those papers...

Russians? They acknowledge the Goguryo influence on Palhae. However, they strongly claim that Palhae was an independant nation, free of any external influence from any country including China/Tang.

Meanwhile, Russians continue to report Goguryo-originated/or Goguryo-related artifacts being dug up from Palhae's archeological sites. Chinese excavations/findings? Haha. Don't be naive, please. And don't insult my intelligence...

This is what I was referring to when I stated in one of my previous posts -- our history being stolen by Chinese and Japanese...If you really think that the communist China is being honest about Palhae or any Korean-related artifacts dug up or lackthereof, in Northeastern China and Manchuria, you probably need some professional help.

There was a Korean archeological expedition(after getting a hard-earned approval/visa from Chinese government) into Northeastern China/Manchuria some years ago. What Korean researchers had found made them sick to their stomach; the poor/pitiful conditons of Korean-related archeological sites, apparent attempt to distort or destroy/damage some memorial/monuments built by Goguryo conquerors(specifically Gwangaeto the Great of Goguryo kingdom), etc.; basically same kind of abominable acts that the imperial Japanese army tried to do when they invaded Manchuria and Northern China in attempt to distort/destroy Korean history...

This is just an example of suffering/humiliation/degradation/lies we Koreans have to suffer at the hands of Chinese and Japanese who are now more powerful than us...

The Korea's modern relationship to Northeastern China/Manchuria/Siberia from 10th century through the Manchu rule(Qing Dynasty) in early part of 20th century;

Basically a gradual to almost complete loss of those territories...Of course, in late 14th century or so, there were some Korean hardliners who wanted to invade and retake the Northeastern China and Manchuria when Mongol Dynasty started to weaken/China proper showed some weakness due to political turmoil/strife. However, vast majority of Korean statesmen/ruling class objected to such an endeavor/military campaign, and decided to be content with holding onto Korean peninsula. If they invaded, did Koreans have a chance/prayer? Haha...What a question...

Present relationship; yeah, they are gone forever including continuing/alarming disappearace/silence of Korean-related artifacts, etc.

Long live the Korean autonomous zone in Yenban(sp?) city....

One Korean Man Wednesday, June 12, 2002 at 05:05:31 (PDT)

Wow, this forum is really interesting!

Concerning blacks in China, actually, I wouldn't take this too lightly. There is historical documentation of this in old Chinese records concerning people from Africa going to China. African kings sent animals indigenous to Africa to Chinese emporers as gifts. African and Chinese people did a lot of traveling and trading back then. I've got tons of information on this--most from non-African sources. In as far as intermingling, I am not sure of this. The sources I have don't indicate this clearly. But I tend to believe that assigning certain characteristics to different races is a little outdated and should be re-evaluated. The 'negroid' pheneotype, for example, may work when describing a person from west Africa, but does nothing for the people of the northeast (Ethipians and Ghanans look different). So if racial mixing did occur way back when, there is the possibility that one may be looking in the wrong place to determine the answer. (After all, there are whites in the south who have african decendents, but their blonde hair and blue eyes wouldn't let you know that). You have to remember that any of these unities would have happened centuries ago over many generations, single-race unities among Chinese would have 'cancelled out' the black 'characteristics' of any black/Chinese unions by now. Darker doesn't necessarily equate with stronger presence of features.

Concerning One Korean Man's view on history. I back up his claims partially concerning Japan. Actually, the first emporer of Japan actually did come from Korea. Japanese schoolchildren are now being taught the *possibility* exists that they *may* be decended from Korean heritage. There were actually two or three major influxes of Korean people to Japan (you can't tell me these men weren't a little lonely). Japanese had Korean potters and religeous folk come and teach in Japan. (I can't think of the exact dates, though) If you visited Japan and observed the people in eastern Japan and western Japan, the western Japanese have personal and social characteristics very similar to Koreans. This is because when Korean people came to Japan, it was via western Japan. Some of the culture stuck. There are even Japanese scholars (obviously hated) who are exploring possibilities that they are also of Southeast Asian origin.

Just sharing possibilites.

Joy Wednesday, June 12, 2002 at 01:08:12 (PDT)

Language and religion does not define a people. It is the genes.

Despite the common assumption among Han Chinese and Koreans that they are different from each other, the genetic studies confirm that they came from the similar paternal lines (even more so than compared to Japanese). This study below was researched in Korea by Korean genecists:

http://hgm2002.hgu.mrc.ac.uk/Abstracts/Publish/WorkshopPosters/WorkshopPoster11/hgm0542.htm

82% of Korean Y chromosomes (passed from the dad) is shared by 95% of the Chinese (who also have it). If Koreans were really Altaic orginated, these numbers should have been switched the other way around, with Chinese having less of the similar Y chromosomes that are shared with Koreans. But, it seems more likely now from this evidence, that Koreans have more of the Y chromosomes derived from Chinese. Regardless, this study proves the overwhelming majority of Koreans share the same paternity with almost all Chinese. We (Asians) all came from one Mongoloid ancestor, and most likely, the Koreans and Han Chinese split off from each other only recently as attested to by this study.

Koreans and Chinese are more alike than not. It started many thousands of years ago with the first arrival of a Chinese man and his band to Korea (Kija Chosun). They met and married with Tunguz women to form the modern Koreans as we know it. And, their language might have been a mixture of the 2 (Tunguz grammar/structure with many Han words). That is why scholars still do not include Korean into the Altaic language fully. They already sense something not crisp and smooth with that theory.
Koreans and Chinese share the same fathers Wednesday, June 12, 2002 at 00:40:01 (PDT)

As for a rather old post (05 June 2002),
Japanese names *used* to be Chinese style, then they wanted to be like Europeans.

I've also heard that Hungarians put their surname first in the Chinese style, but that may be an anachronism, and I have not really looked it up.

I should sleep first =p
Har har Wednesday, June 12, 2002 at 00:25:00 (PDT)

BTW, is there any speculation as to how much the Japanese destroyed in terms of evidence of their bloodline/Korean heritage during colonization of Korea? What else was destroyed?
Another Korean Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 23:57:08 (PDT)

One Korean Man,
I love your style of writing and I think you're hilarious/smart/witty/diplomatic/humble/subtle/etc.
Another Korean Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 23:52:36 (PDT)

One Korean Man,

You stated:

>>>Roughly over 70% of these strains does belong to so-called Altaic group/Northern Asian(Mongoloid) type according to the geneticists/scientists<<<

Try reading this website research by 4 Korean genetic scholars:

http://www.genekotech.com/dnatype/lab/pdf/Kim1998.pdf

They made a study comparison of genetic distances of 6 Asian nationality groups: Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Mongols, Tibetans and Indians (from India).

It turns out that the Koreans were closest genetically to the Chinese than to any of the other 4 Asian groups. The Japanese were closest to Koreans than to any other Asian group. Actually the 3 East groups (Chinese, Koreans and Japanese) shared many similar alleles. They were closest to each other than to the other 3. Close to them would be the Tibetans, who also share many same alleles with the Chinese. Sino-Tibetan groups (Chinese, Tibetans, Thai, Burmese, etc.) also share quite remarkably similar DNA:

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/HG_2000_v107_p582.pdf

Manchurian DNA is actually closer to both northern and southern Han than it is to Japanese (research done by Japanese genecists).

Mongol/Siberian DNA is midway between East Asian and American Indian.

Central Asian (Turkic) DNA is midway between Caucasoid/Iranian and Mongol/Han Chinese. Yes, they share 6 genetic markers with the Han Chinese.
Bob Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 23:26:09 (PDT)

LI Bai works don�t really indicate the favorings of persian women, especially if it was only one or a few poems. He wrote many many poems about women.
no beautiful race Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 21:38:06 (PDT)

One Korean Man,

How come most Japanese people are shorter than Koreans? Are they supposed to have the same DNA?
Edward Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 16:57:43 (PDT)

I do not doubt that Japanese have kinship with Koreans but I don't think it is as high as 80%. Many Japanese look Chinese rather than Korean. We have narrower heads and have slimmer bodies. Like the Chinese, we have mixed with malay type. Okinawans are South pacific type with darker skins and bigger eyes. Northern Japanese (hokkaido) are ainu type with hairy bodies and white skin.

Culturally, We are distinct. Our culture is a mixture of continental culture (Tang China) and native traditions. We were no match for advanced nation like Tang so we had to adopt their ways to bring Japan to standards of refinement. We perfected their ways and made them uniquely Japanese. Korean culture did not have a major influence in our culture contrary to what Korean scholars are claiming. Our history merely mention them as emmissaries who brought Kanji and Buddhism to us. I have nothing against Koreans but I feel many of them are distorting historical facts to elevate their historical significance to the level of Japan or China. A Korean scholar ( I forget his name) claimed that Korea was the root of Asian civilization. He said Japan's Yamoto clan were Korean and our Samurai were based on Korean soldiers and China's Yellow Emperor was Korean. I admit we Japanese are also guilty of this revisonism but our own people have refuted it. I have not see a Korean person correct another Korean person on mis-representation of the facts. Koreans are a beautiful people and should be proud of their culture and history and should not resort to aggrandizement.
Miyagi Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 16:29:22 (PDT)

tri,

it was interesting to read about the history of the merchants. I was never much aware of merchant culture.I was always searching for the cultures of the robber barons.
I've read that they also imported culture from Iranians in the Tang times.

No doubt that the term "Turk" is irritating in discussions about races.
rare stuff Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 16:01:51 (PDT)

One Korean Man:

Given your obsession for racial purity, you should seriously consider marrying your sister so that you could have One purebred Korean Baby!

Due to the fact that more than half of all Koreans are Kims, Lees, Parks, Changs, and Chungs, there is an understandable misperception that Koreans must all be closely related and therefore, purebred.

But as you have conceded, almost one-third of the genetics of a modern Korean is comprised of non-Mongoloid stock (that is, Mon-Khmer of Southeast Asia). http://users.tmok.com/~tumble/jpp/japor.html Likewise, the Japanese are a mixture of northern and southern stocks. The Jomon people (aborigines) have occupied Japan for 11,000 years while the Yayoi from the northern region of what is modern China have migrated to Japan only during the last 2,000 years. Perhaps the purest example of Mongoloid people is the Mongolians who have little or no Malay-type genetics. But then again, who wants to be born bow-legged with a blue Mongolian spot on their butt and a large wide head. Mongolians may be good at horse riding and keeping sand out of their slit eyes, but not very good at running, high-jumping and world class modeling with their proportionally short legs. So much for the so-called barbaric Altaic race! (if there is even such a thing because Altaic refers not to genetics but to a regional language type with the cumbersome SOV logic)

Civilized Han Chinese Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 14:55:43 (PDT)

alot of filipinos ive noticed have curly or wavy hair.
dbs Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 14:08:11 (PDT)

Japanese are more receptive of the Chinese than the Koreans. The fact that Kanji (Chinese characters)is still part of the Japanese language and not the Korean language might prove to everyone why the Koreans don't want to associate themselves with anyone. They live in their own little world of self glory, and most other people could care less. For some unknown reason, Koreans are very uncomfortable with other Asians, especially when a Chinese or Japanese enters one of their businesses, be it a dry cleaning store or a restaurant. You rarely find a Chinese or a Japanese have the kind of xenophobic paranoia that many Koreans exhibit.

Btw, although many ancestors of the Japanese came via the Korean peninsula, this doesn't mean that most Japanese look Korean. In fact, there are equal numbers of Japanese who have the prominent Chinese facial type.

One last remark, the Japanese never persecuted the Chinese in Japan. The bustling and vibrant Chinatowns in Yokohama and other places are still there. Go to Korea and the Chinatowns have all died off due to once again, the xenophobic attitudes of the Koreans.

Koreans are better off not associating with anyone Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 11:07:25 (PDT)

yellow,

you think tagalog sounds spanish??
im from argentina and i went to school in australia, we had filipinos kids going to our school, and they used to speak filipino language to each other. I dont know it sounded kinda weird not like chinese but like how the vietnamese people speak. one of my friends who was filipino came over to my house once and my grandpa was there, when my grandpa saw him he immediately said hey! its bruce lee! i was realy embarresed but my friend just laughed. im surprised to hear that phillipines has spanish words in it and that malay has portuguese, well i guess to alot of white people and non-asian people those type of languages just sound asian.
Roman Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 10:01:26 (PDT)

NEWEST COMMENTS | EARLIER COMMENTS