Comparing Asian Nationalities | Asian American Poll

COMPARING ASIAN NATIONALITIES
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3)The Truth about Japan's first emperor:

(First of all, I just wanna say that I wanted to talk about something else today, specifically the DNA tests that were done by some Korean geneticsts/Native Indians(re:Professor Xu)/skull type/blood type/etc.
I thank the two posters who provided the hyperlinks(DNA tests) for me. Yes, I finally found some time to read them.
Maybe I'll be able to share some of my own opinions in near future -- FWIW.
Also I want to thank the poster who complimented on my writing style
-- you're/10 times/more witty/than myself! (to tell you the truth, I have an enormous inferior complex when it comes to writing. As some of you can easily tell, English is not my 1st language),
and those who shared their opinions on what I wrote.
Please forgive me for not being able to respond to all of your posts today.
I've realized some time ago that it's simply impossible for me or any poster to respond to every single comment/argument/question/criticism/etc.
Even though I could care less about what other people think about me personally (in real life believe me, I'm truly truly a nice guy!)/professionally (I tell you again that I'm no intellectual.
Somewhat Intelligent? More than likely.),
I have to admit, it still gives me great joy/satisfaction in knowing that some people actually do care about what I write -- whether positively/negatively/ noncommittally or even sarcastically, you know.

Anyway, I have no earthly idea why I've stayed on this particular forum for as long as I have?!)

Miyagi et al,

I didn't really want to come out like this -- because I have nothing but genuine sympathy for people like you. I really do.
Please don't think of it as me being condescending.
And it really breaks my heart to see so many people of Japanese descent not knowing the real truth about their history...
After all, my father was like 1 year old when he moved to Japan with his parents, and lived there until he was 18 years old or so.
When he came back to Korea, he couldn't speak Korean well at all and he very much behaved like a typical Japanese teenager (due to lack of time, I can't tell you some of the most hilarious stories/episodes I've heard regarding his Japanesqueness)...

Yes, my grandfather, grandmother, all of my uncle/aunts lived in Japan for almost 20 years until Korea became liberated in 1945 (they actually returned to Korea a few years later)...

Other members of my close relatives also studied and lived in Japan during Japanese colonial rule, with some of them deciding to permanently stay in their 2nd home/not returning to Korea even after Korea's Independance.
Obvisously those relatives/their children/grandchildren are now (Korean) Japanese, you know...
My father still remembers Japan very fondly/nostalgically despite having to endure some heavy discrimination while he lived there.

Besides you know what? I could have been half-Japanese if my father married this really nice/pretty Japanese school teacher whom he still vividly remembers.
Yes, even during that time there existed this nice/understanding unprejudiced wonderful Japanese family who was willing to let ther beloved daughter marry a Korean man, my father.
If my granfather decided to stay back in Japan like some of his relatives, my father would have shortly married his Japanese sweetheart and very likely he would have chosen to raise his family in Japan. (Can you imagine, me, One Korean Man living in Japan as half-Japanese??)

Also, according to all family/clan history written down in legitimate historical annals/documents/etc.,
my ancient Korean ancestors did first originate from this small province in Korea where old glorious Pacekje kingdom once stood proudly...
There actually exists (regarding my ancestral home) some tragic oral legend retelling a story about how one Packje prince(I think his name was Pung) fought valiantly to his last drop of blood against invading Shilla/Tang army and died...
So, I feel somewhat or rather deeply connected to Japan.

(Yes, I also have some very strong strong connections to ancient China through some of my ancestors as well. If I have a chance, I would like to share this "family secrets" with you too...

Well, then I guess I'm connected to Vietnam too through sorta round about way because two of my uncles served there during the war...
Also I might have some connection to India or whereever due to some of my distinctive physical features/characteristics...

Gee, I'm connected to all parts of Asia!!

Now I have to look hard for some reasons to connect myself to ancient Europe/Africa/America/Australia/Anartica/etc. I'll let you know when I succeed. How I wish I'm Chinese so my search will be easier."snicker")...

I've always thought it best that the Japanese should learn on their own the truth regarding their history no matter how difficult/shocking it may be...

If every attempt fails, then we still have internet/Information superhighway, you know...
Well, it may not actually help knowing how distorted Japanese history is. It's almost impossible. So many of important parts of Japanese history have been distorted/destroyed beyond recognition from its original truth during the past 1300-1700 years, it's almost tragic.
And I can't imagine a Japanese person going over to Korean sites to learn about their true history...

Anyway, here it goes(of course from a Koreancentric point of view/my own twisted(?) way of interpretation):

1st warning: If you are Japanese, you may already know about "other" version to this story, of course 180 degree different from what I'm gonna tell you.

2nd warning: By today's conservative or even moderate Eastern(Asian) moral/ethical standard, I'm afraid the mother of Japan's 1st emperor might be seen somewhat sluttish.
However, 1600 or even 800-1000 years ago, I have to emphasize that what she did/was coerced to do was very normal, common-place and noble.

She was a Puyo princess by birth, born in Manchuria.
When she was only a baby, around mid-4th century(I think), Puyo kingdom fell to a neighboring/northern Tungusic state whose name I don't remember.
Somehow through help of her brave/fierce/loyal generals, soldiers/followers, she was saved, and these diehard political refugees fled/fought their way to the southern part of Korea.
They ended up in Packje kingdom. Of course, Packje kingdom was also founded by Puyo people, and you can see why these people went there -- to the waiting/welcoming arms of their relatives.
Then why didn't they find a political asylum in Goguryo which bordered right below Puyo, another Korean kingdom founded by Puyo people?
(Puyo, Goguryo and Packje were basically all same, speaking same language/custom/culture/etc.
Shilla was a tad bit different even though Shilla people still came from common Altaic/Scythian/shamanistic ancestor.)

Well, Puyo and Goguryo were political rivals/enemies, and didn't get along well with each other at all.
Actually, compared to rather a peaceful/friendly Puyo kingdom/people, Goguryo was very very aggressive and warlike people.
They continually waged war/raided into China, and in fear of Goguryo, Puyo and the Chinese actually formed some kind of diplomatic alliance to subdue/minimize Goguryo influence/aggression. That partly explains the reason as to why Goguryo became so successful in their military campaign into Northeastern China/Manchuria/Siberia/etc. later on.
They were fearless/fierce warriors...All in all,
Goguryo was a constant threat/headache to the Chinese and people all around it all throughout its history...

Anyway, this Puyo princess(I think her name was Jingu/Jingi or something) grew up in Packje and
when she became of age, people tried to find a worthy husband for this royal princess. Of course, the search was politically motivated.
I must tell you that her royal Puyo blood was greatly treasured and revered by
Packje people for obvious reasons. They eventually found a worthy husband in a kingdom next door, Kaya, which was a poltical ally of Shilla kingdom at the time.
Who was he? A reigning Kaya king whose name I don't exactly remember(Choai or Chuai?) who was already fairly advanced in age(well over 50 years old).
More than likely, this Puyo princess was taken as one of Kaya king's concubines or 2nd/3rd wife, IMO.
It's been said that the Kaya king alreadly had at least 2 grown-up sons by his other wife(-ves).

After a few years, the Kaya king passed away and the Puyo princess grew very weary and fearful of the Kaya king's two sons -- her two step-sons -- who were now her bitter political foes.
Uneasy about her life/future, the princess enlisted some help from one(several?) of her former protectors(most likely, old Puyo or Packje generals), and was able to flee Kaya and
come back to Packje. In doing so, she was able to gather up an impressive army of warriors/soldiers around her who believed in her "divine" Puyo royal blood.

And in the process, she became pregnant. Nobody is able to pinpoint who actually impregnated her.
It might have been the deceased Kaya king for all I know. However, I tend to doubt that...

A historical account(very vague and fuzzy.
So much of Japanese historical records, particularly regarding Korean-related events/topics, have been so mercilessly deleted/distorted/eradicated that it gets really difficult to construct an accurate picture...) says
that her royal Puyo blood was "shared" by the rulers of Packje. Don't feel uneasy about this.
The nomadic/horse-riding people of Puyo/Goguryo/Packje/Shilla/(Kaya??), used to do this sort of thing all the time, sharing bloodline.
What does it mean?

"Sharing bloodline" basically means a woman having a sexual relationship with multiple male partners.
It was very common and rather encouraged among these early nomadic/horse-riding people who traced their ancestry matrilineally(an interior/Central Asiatic practice).
Not only that, you can also find numerous historical records from ancient Korean kingdoms, on incestuous relationship, e.g., cousin marriages, a nephew/niece marrying his/her aunt/uncle,
half-brother marrying half-sister. Also a step-son having sexual relationship with his step-mother.
It's not even funny. This "immoral" marriage/sexual practice was abandoned/abolished, of course, when the Chinese told us not to do that anymore(I'm not exactly sure when that happened, but I suspect it in around 8th or 9th century. Maybe even later. Of course whenever Koreans adopted something from China, we went to the extreme, and became even more Sinicized than the Chinese themeselves...)

Obviously what people wanted to do, particularly people of royal lineages, was to preserve their "pure" noble/royal blood among themselves.
That's why such a despicable act was allowed/encouraged.(Well, you can also find similar kind of thing practiced by ancient Hebrews/Greeks/Romans, or all over the ancient world...).

Anyway, it might have been the Kaya king who impregnated her (in his 50s. Why not? It's very very possible, especially 1600 years ago), but I strongly suspect one of her Packje generals to be the real father of the baby, who eventually became the first emperor of Japan later on.
How regrettable we couldn't do the paternity test back then..
In any regard, in order to elevate the status/bloodline of the baby son, I tend to think that peple might have rallied around him believing/fabricating his lineage of being Kaya royalty/Puyo royalty.

Determined to have her unborn-son/daughter become a king/queen of his/her own kingdom, this Puyo princess set her eye on conquering new land, particularly "the land across" -- Japan.
Korean peninsula(or Manchuria) was already too congested/extremely difficult(rather impossible) to conquer at this time because they were too well-established.

So she and her determined army of ambitious warriors/desperados fought their way to the southeastern part of Korea, probably present-day Pusan or thereabout, gathering more soldiers from Shilla kingdom, and crossed the sea to conquer Japan.
I mean, ancient Korean people already had known about this migratory routes and the land across -- Japan -- for centuries by then.

The rest is history -- the foundation of Yamato was firmly laid.

The basic storyline of this historcal account I just wrote was actually first constructed/suggested by an American(white!) historian(of Columbia University, I think) who carefully/diligently restudied the two earliest recorded Japanese history books from 7th century or so.
Later on, the whole story/history was modified by a Korean scholar...

The story I wrote about tomb/excavation of 1st emperor of Japan, e.g., Korean-related artifacts being found -- sword, pottery, armor, mirror, crown, bracelet, whatever(I tend to doubt any clothing/garment would have actually survived, you know. Only the non-perishable objects, IMO, is all true. It really happened...
Please don't question/doubt about my integrity/honesty regarding things of this nature/magnitude.

I have admitted that I don't know too much about history or details of events(exact date/timeline, names of specific places, etc),
partly because most of what I've been writing is actually based on my previous reading dating back many years, and I'm lazy/rather don't have time to
go back and find the same articles on the internet sites or so and repost thme here -- if they exist.

I don't come on this site/forum, wasting my/and your precious time, to spew forth some untrue/false/fabricated story, or create some unwarranted controversy, especially regarding someone/people/nation as important as Japan's 1st emperor/imperial family/Yamato clan/Japan, etc...

I also like to claim same kind of professionalism(??) regarding my other posts...

BTW, it was Portuguese who introduced hot chilli/pepper/spices, not Spanish...

See you later...
One Korean Man Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 02:51:00 (PDT)

OK,

I just researched that the Sui emperor invaded Koguryo because it refused to pay tribute and homage to China. They had frequent border skirmishes with each other. Often China sent ex-convicts to these far away regions and that is how trouble starts.

But, when the Sui emperor (Yangdi) led a campaign against the Turks, he marched with his armies into the Turkish camps and raided much booty and captives. Among those captives were ambassadors from Koguryo who sought Turkish aid in checking the Sui influence into northern Asia. The Sui Yangdi was infuriated when these captives confessed their true motives at the Turkish camp.

So, instead of border skirmishes, he then raised a large, mobile 1 million strong army from men of all over China. They were not highly trained and most were peasantry who had no martial vigor. They were mauled down by the Koguryo Ulchi Mundok. He did not face the Sui army head to head, but used scare and retreat tactics (as in the Sun Tzu "Art of War"). He knew the Korea terrain and weather better than anyone else. The Chinese got exhausted by the chase and got trapped and mauled. From Manchuria all the way to the Yalu lay corpses of these Chinese troops. Later, the Tang emperor made his army bury these dead men with honor along the trails. The next Tang invading army was just as large, but more seasoned and battle hardy. They had repelled the Turks and brought them under Tang submission. This new Tang army reached as far as Iran. Now, for them, Korea seemed a must vengeance for the earlier Sui humiliation and they again, underestimated Korean strength and determination. It took protracted battles and an uneasy alliance with Shilla to finally bring down Koguryo with force. The Chinese Tang armies later burned down so much of Koguryo capital, that the local people awaited an opportunity to drive them out. That came when Shilla sought native help in driving the Chinese out of Korea. However, not all of Koguryo was won back. Some remained in Chinese hands until the start of Song Dynasty.
The forgotten Koguryo story Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 02:09:49 (PDT)

Regarding the Altaic empire theories,

No such movement is in place and probably only makes one laugh thinking about it.

The only Altaic nation that wields a broad span of influence both in Asia and Europe has always been Turkey.

It has ethnic Turkic cousins in China, Central Asia, Afghanistan, Iran and Russia. And, they are all Muslim too.

This movement was termed "Pan Turkism" It was invented to counter the Pan Slavism movement of the early 19th cent. when Russia was liberating many Christian Slavic nations formerly under Ottoman control in the Balkans and Eastern Europe. To counter this, the Young Turks maintained that the Turks can abandon their territories in Europe and Africa, but they must fight to the last teeth protecting their "vatan" (eastern homelands in Asia, Anatolia and Central Asia). The Ottoman Sultans urged the Turkic Muslims of Russia to join his Muslim Umma (empire) and to wage jihad (holy war) against Russia. Many of these Central Asian Muslims did wage holy wars in World War I under the Ottoman inspired "Basmachi Movement." An Ottoman Turkish general (Enver Pasha) continued this Basmachi jihad against the Russian communists even after the World War I ended. He felt he was in his true homeland among Central Asian Turkic Muslims as he wrote in his memoirs. He led a charge against the Russians with sword in hand and on horseback. His last words were: "Bir vatan Turkestanlik. Allahu Akbar." (One Turkestani homeland. Allah is Great). Enver Pasha was riddled with machine gun bullets and died as a shahid (martyr).

Now, another theory was "Pan Turanism." This was the closest to Pan-Ural Altaic empire theory. It was invented by Hungarian students. They wanted to rid their nation of German and Russian dominance. So, they took this theory to Istanbul. The Ottomans only offered lip service. The Turks were too cautious of non-Muslims whether they are from the same race or not. Ottomans only focused on Pan-Turkism nationalism (esp. with Muslim Turkics).

WOULD COREANS YOUTH BE ABLE TO PICK UP ON PAN-TURANISM THEORY?

Just watch out for the next Nazi movements!!! I don't think Turks, Japnanese, Mongols, Finns and Hungarians believe in such fantasies.

Turkish children are taught of great warriors and conquerors arising from the Central Asian steppes. But, not because they are Altaic or Turkic, but because these conquerors did with their own will and genius, not bloodline theories. And, most Turks do not see themselves as Asian. They are closer to Arabs and Persians in their DNA. They are just Caucasoids who adopted a non-Indo European language of the conquering Turkmen tribes who numbered only in the thousands upon their arrival in Anatolia. And, even those Turkmen nomads might already have been mixed themselves in Central Asia and eastern Iran.
Pan Turanism ve Pan Turkism Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 01:51:25 (PDT)

no beautiful,

The last Song emperor was married to a Turkish Muslim princess. These types of marriages were common back then.

Later, the Yuan Mongol Emperor Khoshilla took her away from the last Song emperor.

There were many rumors that the son she bore later was not Khoshilla's but of the Song emperor's. This boy was the last Yuan emperor of China. Unlike other Mongol emperors, he lived long and reigned for longer time. He was frail and more into poetry than archery or wrestling. Yet, he had a chronic and unexplainable deep hate of Chinese. He even proposed genocide against them. And, it is rumored that he was well aware of the dubious origins of his paternity that caused him to think this.

The last Song Emperor later retired to a Buddhist monastery where it was said he committed suicide under mysterious circumstances. Some say it was because of the Mongol courts' desire to silence him on the true identity of the new boy emperor.

After defeat by Ming, the last Yuan Mongol emperor later fled back to Mongolia praries where later Mongol khans descended from him continued to rule on until into the Qing Dynasty. I think some of his descendants still live in Inner Mongolia and hold ceremonial government posts with Communist China.

I think it is time to have a checkup of their DNA to see if they are really from Genghis Khan's line or the Song royal line. This will put the rumors to rest once and for all.
biological or not? Saturday, June 15, 2002 at 21:26:46 (PDT)

Anyone here who knows Chinese history,

Can anyone please tell me why the Sui Emperor Yangdi dedicated much of his later reign and timely efforts to subduing Korea (esp. Goguryo kingdom)? Yangdi was a great achiever in promoting the arts and building a grand canal that economically and geographically linked northern China with southern China. He fought off Turkish and Tibetan invasions and increased trade along the western silk routes. But, why was he so obsessed with Korea? He personally led 2 or 3 campaigns in the Korea and 2 million Chinese troops either perished or were captured.

Then, the Tang did the same mistake. Tang Emperor Li Shimin was China's Alexander the Great. He beat the Turks so bad that he even deported a million of them into China and Sinicized them. He earned among the Turkic tribes the respected title "tanri khan" (heavenly khan). His armies penetrated as far as Persia and built a military outpost even in modern Tehran to safeguard the Chinese merchant caravans travelling west to Persia, Arabia and Rome.

But, he did the same mistake as his maternal cousin (Sui Yangdi emperor) who preceded him. Li Shimin built a fortified camp for his 1 million army in modern Beijing. He promised to "put Goguryo on its knees." He also personally led these campaigns. Initially, his armies penetrated deep into Goguryo territory. But, with winter and fierce resistance on Korean part, his tough army was assaulted at Ansi fortress and had to evacuate. Li Shimin emperor was said (by Korean sources) to have been shot by an arrow to one of his eyes. The next month, he retreated back to Manchuria and before departing he left gifts of silk for the Goguryo in recognition of the Korean bravery and determination.

Later empress (Tang Wu Zetian) and emperor (Tang Guozong) were finally able to crush Goguryo and Baekje with the aid of Shilla. By that time, Goguryo was already exhausted by all the battering by Chinese armies (for over 400 years since its existence). Since the fall of Han Dynasty and the Chinese army in Korea departed its military garrisons (Lolang), successive Chinese kingdoms have attacked Goguryo in attempts to recover these lost colonies. The Chinese (Jin) in 300 ADs sacked the Goguryo capital and burned it alive. The new capital of Goguryo moved farther east as a result. Later, the Turkic Wei also invaded Goguryo but could not do much. Then the Sui and Tang had their shares.

China was pushed out of most of Korea in 750 ADs by Shilla. The Chinese really had no business there. Most of Chinese economy was located in northwest China at that time. Chinese armies (the best ones) were posted in Central Asia and West Asia along the old silk routes leading to Byzantium. Their main concern for border safety always were the various Turkic and Tibetan tribal menace. What was Korea?

It was just a matter of pride. Sui and Tang wanted to teach a lesson and nothing all. Had they committed all of China's armies to focus on Korea, who knows what the outcome would have become? Tang also once explored the possibility of sending naval expeditions to Yamato (Japan) for its part in aiding Baekje when Tang forces invaded Baekje through the seas. The Japanese naval ships and land armies were no match for Tang and they were crushed along with the defeated Baekjae. But, Tang had no desire for Japan. It was very considered backwater land.

Why Korea? Had the Tang not wasted so much energy on Korea, perhaps Chinese armies could have marched all the way to Rome. The Arabs would not have been able to defeat Tang at Talas in modern Uzbekistan in 751 AD, had it not been for reliance too much on Turkic and Tibetan mercenaries (who betrayed Chinese at the last minute). One Chinese prisoner of war (Du-hua) was able to return to China in late 700 ADs to tell of his adventures in Iran, Iraq, and Syria. His Arab captors treated him well and some of the Chinese prisoners remained in Persia and Arabia as newly converted Muslims. They settled in these far away lands and taught Arabs how to produce paper. His (Du-hua's) journal talks of the lack of coordination among the foreign elements in Tang army and Chinese native ones that ultimately led to China's defeat in the west regions.

Had Tang not lost many men in Korea, they could have been put to use in West Asia against Arabs and checked the advance of Islam into Central Asia. Central Asia would not have turned Islamic and Turkic, but could have remained Buddhist/Zoroastrian and Sinitic/Iranoid had the Tang been able to beat the Arabs. Perhaps, the Chinese might also have been able to help bridge together the East Asian and European cultures... The Chinese had been there in Central Asia for 2 centuries before losing it all in one battle. Why? Because of pride. Too much focus on conquering Korea. Too many lives lost and too few to reinforce the more richer and important silk routes in Central Asia and West Asia.

In our history, our Tang and Sui forefathers were the aggressors in Korea. We had no other business to be there other than for emperors' pride. Tang had conquered Baekjae and Goguryo with Shilla's aid. But, Tang did not pour in more troops from interior to help solidify Chinese presence on the peninsula, so Shilla took advantage to drive them out after only 35 years of governing there. But, worst of all was this wars in Korea weakened Tang armies in other corners of the empire (namely the silk routes in Central and West Asia). Turks, Tibetans and Arabs took advantage.

It is just my take on our part of Chinese history. You guys be the judge...
not worth it Saturday, June 15, 2002 at 21:15:27 (PDT)

One last remark, the Japanese never persecuted the Chinese in Japan. The bustling and vibrant Chinatowns in Yokohama and other places are still there. Go to Korea and the Chinatowns have all died off due to once again, the xenophobic attitudes of the Koreans.

This is very true. Hong Kong cinema is popular among some japanese. When I visited Japan I saw a Chinese restaurant called "Jackie's Kitchen ". It turned out Jackie Chan had his own restaurant chain.
interesting forum Saturday, June 15, 2002 at 19:46:25 (PDT)

"I personally think Canto and Mandarin sound equally different than Japanese. Also Mandarin is much easier on the ears. So it puzzles me why the Japanese would rather learn to speak Canto."

The language of Hakka does sound more similar to japanese than mandarin. This is not an assumption. For example, many words have similar pronounciations-
yakshu (shake hands), denwa (telephone), jisatsu (suicide), basu (bus), etc.
By Southern Chinese, I mean Chinese people right now living there, such as Hong Kong. Foe example, Hong Kong was the most popular tourist spot in china for japanese tourists last year with 1.4 million visitors.
chinese influence Saturday, June 15, 2002 at 19:15:45 (PDT)

miriam quiambao is the most beautiful and elegant asian woman!
tu Saturday, June 15, 2002 at 18:37:47 (PDT)

"Chinese influence in Japan",

you consider Ryunosuke Akutagawa as "Chinese face type". What about typical Japanese face type and Yukio Mishima?
question Saturday, June 15, 2002 at 17:47:08 (PDT)

Dear Perspective,

You point out how Korean's excessive pride toward other Asians is due to the fact that Koreans stand up to white people. Is that so?

So, then what are your comments on Margaret Cho? Is she a "stand-up" example? Consider a second example. Recently, on Jay Leno, a male Korean American (who has been on Mad TV) comedian was making fun of his Mongoloid features, about how he could show no emotions through his slanted eyes.

In fact, Asian American history abound in examples of Chinese Americans "standing up" to white people. Among many, Bruce Lee, of course, presents an obvious example.

Having said this, let me posit a different theory as to the cause of Korean pride. Forgive my frankness and bluntness, but my "perspective" may provide for some insight. The cause, or root if you will, stems from what appears to be an inferiority complex very much on par with Afrocentrist views. Indeed, while this may be understandably justified given Korea's history of colonization, it does not help you in your pursuit or belief of the greatness of being Korean.

The more Koreans show their "pride" by, for example, proclaiming and reiterating how great their civilization is, the more this seems evident. This is not to say that Korean civilization isn't. But those Koreans who do so cut down their "greatness."

A Different Perspective Saturday, June 15, 2002 at 11:25:06 (PDT)

tavio dotel

i know they are not vietnamese or chinese but all i was saying is when i hear them speak the language it reminds of vietnamese, i wasnt labellng them vietnamese, and i cant help my grandpa's behaviour he wasnt being racist, people dont understand that asian looking people like filipino, vietnamese, chinese, remind whites especially people from south america of the asians that have stood out in western society, e.g. Bruce Lee was huge in south america. so sorry for any offence.
Roman Saturday, June 15, 2002 at 01:40:54 (PDT)

RARE STUFF, tri et al.

You said: >>>usually one doesn't find descendants of the kind of mixtures you described (Oguz/Han,Iranian/Han).<<<

Among the Armenians (a Christian people in southern Russia mountains who are related to the Iranoid races), there exists a noble family among them who claims Han Chinese descent. In fact, they claim to be related to the Han Dynasty royal family. They (the Mamikonian family) claimed to have left China in early 200 ADs and re-settled in Iran. Then, they moved further west to Armenia, which encompassed many parts of eastern Anatolia back then and was also part of the Iranian Arsacid Dynasty (Hou Han Shu refers to these Persian dynasty as "An Xi", or pacified west).

Here are the links:

http://rbedrosian.com/china.htm

http://rbedrosian.com/chinaft.htm

I once doubted this story, but in Iran as I learned, there does still exist an abandoned 2,000 year old fortress by the name of "Kala-i-Mamkun." I also heard there were 2 or 3 similar ones in the northern parts of Afghanistan. "Kala-i-Mamkun", simply means: "fortress or castle of the Mamkun" in the Farsi (Persian) language.

I highly suspect that "Mamigonian" is a derivative of the Chinese: "Man Gun," or "people's army." (in Cantonese dialect). Because this family later served as generals second in power only to the kings of Armenia. They were militarily inclined and believed in loyalty as a family cult. Often, they had also married Iranian Sassanian Dynasty princesses as a token of their submission and loyalty for the Sassanian Shahs (kings).

When Turks conquered Iran and Armenia, this Mamigonian family no longer played a political role in this region. They still exist amongst Armenians as commoners today.

Han and Iranian mixed in the past Saturday, June 15, 2002 at 00:36:58 (PDT)

Hafti,

I have no comment on Yueh women and poetry about them by Li Bai. I haven't read it but I assume Yueh people are from the same as Han, but just that Han tribe got more sophisticated and advanced. Many Chinese see the Yueh as "untamed Han." But, I know this was condescending thought.

But, regarding the beauty of Persian women and their popularity in Tang era:

The book was titled "A Second Flowering."

It is a fairly recent publication by an American or European.

page 195-196:

"Visitors from afar could find in the taverns Western (Persian and Sogdian) performers who both entertained them and reminded them of the delights of home. Many a Western (Persian and Sogdian) barmaid or courtesan was employed in these taverns to attract lonely merchants and help divest them of their money.

But, as in many modern cities, the foreign quarters were also magnets for native (Tang Chinese) citizens seeking the frisson of the exotic. So, affluent Chinese were drawn to the Western (Persian and Sogdian) performers-beautiful women from Kucha, Samarkand, Persia-in the literature of time. One wrote of the "Western houri [who] beckons with her white hand, inviting the stranger to intoxicate himself with a golden beaker." Some of these glamourous creatures seem to live and breathe in the words of over 1,200 years ago, as does this Western (Persian and Sogdian) woman described by the poet Li Po:

"That Western houri with features like a flower-
She stands by the wine-warmer, and laughs with the breath of spring
Laughs with the breath of spring,
Dances in a dress of gauzet!"

Men-about-town who wandered into the foreign quarter were not the only ones to be influenced by the exotic. The Chinese court itself attracted innumerable people from West and Central Asia. Many of these were, of course, emissaries of foreign nations. But, many were, in effect, "human tribute" sent by Western rulers hoping to ingratiate themselves with the Chinese Tang emperor. China's rulers had long been fascinated by the odd and unusual, in humans as well as things.

Many of these human tributes came eastward of their own free will, for West Asian dance, music, and conjuring found a wide and enthusiastic audience within Tang China. Appreciation of these West Asian delights was not limited to the rich and wellborn, for the early Tang victories had brought into China thousands of prisoners of war, some of whom had married Chinese. Among the most popular players were the musicians and dancers of Kucha and Samarkand, such as the Sogdian "twirling girls," dressed in scarlet brocade robes and loose trousers of bright green damask, who danced atop a series of rolling balls.

Poets and other writers enshrined the most popular performers in adoring word portraits. "Geisha of Chach," by poet Po Chui, for example describes 2 young women dancers from Chach (near modern Tashkent) dressed in bare-shouldered gause dresses with silver sashes, crimson brocade shoes, and bell-tipped peaked hats:

"Matched pair spread flat-the brocaded mats unroll;
Linked beats of triple sounds-the painted drums drive on.
Red wax candles are taken away, peach petals rise;
Purple net shirts are set in motion-the Chach [dancers] come!
Girdles droop from gilded thighs, flowered waists are heavy,
Hats revolve with golden bells, snowy faces turn."

From the book: "Climax and downfall of the Tang Imperial Gentry."

page 180:

The population of the empire had also increased; it seems to have amounted to some 50 million. The capital grew enormously, at times containing 2 million people. Changan, before its destruction in 881 had 110 wards. Each ward, like a ghetto, was surrounded by a wall with gates; at night the gates were closed. There was a special prostitution quarter, not too far from the centre of the city. Members of the gentry often secretly went there, though it was not allowed, and ate and drank and played games with the ladies. Many of China's best poets created their poems there in company of ladies and friends. Typically, a Chinese poet does not write poems at home, in his studio, but in a group in which one member may propose a theme and a rhyme pattern. Then, each member of the party may add a line or two; or each may create a whole poem, parallel to that of his predecessor.

The ladies also were famous musicians and dancers, many of them from West Asia (Persia and Sogdia), with their own local dances and their own music. Among the many imports of musical instruments and tunes, the import of the bow for string instruments at the end of the Tang era is important because it changed the style of music.

If the guests of the amusement quarter wanted to have more than just entertainment, they ordered the ladies to their houses."

After the fall of the Tang Dynasty, these Persian and Sogdian migrants and entertainers were no longer mentioned and it is assumed they melted and amalgamated into the general populace. But, the fact that Persian and West Asian type females were highly regarded for their beauty during Tang times is true.

Races of Asia Friday, June 14, 2002 at 23:54:03 (PDT)

Truth?

>>>Are you saying that it is more like Koreans are people who migrated from Japan? Then how is that Japan and Korea have similar languages? Also Japan and Korea, Mongolia, Turk are also classified under Ural Altaic languages. It doesn't make since how the culture flowed from island to the mainland and all the way to the west....<<<

Turks are more Islamically influenced and share more with Arabs and Persians than with any other people.

Mongolians are Lamaist influenced and share more with Tibetans than others.

Japanese and Koreans are within the Chinese-East Asian cultural orbit. Japanese don't deny their Chinese cultural influences. I don't know what Koreans nowadays say about their own culture? Please name one thing that Mongols have in common with Koreans other than the so-called (again, most say it's debatable and controversial) "ALTAIC" theory and shamanism?

I saw some posters already providing more than one website saying Koreans and Chinese share very close genes and that they both came from the same paternal DNA lineage (82% of Koreans and 95% of Han Chinese share the same haplotypes Y chromosomes).

We can lie about language, but we can't lie about DNA. It is genetically imprinted in our bodies and nobody can erase it. Even the legal system is basing much weight on it nowadays in solving violent cases.

Chinese and Coreans need to reevaluate each other honestly Friday, June 14, 2002 at 22:02:16 (PDT)

I sense some intertribal fighting here always (Asians vs. Asians).

We, the Asians of the Americas are not living in friendly territory. By this, I mean that whenever we live amongst others, there will always be competition. What more so than competition for mates?

I love studying genetics. I am fairly knowledgable on this field.

I have had the opportunity to look into the genes of South Americans and today I made a final research speech in class on this topic.

Most Columbians are genetically the result of Amerindian women with Spaniard and to a lesser extent, black men. At first, we always are led to believe that Indian men died out as a result of slavery, disease, alcohol and genocide.

Not entirely true.

Look nowhere else, but the same dating/mating patterns that occur among the Asian Americans.

The Amerindian women sold out their own men, like many Asian American women are now doing.

They see their own men as less of being "real men." They look at the smaller stature of their own men and compared them to larger white and black men.

The American Indian Man died out because he couldn't speak out his anger and pain.

His world, culture, language, religion and basically his livelihood was stolen.

Spaniard men enforced their will on all facets of Amerindian life. They even taught and brainwashed native women to see their own men as unattractive and eunuch-like. To this very day, modern terms in everyday Latin American speech reflects this legacy.

Latino parents would tell their sons and daughters to date lighter skinned mates, because it improves the blood (mejorar la raza, mejorar la sangre).

And, when Spaniard men saw the lack of or sparse hair on American Indian men's chest, they labeled as not being "real men."

Result was that the American Indian Man was psychologically and socially castrated. Their women all slept with Spaniard men and the American Indian Man dies out leaving no DNA imprint on the modern Americas whom he once ruled and walked all over.

Can this happen to us Asian men in the Americas as well?

I have this cringing fear all my life. Yes, I think it can. We might be living repeats of the American Indian Man.

But, we got some major assets that other non-white men never had in the face of adversity against other races men:

MONEY. Yes, this is POWER in every sense of the word. If you got it, you will be able to get love. Girls always say personality comes before looks and money. But, it is all BS. Girls have the feeble instinct to go for looks and manliness first among other things. But, if you got money and wealth, you will instantly be the attractive and loving man that you probably can never be if you didn't had any.

Another of our assets is that our East Asian/Confucian culture has a history and sophistication that predates even the white man's Christianity. To excel in life to the max. and be good to one another is our basic religion. That is all...We don't wait for heaven nor wait for money to fall from the sky. We make it happen in our own life and own hands.

That is why we are so hated. The American Indian man was wiped out. The black man will always be enslaved or imprisoned. But, the Asian Man will always recuperate in one fashion or the other.

Our main enemy is ourselves. It is the same game our ancestors played (using one tribe against the other for one's own benefit).

Asian guys should read the handwriting on the wall and be more alert of their surroundings and circumstances. We need to stick together at this pivotal point and time.

Please study the path of the American Indian Man as one sign or cause for concern. We have to be united and speak our minds.

When I made the speech today in my 12th grade history class, I saw some Asian females in the back smiling sarcastically, as were the other white girls as well. Only the Hispanic girls in class realized the pain and trauma of their origins. We need to reacquaint with our Latina sisters (aka Aztec, Maya, Olmec brethren). They are our kindred blood too and many don't want to diss Asian men as their own great-grandmothers did to their own American Indian men (aka our long lost, but now long dead brothers of the Americas).

I want the Asian brothers (of all tribes and ethnicities) to unite and also try to reacquaint our long lost Latina sisters into our heritage and nation. Americas is the future soil of a new Asian nation. One that is united and proud.
Remember Ishi, the last American Indian Man in California Friday, June 14, 2002 at 21:49:38 (PDT)

To "Chinese influence in Japan",

Actually, nihonjin prefer mandarin over cantonese. There are not many cantonese here so I do not know them. Cantonese is not at all like Japanese! It is wierd sounding to me when I watch hong kong movies. I personally like mandarin. Its melodic to my ears like singing. My language do not sound good in song I think. haha, my mother will slap me if I said that! I like Korean songs...it have right amount of soft and hard sounds. I do not know why you say we Japanese are kin to cantonese. I do not see any difference in preference as far as traveling in conecrned. me and my friends love Beijing capital and Xian. I was on typical tour of China 2 years ago. I feel very connected to that places maybe because I could read some of the old style Kanji! Very interesting and awesome. The buildings in Xian remind of Japanese. No kidding right since its old Tang style. Wow, the clay soldiers were so real looking for its 2000 years! I was very impressed by the splendor. Nothing in Japan compared with the big Chinese palace I saw but I still prefer Japanese palace style because its more natural and personal to me. I have not visit hong kong but from what I hear, people there more unruly than nihonjin! I dont know but I always thought Chinese are nice people. Of course, I am most comfortable with Japan and English for communication.

To "Truth?",

Please excuse my ignorance but I thought Japanese language is hard to categorize. Grammar is same as Korean yes...but is that enough to call Japanese language born from Korean? I hear from expert gaijins it could be some ancient tungusics from the continent visited Japan and mixed with us and then Koreans came to the area later and mixed with these same ancient non-Korean people and got their language. Could this is possible? Koreans and Japan might have recieve spoken language from one common non-Korean tribe who are now extinct or mixed into others. At that time, I think Korea is not even one culture or one people yet so calling the old original language Korean is not even appropriate.

About our current royalty, it is true a Baekje princess was married to one of ancestors. Did princess (queen) Takanono Niigasa keep her Baekje culture or did she embraced Yamato ways? I dont think Baekje culture affected Yamato at all. If so, please tell me what Japanese tradition or custom was from Korea. Please do not take this as insult. I respect Korea very much. Thank you.
Miyagi Friday, June 14, 2002 at 19:35:29 (PDT)

Language groups don't tell the whole story on race.

Take for example, the Turkic group, the Central Asian Uzbeks.

They are a mixed Mongoloid/Caucasoid group with an Altaic lingua.

When geneticists have recently conducted DNA research among them, it is known that their mtDNA (passed by mothers) were 46% Mongoloid (Turkic-Mongols).

But, however, their Y chromosome (paternal DNA) was overwhelmingly similar to that of their Indo-European neighbors (the Persian speaking Tajikis). This is very puzzling. Perhaps, the Mongols killed off their women and children, so they had no choice but to mix with incoming Turkic and Mongol women and adopt their speech. But, Uzbeks, as a whole are still more Caucasoid than the true Turkics (Kazakhs and Kirgyz).

Both Uzbeks and Tajiks display the same type of mixed racial feautures, with Uzbeks being a bit more Mongoloid. But, their culture, poetry, food, music, clothing and religion are identical.

Uzgunum Friday, June 14, 2002 at 17:54:14 (PDT)

Freda,

Actually I wasn't referring to your post when I stated my problem with the "all are evil" theory. My first post was in response to someone who more or less thought that. Maybe I should have been clearer. I never meant to say you thought that.
Turk Friday, June 14, 2002 at 17:31:17 (PDT)

This is my first time posting. But, got to say how nerve racking it was to read that poster who gave us a site signifying that over 82% of the Korean paternal DNA comes from the Chinese. I suspect this is fairly recent as I am a student of the Korean history. It is known that in the 16th century, over one-third of the Korean male population (of bearing age) were killed by the Japanese. This is the so-called "Imjin Wars" or "Sobuksun fleets of Admiral Yi." The Chinese Ming armies stayed on for over 6 years even after the Japanese departed after the second conflict and invasion. I can only assume that the Chinese Ming soldiers re-fertilized the depleted Korean gene pool. But, the Korean maternal gene pool is still Ural-Altaic, although the paternal one is Sinitic.
Jin Nam Friday, June 14, 2002 at 17:16:41 (PDT)

Chinese influence in Japan, Hoklo Chinese:
Most Japanese friends tell me they find about the same level of difficulty studying Mandarin as they do Cantonese. They can usually guess the whole pronunciation of word in either language (except for the tone, obviously) based on the Japanese pronunciation. But both languages have consonants and vowels absent from modern Japanese. Going the other way around, judging from JLPT scores, it's probably easier for Cantonese speakers to learn Japanese than Mandarin speakers.

The Indians from India who speak Cantonese are probably either those who left Hong Kong for India in the 80s and 90s cuz the handover turned them into stateless persons and they wanted to try to get an Indian passport, or maybe (though I doubt it) they are the children of the Indians who went back to India following Indian independence. Many Indians in HK today speak fluent Cantonese, but still face discrimination.
T.H. Lien Friday, June 14, 2002 at 14:51:48 (PDT)

HOW FILIPINOS SEE THEMSELVES

Most Filipino Americans agree that the Filipino community lacks a single strong voice. But they are in almost total agreement that they want to be called Filipino rather than Asian or Pacific Islander. The most distinctive characteristic of the Filipino people, they say, is that they are hard workers.
"Filipinos have integrated themselves so much into mainstream American culture that they've lost their own Filipino identity."
Agree: 43%
Disagree: 53%
Don't know: 4%

"Rivalries within the Filipino community make it difficult for the community to have one strong voice."
Agree: 72%
Disagree: 20%
Don't know: 8%

How active are you in . . .
Mainstream Filipino community - Filipino political American cultural organizations - organizations politics
Very active 12% 4% 4%
Somewhat active 25% 11% 22%
Not too active 27% 27% 25%
Not active at all 35% 57% 48%
Don't know 1% 1% 1%* * *

What do you consider yourself?
Filipino: 55%
*Pilipino*: 40%
Asian: 1%
White: --
Pacific Islander: 2%
Don't know: 2%

What are the most distinctive characteristics of the Filipino people? (Two responses allowed; six most frequent answers shown.)
Hard workers: 37%
Strong family ties: 14%
Generous: 13%
Educated: 10%
Loyal: 10%
Friendly/Good natured/Fun: 10%

* "Pilipino" is an alternative term for "Filipino"; it is preferred by some as an expression of national identity.
-- indicated less than 0.5%
Percentages do not add up to 100% because two responses were accepted from each respondent and not all answer categories are shown.

Source: L.A. Times Poll

filipino american poll Friday, June 14, 2002 at 13:19:19 (PDT)

Hoklo Taiwanese,

Hakkas and Hoklos in the Guangdong area are very different from the Taiwanese folks. They have a separate history and experience. I wasn't talking about the Hakkas and Hoklos in Taiwan, but the Cantonese speaking ones who reside in HK and the Guangdong province.

This is the problem with many Taiwanese, they think whenever someone is talking about Hakkas and Hoklos, they are referring to their own people. Not always!

The Guangdong province is a very diverse region. The word "Cantonese" is broadly defined just like the word "American"!

Cantonese is spoken in less than half of Guangdong's counties and districts. In a way, Cantonese is a minor dialect if you compared it to Hakka, Toi San, Chiu Chow and Hoklo which are all spoken within the province. The only reason why Cantonese has its universal appeal like English is because of Hong Kong's commercial importance and status.

East of the Guandong Province is Hakka and Hoklo territory. The Central and Western regions is Guanfu territory(Cantonese).

HONG KONG is the melting pot of the Guanfu, Hakka and Hoklo peoples. Most HKers traced their ancestry as one of these 3 groups. They are others who have Northern Chinese and Portuguese ancestries. TAIWAN is a melting pot of Hoklos, Hakkas, Mainlanders and aborigines. Obviously the Hoklos and Hakkas in HK and Taiwan share no relation with each other when it comes to history and cultural perspectives.

Japanese want to learn Cantonese because it is also more universal than Mandarin. Go to most parts of the world where there is Chinese and most of them speak Cantonese.

I'm sorry if I offend you, but the Taiwanese and the Northern Mainlanders are not really part of the overseas Chinese tradition. Their presence in many places are insignificant and in fact, many of them settled in places that were already established by the Guangdong people. I don't care whether its Southeast Asia, Europe, Africa, Latin America, US or Canada, we were in these places 1st, and all of you guys do is spout hatred for us, saying we are rude, lack refinement, loud...etc. Sometimes, you folks don't have any sympathy for us. Guangdong region is a harsh area, the hot and humid conditions, and the rough land caused us to seek the most practical endeavors such as commerce, trade, and farming, and not education. It also caused many of us to journey elsewhere to sustain our lives because Guandong is a not a home. Many of us weren't blessed like the Taiwanese or the Shanghainese who received a formal education. However, we were willing to westernize more readily than the other groups of Chinese, and maybe that's why the Japanese find us to be more compatible than the other groups.
To be honest with everyone, most Japanese would never say they are descended from Chinese or Koreans. They're some who are educated and would openly admit that there is a Chinese, Korean, Malay and Ainu component to the Japanese people, but most would rather keep their mouth shut and pretend to be naive on this issue.

If one studies the facial features of the Japanese, you know there are many types because of the different groups of people that migrated into Japan.

Sometimes other Asians need to sympathize the Japanese people as well. Their land is resource deficient. When this happens, people become aggressive, savage, power driven, and belligerent; these traits which described the Japanese of the previous generations.

Bad Sino-Japan relations can be very dangerous Friday, June 14, 2002 at 11:50:26 (PDT)

Koreans are better off not associating with anyone

One last remark, the Japanese never persecuted the Chinese in Japan. The bustling and vibrant Chinatowns in Yokohama and other places are still there. Go to Korea and the Chinatowns have all died off due to once again, the xenophobic attitudes of the Koreans.

>> I heard about this too. There are Chinatowns in almost all parts of the world, with the exception of Korea. Can some one tell me why this phenomenon

JM

JM Friday, June 14, 2002 at 09:43:31 (PDT)

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