Comparing Asian Nationalities | Asian American Poll

COMPARING ASIAN NATIONALITIES
(Updated Wednesday, Jan 22, 2025, 06:39:09 AM to reflect the 100 most recent valid responses.)

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Could anyone in this forum help me locating where this strange proverb: "Better be slain than insulted because being insulted is worse than to be slain"? I heard the English translation of it. Is it from a province of China?
strange proverbs Monday, June 17, 2002 at 09:42:47 (PDT)

Koreans and Chinese share the same fathers,

"82% of Korean Y chromosomes (passed from the dad) is shared by 95% of the Chinese"

I'm not a student of genetics, but it's obvious even to me that this particular factual tid-bit is completely meaningless.

If the implication is that the "Chinese" and Koreans are closely related: wupee. Is that a surprise?

However, if the implication is that the "Chinese" are the fathers of today's Koreans -- no, the study does not prove that.

Firstly, The "Chinese" so-called are too variegated a population group. They are a people united by culture and politics -- not genetics. For all practical purposes, there really is no "Chinese" gene -- if there was, Koreans and other Asian nationalities can be included in it, because, as I said, the Chinese are too broad a group. So to speak of the Chinese as being the fathers of the Koreans is not particularly meaningful.

Secondly, even the "Han", the so-called pure Chinese are too diverse a group. For all practical purposes, there really are no pure "Han" left to speak of.

Thirdly, the "Chinese" civilization is a combination of both semitic and altaic influences, and it has always been, even from its very beginning. To speak of "Chinese", ie, pure semitic, is inaccurate. China's cultural origins begins in the north where the semitic and altaic peoples came together and intermixed, and continued to intermix down to her many emperors who were partially or wholly of Altaic origins.

Fourthly, the Kija myth does not mean that "Chinese" man and his band married Tunguz women to form modern Koreans. The Kija myth, which is a legend from the Chinese historical records, only says that a group of "Chinese" immigrated to an already existant Korean kingdom. Kija may have been semitic or altaic, or both. We have no way to know (as ancient China includes both groups). It is logically unfounded to jump to the conclusion that somehow these immigrants significantly altered the Korean gene pool. Moreover, while Kija allegedly brought with him an advanced metal culture, it was not accompanied by Chinese political or cultural domination. Korea's altaic/tungusic culture continued uninterrupted and unabated.

Lastly, according to all the studies I've seen, the Koreans and the Chinese are disparate groups (that is, marginally. Of course, they will have more in common than not). Not surprisingly, they have more in common with other Tungusic/Altaic groups such as the Manchus, Mongolians and Japanese -- and share relatively more commonality with the "Northern" Chinese (as opposed to "Southern" Chinese, or other Chinese groups).

The bottom line is that the "Chinese" encompass almost all the spectrums of a rainbow (to use a metaphor). To speak of the Chinese as a homogoneous group, or even as a typical "nation-state" is flawed. The Chinese are an empire united by culture and a shared sense of history -- and less by genetics.

so Monday, June 17, 2002 at 08:41:55 (PDT)

Honestly i was enraged after reading about what happend in Indonesia 4-5 years ago, although i myself never witness incidents like this with my eyes. what is really sad and frustrating is the police not only help the victims, but incite the mobs or even enage in those atrocious act. the women were raped in public view and the indonesian people ignore and do nothing to help them. the brutailty wasn't done by a few but thousands men (i don't remember the exact figure???) the story somehow gives an impression a lot of them are like that. But it's stupid to think this way.

By the way, i never say all indonesians or all muslims are scums, or cockroachs.
Actually what i said is "Those indonesian men are not human beings". it doesn't mean all indonesians are bad and evil.

I understand that you must be seriously offended by my post. i know that my previous statement is very likely to come off as racial labelling. i truthfully apologize for saying that.

Hope things like that will never never happen again cos it's really a sick to stomach to read sad and horrible stories like that one.
Excuse my bad English.

gk Monday, June 17, 2002 at 07:52:24 (PDT)

All East Asian people (Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Thais, Siberians, etc.) share a common ancestral heritage in mainland Southeast Asia about 60,000 years ago, as inferred by the recent results of human genetics research by Chinese researcher Bing Su of the University of Texas, Houston, in conjunction with his colleague, Chunjie Xiao of Fudan University, Shanghai, China. His papers are published on a Stanford University website (http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_1999_v65_p1718.pdf) (http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/HG_2000_v107_p582.pdf) with the co-operation of L. Cavalli-Sforza, Stanford University, the father of research using human genetics in tracing the origin of humans throughout the world, as presented in his book, “The History and Geography of Human Genes” (1994).

Bing Su concludes that modern humans had arrived to mainland Southeast Asia from Africa about 60,000 years ago, and that a subgroup of them had reached the upper-middle Yellow River in mainland China 20,000 to 40,000 years ago. Bing Su’s recent scientific work may lead to a paradigm shift that could totally change the way in which we East Asians see ourselves.

Previously, the renowned Cavalli-Sforza, had concluded that northern Mongoloids (Mongolians, northern Han Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Siberians, Tibetans, etc.) were very different genetically from Southeast Asians (Vietnamese, Thais, Indonesians, Cantonese, etc.). Even more surprisingly, in spite of his results showing tremendous genetic distance between northern Mongoloids and Caucasoids, Cavalli-Sforza has a diagram in his well-read book showing northern Mongoloids having a common heritage with Caucasoids! Cavalli-Sforza’s work (1994) is reinforced by J. Philippe Rushton’s non-genetical work (1996), in concluding that Mongoloids were originally Caucasoids 41,000 years ago who evolved into their unique physical and emotional characteristics to adapt to the frigid Siberian tundra that ultimately made Mongoloids the most intelligent and civilized race. http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/jpr_rghrs.html

Not surprisingly, people of northeast Asian heritage were more than happy to adopt the works of Rushton as gospel as they portray them in a most flattering light. For over a century, Western researchers have played with the idea that the Ainus of northern Japan were Caucasoid, with some researchers even speculating that the Ainus were one of the Twelve Lost Tribes of Israel! Likewise, Korean and Japanese people were more than eager to identify themselves as members of the so-called ‘Altaic race’ as to somehow make themselves whiter by associating themselves linguistically with the white speakers of Uralic languages. Hilarious as they may sound, these unfounded and incorrect theories of Western researchers have had a profound impact upon the psyche of the Japanese and Korean people. During the critical period of the Second World War, the Japanese people believed that they were a unique race and failed to understand that they were Asians, and as a result, mistreated all other Asians with criminal savageness. http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news146.htm

We now know that with much certainty that Koreans and Japanese have no Caucasoid genetic composition, but instead are a very humbling mixture of Southeast Asian, proto-Chinese, and Australoid peoples, who nonetheless, have achieved a high degree of economic development in the last century! It is incredible that it has taken this long for someone to conclude that northeast Asians evolved from Southeast Asians. After all, empirically, even a child could see that northeast Asians look a lot more similar to Southeast Asians than to Caucasoids. Most East Asians have straight black hair, dark eyes, similar skin texture, and non-hairy bodies. For years, there have been ample data showing that the genetic distance between all East Asian peoples is really not that great. Nonetheless, there are some distinct differences. The subgroup of Southeast Asians that migrated to the upper-middle Yellow River in mainland China (the real heartland of the northern Mongoloid type) had to change their diet to adapt to the colder climate and blinding loess windstorms that are still prevalent today all along the Yellow River and affect even Seoul. Presumably, they became much larger anatomically, lighter skinned, and more intelligent, while their eyes narrowed to keep out wind-blown loess, developing the ubiquitous epicanthic fold prevalent amongst northeast Asians. By 8,000 B.C., these Proto-Chinese people (previously mischaracterized by Westerners as northern Mongoloids with frigid Siberia as their heartland) became the most advanced and capable people of East Asia and would one day expand into and dominate the lands that have long been settled thousands of years earlier by their fish-eating Malay-type cousins in Jomon Japan, southern Korea, Taiwan, southern coastal China, Indo-China and the Australoid-type Ainus of northern Japan. Perhaps Bing Su’s work (2000) will greatly help us understand that we East Asians are really one people after all, deserving of the commitment that we accord to blood-family members.

I Ching Monday, June 17, 2002 at 07:11:05 (PDT)

Korean Man,

Thank you for sharing the nice information about yourself and about Emperor Jimmu. It is good to hear that we japanese demonstrated understanding to your father, but I think Koreans in Japan demonstrated somethings more greater: courage and humanity. I remember a year and a half ago, a Korean man, Lee Soo-hyun, died trying to rescue a man who had fallen onto the train tracks at Shin-Okubo station (Tokyo). He sacrificed his life for a man that would have probably not have done the same for him because of Lee's foreign status. I was very moved when I heard about this. It is truely remarkable that Mr. Lee was would risk his life for a drunken Japanese man who fell because of his own foolishless. Many dignitaries, Japanese and Korean went to his funeral. Right now, we have probably forgotten about Mr. Lee and his noble act. We Japanese can be so hypercrite sometimes.

Anyways, I believe more research needs to be done on the matter of the Yamato clan. I can accept the truth if it is really proven without a doubt. When you wrote about your father, I began to think and I can say without regret that personally I believe my country cannot be sorry enough to Korea, China and Hawaii for the hurt done by our soldiers. I only in college age so I do not have the hate but I understand it is still under the surface in Korea which I visited last year. Even after the bad experience, I would like to go back to Korea and visit more cities. It is very beautiful landscape and fiery food and people!

Nihonjin I know believe in a peaceful world especially with our neighbors. I am sad there are people who still hate us. This hate is maybe responsible for revisionism? I am not referring to the thngs Korean Man have mentioned,I mean it is stuff that is not evidence at all. I am sorry to bring up useless things but a Korean scholar said our Samurai is based on Korean and that China's Yellow Emperor is Korean. I hope Korean Man can educate me on why Koreans like to say these things or is there facts that we do not know about? Isn't Chinese records older than Korean records? Where did Korean scholar get the notion of Yellow Emperor is Korean? From many experts, Samurai is indigoneous class of Nihon maybe originally Hokkaido swordsmen in the North where very old prototype Samurai swords were found. It have distinct curve in sword only samurai sowrd have. If Korean, would it not from West Japan? I apologize, I am stupid in historical details about China, but isn't Yellow Emperor is legend? How can Korean scholar say he is really a Korean? I konw I ask too many questions,haha All the wise people on Goldsea, please enlighten me!
Miyagi Monday, June 17, 2002 at 06:43:51 (PDT)

"This is very true. Hong Kong cinema is popular among some japanese. When I visited Japan I saw a Chinese restaurant called "Jackie's Kitchen ". It turned out Jackie Chan had his own restaurant chain."

He has his own clothing chain in Japan also. And he says he's not making money from it.

I thought Korean cinema is pretty hot now among young Japanese nowadays.

Hoklo Taiwanese (also a Chinaman) Monday, June 17, 2002 at 06:09:58 (PDT)

"The language of Hakka does sound more similar to japanese than mandarin. This is not an assumption. For example, many words have similar pronounciations-
yakshu (shake hands), denwa (telephone), jisatsu (suicide), basu (bus), etc."

There are also a few words from mandarin and Min-nan ("Taiwanese") that sound close to Japanese. Telephone in both Mandarin and Min-nan can be said to sound similar to Japanese. So what? But the system of pronounciation and grammar are completely different. If you say an Italian can easily learn Spanish, then I'd agree...same alphabets, almost the same pronouciation rules. Japanese language and Chinese dialects are differnt worlds.

"By Southern Chinese, I mean Chinese people right now living there, such as Hong Kong. Foe example, Hong Kong was the most popular tourist spot in china for japanese tourists last year with 1.4 million visitors."

Hong Kong is a popular place to visit by many other nations, not just Japan. It's an international trading center once colonized by Britain. So in a way it's not really the real China. In other words, HK is not a "backwards" place like many cities in other parts of China. Let me ask, what do most Japanese tourists do when in HK?

Hoklo Taiwanese (also a Chinaman) Monday, June 17, 2002 at 06:06:11 (PDT)

"Hakkas and Hoklos in the Guangdong area are very different from the Taiwanese folks. They have a separate history and experience. I wasn't talking about the Hakkas and Hoklos in Taiwan, but the Cantonese speaking ones who reside in HK and the Guangdong province."

Ahhh, then you should've said the Japanese are very similar to Cantonese speaking Hakkas/Hoklos. Still, my question is how?

"This is the problem with many Taiwanese, they think whenever someone is talking about Hakkas and Hoklos, they are referring to their own people. Not always!"

No, it was your obligation to make yourself clear. If you were to ask me whether the Hakkas/Hoklos from Guandong and Taiwan are identical in culture, I would've told you "most likely not."

"Cantonese is spoken in less than half of Guangdong's counties and districts. In a way, Cantonese is a minor dialect if you compared it to Hakka, Toi San, Chiu Chow and Hoklo which are all spoken within the province."

....which make your earlier assertion puzzling again. That is, if southern China is so diverse in dialects and ethnicities, just in what ways are the Japanese similar to Southern MAINLAND Chinese, especially those Cantonese speaking ones?

"HONG KONG is the melting pot of the Guanfu, Hakka and Hoklo peoples. Most HKers traced their ancestry as one of these 3 groups. They are others who have Northern Chinese and Portuguese ancestries. TAIWAN is a melting pot of Hoklos, Hakkas, Mainlanders and aborigines. Obviously the Hoklos and Hakkas in HK and Taiwan share no relation with each other when it comes to history and cultural perspectives."

Depends on how far back you see it. The Hoklos/Hakkas in Tawan have their ancestry originating from Fujian province and perhaps some from Eastern Guandong. Where do the same groups in HK came from? Mars? These groups from Taiwan and HK certainly had shared the same long history up until a few hundred years ago.

"Japanese want to learn Cantonese because it is also more universal than Mandarin. Go to most parts of the world where there is Chinese and most of them speak Cantonese."

That's what I said. Most Chinese one meets are Cantonese speaking. So certainly, if a Japanese wants to learn Chinese because of a working or friendship environment, most likely it's gonna be Cantonese. But what if he/she wants to learn Chinese formally and seriously by going to school (outside HK)? Is it gonna be Mandarin or Canto?

"I'm sorry if I offend you, but the Taiwanese and the Northern Mainlanders are not really part of the overseas Chinese tradition.....and all of you guys do is spout hatred for us, saying we are rude, lack refinement, loud...etc."

Well I'm not really sure what to make of the well established overseas Chinese tradition, since the Taiwanese haven't established their own long enough for me to make a comparison. I never used the words rude, lacking refinement, loud. But this is what I'll say. The Japanese do seem to be much more polite, refined, quiet than the Cantonese. So again, my question is how did you come to the assertion that the Japanese are very similar to the Cantonese speaking southern Chinese.

However, I did say that Cantonese is not too easy on the ears as compared to Mandarin. Personally I think "Taiwanese" isn't easy on the ears either, but still more so than Cantonese. I'm just telling you my honest observation from my limited experience.

"Sometimes, you folks don't have any sympathy for us."

HK has never been worse than Taiwan to live in. It's the Cantonese people's own choice to immigrate. Nobody forced them to. Why must they think they deserve sympathy from the Taiwanese? You think it has always been easy for the immigrant Taiwanese? And what kind of sympathy do the Cantonese want from the Taiwanese?

"Guangdong region is a harsh area, the hot and humid conditions, and the rough land caused us to seek the most practical endeavors such as commerce, trade, and farming, and not education. It also caused many of us to journey elsewhere to sustain our lives because Guandong is a not a home. Many of us weren't blessed like the Taiwanese or the Shanghainese who received a formal education."

Then why don't the Guandong people go elsewhere in China where there's better living conditions instead of Western foreign lands. Worse living condition/environment in Guandong is just no reason. There are large areas in other regions of China, including north, that were not "easy to live in." You can't compare a major city like Shanghai with a whole province like Guandong. Many people in rural areas in Northern China couldn't receive formal education either.

People have been living in Guandong for thousands of years. How can you say Guandong is not a home for anyone. If it could be a home for the non-Cantonese speaking people, then why it couldn't be one for the Cantonese?

"However, we were willing to westernize more readily than the other groups of Chinese, and maybe that's why the Japanese find us to be more compatible than the other groups."

Not exactly. The reason is about economic status again, not the nature of the Cantonese. Many Cantonese are from HK, especially the young ones, who are relatively wealthy. In China, it's generally true that it's only the rich that have the ability to westernize...go abroad, study abroad, wear expensive western attire, consciously act western, etc.. HK has been a world trade center for so long and had been a colony of Britain also. It only natural that its citizen have been getting more exposure to western civilization. What about those poor Cantonese in rural Guandong?

I'm looking for cultural factors when I ask how is the Japanese very similar to the Cantonese.

"Sometimes other Asians need to sympathize the Japanese people as well. Their land is resource deficient. When this happens, people become aggressive, savage, power driven, and belligerent; these traits which described the Japanese of the previous generations."

From what you just said here, you obviously have no clue about the Japanese war against China. Resource definciency is no excuse to murder people of other nations.

It's clear to me now that you're just another Japanophile, kissing up to everything Japanese, very typical of HK youths.

Oh, one thing about what others would call Cantonese unrefinement. Ever witness a Cantonese wedding banquet? Why does everyone have to bang their dining wares in concert, chipping the bowls and spoons in the process. And the waiters don't place the plates/bowls, but instead throw them onto the table while the customers are sitting there, making loud noises and chipping the wares. I suppose it's not that the Cantonese are unrefined, but just that I'm going through culture shock. If the Cantonese are so capable and willing to westernize, why haven't they trashed this part?

Hoklo Taiwanese (a Chinaman once colonized by Japanese) Monday, June 17, 2002 at 05:07:24 (PDT)

http://www.chinatown-online.com/cultureeye/common/four.htm

"Yet with such beauty bestowed by fate,
How could she remain unknown!
One day she was chosen
To attend to the emperor.
Glancing back and smiling,
She revealed a hundred charms.
All the powdered ladies of the six palaces
At once seemed dull and colourless.
One cold spring day she was ordered
To bathe in the Huaqing Palace baths.
The warm water slipped down
Her glistening jade-like body.
When her maids helped her rise,
She looked so frail and lovely,
Immediately winning the emperor's favour."

Four most beautiful chinese women in history Monday, June 17, 2002 at 02:49:01 (PDT)

To A Different Perspective:

Please re-read my post. It doesn't speak at all to the question of the roots of Korean "pride." I'm sure much of it does have to do with feelings of inferiority, not only vis-a-vis other asians but vis-a-vis Europeans as well. Hardly a stunning revelation.

As for Margaret Cho (can't speak about the guy from Mad TV because I've never seen him), I'd hardly categorize her as someone who is cowed by whites (no pun intended) or who kisses anyone's ass. Yes, she makes fun of herself, of her ethnicity, etc. but she's a comedienne for God's sake, and there's nothing more unfunny than a self-serious comic, no? I admit, sometimes she makes me cringe with embarrassment, but I don't think Asians are any the worse for what she does; on the contrary, she's one tough bitch and thus does a lot to subvert at least one persistent stereotype of Asian woman (unlike Ally McBeal's 'Ling'--a pseudo-tough bitch who only reinforces stereotypes). It's also quite evident to me that despite everything she's quite close to her family and quite proud of who they are. She's not putting down Asians to gain acceptance among whites.

Of course, in my post, I wasn't talking about prominent Asian entertainers, who, as entertainers after all, have to sell themselves to a certain degree. I was talking about average Korean-Americans. But since you brought it up, take a look at Rick Yune. His attitude is quite typical among Koreans here. He makes it a point not to accept roles which reinforce facile stereotypes and he recognizes his responsibilities as a prominent Asian male. In other words, he won't play the Jackie Chan/Martin Yan clown. I never said there aren't Chinese Americans who do this as well. I think Ming ? from the Food Network aquits himself with dignity. I was merely pointing out a perception among Korean AMericans. What, for example, did you make of "attractasianwomen.com"? It's hard for me to imagine a korean writing something like that in earnest, but I do see chinese americans willing to do similar things. I'd like to see that stop, so I point it out, for the sake of all Asian-Americans.
Perspective Monday, June 17, 2002 at 00:15:36 (PDT)

Pilipino is a Tagalog term. Its a term being rammed down the throats of non-Tagalogs by the government and the media. I never use it. Educated Cebuanos, Illongos, Capampangans, and the other 165 ethnic groups in the Philippines shouldn't use this term either.

I find it disgusting that Filipinos equate nationalistic pride with learning to speak Tagalog. I am an Illongo and I never learned to speak Tagalog, nor do I wish to learn it. Illongo is my language and is my identity. I am proud of my Illongo roots and every other non-Tagalog should be proud of their own ethnicity.
The teedot in 2k3 Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 20:11:57 (PDT)

To "Han and Iranian mixed in the past":

You refer to a source that states itself that 1) the legend might not be true and 2) the legend could be interpreted as a mixing of Turkicized Iranians with Armenians.
What I was reffering to was that you cannot prove if e.g. the people called Sai (=Said?) possess even a fragment of a Western chromosome.From the Uighurs who are probably Mongolid Turks mixed with a few Iranids it is known that there occur men among the Uighurs who look completely like Iranids (Caucasoids in the broader sense).So there shouldn't be any confusion because all or nearly all others among the Uighurs look totaly Mongolid. As you can see then real Iranians would be strikingly remarkable among Han and vice versa.
rare stuff Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 17:46:34 (PDT)

Before the formation of Paekjae by Puyo tribes, this southwestern section of Korea was ruled by the Samhan (3 Han) kingdoms. They were founded by descendants of King Chun who lost Old Chosun to the usurping of Wiman Chosun. His son fled south and continued the Old Chosun lines (which claim descent from Kija Chosun).

So, it is fair to say that the people of this part of Korea may have had among them some Chinese long, long times ago.
Chosun Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 17:21:24 (PDT)

To "remember Ishi,the last American Indian...":

The racial and cultural gap between Asians and Amerindians and even between Asians and Asians is too big to be bridged. Either people will consume together or avoid each other. If you can't bring two brothers together you won't bring several races together by the argument of common genes.To get any positive perspective at all you must enter the "alternative" scene and meet hippies,people who "see" UFOs etc. Do you really want that??
Idle thoughts,but where is the connection to the more practical stuff?
rare stuff Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 17:19:18 (PDT)

To all the Koreans here,

I am Korean myself. I must say that I am happy to know that our DNA's paternal line is mainly with the Han Chinese. At least, we knew our ancestors were great people who build the worlds best and longest civilization. I rather be with Han Chinese than with Mongol barbarians.
Jin Nam Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 17:10:03 (PDT)

To One Korean Man, Miyagi, Hafti, Tri, et. al

I just want to say that as an Asian American, I already knew we came from the same tribe whether we want to know it or not.

It is only in the mind that we see or want to find differences to distinguish our nation (the Asian nation).

I have read all the DNA tests. It only confirms what we knew all along. We are all linked. Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc.

We are all one nation connected by the same genes in us.

Have you guys checked the DNA of Indian (I mean East Indians)? Their mtDNA (maternal) as well as Y chromosome (paternal) has more in common with Southeast Asians than they do with West Asians (Caucasoids). They are really Dravidians with limited amounts of Caucasoid mixture. So, yes, even the Indians are genetically closer to us than they are with Europe or the Middle East.
United Asia Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 17:07:00 (PDT)

One Korean Man,

I found this on:

http://hgm2002.hgu.mrc.ac.uk/Abstracts/Publish/WorkshopPosters/WorkshopPoster11/hgm0542.htm

POSTER NO: 542

Study of Korean Male Origins

Sunghee Hong, Seong-Gene Lee, Yongsook Yoon, Kyuyoung Song
University of Ulsan College of Medicine, 388-1 Poongnap-dong, Songpa-ku, Seoul, Korea

Population studies of genetic markers such as HLA variation and mitochondrial DNA have been used to understand human origins, demographic and migration history. Recently, diversity on the nonrecombining portion of the Y chromosome (NRY) has been applied to the study of human history. Since NRY is passed from father to son without recombination, polymorphisms in this region are valuable for investigating male-mediated gene flow and for complementing maternally based studies of mtDNA. Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of Korean. By using 38 Y chromosome single nucleotide polymorphism markers, we analyzed the genetic structure of 195 Korean males. The Korean males were characterized by a diverse set of 4 haplogroups (Groups IV, V, VII, X) and 14 haplotypes that were also present in Chinese. The most frequent haplogroup in Korean was Group VII (82.6%). It was also the most frequent haplogroup in Chinese (95%) as well as in Japanese (45%). The frequencies of the haplogroups V, IV, and X were 15.4%, 1%, and 1%, respectively. The second most frequent haplogroup V in Korean was not present in Chinese, but its frequency was similar in Japanese. We have tried to correlate the Y variation with surname to determine how well the clan membership corresponds to Y variation. There were 37 surnames in our sample but genetic variation structure did not correlate with surnames.

---------------------------------------
LANGUAGE CAN ALWAYS CHANGE, BUT NOT GENES.

If Japanese should accept their Baekjae origins, then I think Koreans should also reconsider the Kija Chosun origins that is so intently deleted in Korean historical texts and knowledge these days, despite an abundance of artifacts that prove a movement of Chinese into Korea took place during those times. The variety of Bronze found in Korea after 1000 BC is of the Han Chinese (Shang types) variety and not Tunguz-Siberian types. If Tangun (a myth), then why cannot Kija Chosun (a real man with a real record)?

You see, it is the same argument you Koreans give to the Japanese. If we look at DNA, then I can say all the East Asians came from the Chinese: the Koreans, Japanese, Tibetans, Viets, Cambodians. And, the DNA does prove Japanese to have come from Koreans, and that Koreans came from Chinese (paternally). It all comes back to the original.

Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese all came from the same fathers Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 16:59:15 (PDT)

I am Chinese and our history and elder folks keep mentioning that the Japanese were descended from the Qin Dynasty. Around the 300 BCs, a Qin official (Dufu) was ordered by the emperor to find an elixir of youth from the eastern islands (Japan). If he couldn't find it, he and his crew would be beheaded. So, he gathered some 5,000 men and women to search for it. They never returned. It is likely they melted in with whatever Tunguz, Ainu, Yueh and Malayan peoples who were already living in Japan at that time. Japanese today still claim Dufu (Jofuku) landed and eventually settled somewhere in Fukuoka (named after him) and rested in Shikoku island. Dufu's arrival corresponded to the era when Yayoi type skulls and mainland (ie Chinese types) rice culture and civilization first appeared in Japan and replaced and or coexisted with earlier Jomon era. It was also around this time, that the Jimmu Tenno legends make appearance.

But, most scholars suspect that the later Emperor Onin (with keyshape tomb) was the first real recorded Yamato emperor.

Yes, a Korean Paekjae princess married into the Yamato line. But, the 2 royal families must have had pretty close relations for this intermarriage to occur. We can only speculate if it was for political or familial obligations those marriages between royal families?

I still really think if the Japanese had allowed closer examination of the early imperial tombs would much light come to the surface.
tri Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 16:39:15 (PDT)

JM,

The Chinese economic influence in Korea at one time can be comparable to the ethnic Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia. During Qing Dynasty, much of Korea's big commerce was in hands of ethnic Chinese. They often oversaw the annual tribute that Yi kings sent to Beijing.

Even when Japanese took over in 1895, they allowed the Chinese to keep their middlemen role.

But, in 1960s, the nationalist dictator Park Chung Hee made it hard for the Chinese merchants and the Chinatowns in Seoul. Even if the ethnic Chinese were born in Korea for many generations or even had Korean moms and grandmothers, they were still seen and labeled as Chinese, thus they were "foreigners" and not allowed to become citizens. I don't know how it is now?

And, the "foreigners" had to pay exuberant taxes on their properties and businesses. Many, in effect, got driven out of business or competition. Many Chinese businesses were thus sold at much lower their profit rates to ethnic Koreans. Then, many of these ethnic Chinese in Korea migrated to USA or Taiwan.

In USA, these ethnic Chinese from Korea don't associate with other Koreans no more, even though if their only home language is Korean. I knew one ethnic Chinese from Korea who told me during the LA Riots of 1992, that ethnic Koreans don't know how to be good merchants. And, he did not feel any remorse for the riots. I can only suspect that he had a hard time growing up in South Korea.
overseas Chinese Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 16:07:14 (PDT)

chinese influence,

Those Hakka and Japanese words and expressions is also the same in Cantonese.

The reason is simple. Cantonese and Hakka is closer to the older Chinese languages (Han Dynasty and especially, Tang Dynasty).

Japanese borrowed much words from Tang, including daily expressions. The adviser (forgot his name?) of the Japanese Emperor, Shotoku was of Chinese descent. His family fled Korea in 200ADs when Han Dynasty power waned there and Koguryo were murdering Lolang Chinese. Shotoku later sent him to Tang China, where the Chinese offered him a government post, but he left after a couple years. He brought back much Tang Chinese influence to Japan.
Bob Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 15:32:45 (PDT)

Races of Asia:

It is true Those types of marriage exist since the Song or Tang Dynasty but in general it is not common. but thx for the interesting info.
No most beautiful race Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 13:07:00 (PDT)

To, Races of Asia;

The Han and the Yueh were different tribes altogether. The Han originated in the northwest while the Yueh originated in the southeast. The Yueh were originally more advanced in agriculture. In history there has been many instances where the Yueh and the Han fought, ultimately, undersized and outnumbered by the enemy troops, they evacuated south but many stayed. Their agricultural advancement stayed with them when they moved down, BUT a lot of the blacksmiths and such died or didn't care to move.

The modern Han today are considered to be the result of the mixture of the people from the seven states or such of which the original Hans conquered. The Yueh the poets mentioned i doubt were the Yueh's as by Li Bai's time the descendents would have a majority of Han blood while the more pure Yueh moved somewhere never to be written in history again. When he mentioned Yueh he could have been just referring to the southern chinese in general.
Chinese Guy Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 11:15:17 (PDT)

Honestly speaking, I'm a Japanese guy who believes that we Japanese have some irrefutable connection to the three Korean Kingdoms. Most of our aristocratic families have orginated from the kingdom of Paekjae. We can easily distinguish these aristocratic families from the feudal Japan by their last name as they resemble Korean surnames. As most peope know, most Japanese did not have last names until meiji restoration during the 19th century. Such names using more than one simple chinese characters exemplify this. Ex are namese like yamada, yamaguchi, etc. Most Japanese know of this connection, but don't think too much about it. America has built itself a new nation in couple of centuries. With that fact in mind, 1300 years is a lot of time as we are now completely a different country culturally. Nations are differentiated based on culture not genes. With that in mind I along with many many Japanese believe most if not all of Korean's historical claim based on facts, but I do not appreciate its significance. If if start talking like that we are all Africans. However, as a Japanese, I believe that we should have better relationship with Korea for it is our neighbor country. In respect to what I have just said. we should all stop this nonsense with claims of national superiority. I believe that all three nations of north east asians are very close alike and they all are capable of greatness. We are somewhat different culturally, but we all have the will for greatness and the great intelligence to accomplish it.
Japanese remark Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 10:47:28 (PDT)

After looking at all the post here at this website. I'm befuddled by all the comments about facial types. What defines Chinese, Korean and Japanese facial type. As far as I'm concerned. We are so much alike that there is hardly any difference. Some person claimed some Japanese actors look more chinese than Korean? How could one use something like that as a scientific basis for their belief. Too me it all seems silly. And another big point. Even if you can classify facial type of chinese, how can you say one type epitomize China when there are so many ethnic groups with more than 1 billion people. I have heard from texts in China that the northern chinese resemble korean and japanese as they are more ural altaic with taller height and bigger body, narrower head, smaller eyes, and pointy nose. And of course you are going to have exceptions as there were many mixing of blood in Korea and Japan with people from Souther China faical type as they are generally shorter with double eyelids, rounder face, and flat noses.
Confusion and clarifications Sunday, June 16, 2002 at 10:28:47 (PDT)

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