Comparing Asian Nationalities | Asian American Poll

COMPARING ASIAN NATIONALITIES
(Updated Wednesday, Jan 22, 2025, 06:39:09 AM to reflect the 100 most recent valid responses.)

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WHAT YOU SAY

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http://glennh.tripod.com/wa_jpn_ykct.htm

"In October, there are two parades [in Yokohama Chinatown]. One for the Independence of Taiwan (from China). The other for the Independence of China (from Taiwan?). If you care to track such things, the Taiwanese celebration drew a lot more people, the year we lived there."

What the hell? Anyone can elaborate and/or explain this?

Hoklo Taiwanese Wednesday, June 26, 2002 at 06:42:08 (PDT)

To, the traveLLer;

You seem to be one of those vietnamese that wants to be of chinese origin. The dna tests don't even support that well, what? 20% had that haploid gene. I'm chinese and know that the vietnamese are the Yueh tribes, or one of them, what's wrong with you? Don't you know they were totally independent? Plus, the feet thing is true, i went to Hanoi before (plane stop to thailand for vacation) and i saw most people having a longer second toe. I'm chinese by the way, and i'm pretty sure those sites are false, or written through the ideas of one person.
Proud Canto-American Wednesday, June 26, 2002 at 00:25:13 (PDT)

To, the traveller;

Do you have more then just ONE site to prove ONE idea? With only one site i can be REALLY biased. From what i know i have atleast an encyclopedia, a website, and literature, and also oral history from family. They all fit on the same line. Your sites seem to be just editorials in the views of a single writer. What most people here, either then you, supported their ideas with universally accepted ideas, supported by more then just one source. The chinese, vietnamese, and french have basically EXACTLY the same information, but for some reason i don't see the sites information you've given to fit into any of the nations sources. I learnt most of what i say in school when i was young. I've read it in historical sites, multiple ones, i've heard it in literature, through orally pasted histroy and also archealogical evidence. I'll show you some flaws in your posts.

*BTW: Many Vietnamese claimed that 30-40% Vietnamese language is from the French language, please provide me the source. I can understand you are being a patriot, but common, there're more than the book.*

Your taking what people say in a lounge (for example) as truth? Plus many doesn't mean 'most', not even majority accepted. I had NEVER heard that one before. I only notice a few french derived words in my daily use, like bede (the word for homosexuality) and a whole bunch of appliances and technology the vietnamese didn't have before. The french only introduced words the vietnamese DIDN'T have, not replacing words that were already there.

*Notice to rule the land, you need to speak the same language as the commoner the same case could be said as the Manchu controlled China, not the other way around. Please use your common sense rather brainwashed literature.*

Not necessarily. If you know about the original inhabitants of Iran and its Arabian rulers. The Iranians had thier own religion, as a majority in the community. But the Arabians forced Islam upon them, that is the truth. It is comparable to the vietnamese and chinese (well the chinese TRIED to restrict the viet language but failed, after a thousand years it did not work). MANY examples prove otherwise from your statement, plus the population of vietnam wasn't overwhelming like china's. 9 million at that time isn't much, and could have been easily subdued. Especially with all those acts of killing men, raping, and castrating they did. And what i find MOST offencive the restriction of the vietnamese culture of that time, which included language.

*And if the Chinese took control in Vietnam, would they put some aristocrats or the local people(whom they no idea that they might rebel against them any days) to rule the newly empire. You are drunk if you think the other way. Based on my oservation, the aristocrats in Vietnam were the Chinese themselves; whereas, the commoners are many ethnics that lived in that region with diverse culture.*

NO DUH, BUT the times you were speaking of is a time different from what most are talking about. When people refer to vietnamese emperors, they refer to the rulers after Ngo Quyenh regained independence for vietnam. The time your probably talking about is the time before Ngo Quyenh, which even to your information is WRONG. At that time there were to emperors, only generals and magistrates there to control the capital, VERY little interaction was made in between the villages. THUS, most of the heroes were born in the villages of vietnam, the ones who fought for independence were ethnic vietnamese, while the rulers were usually chinese generals who were posted there. Like Ngo Quyenh (easier to just refer to one guy, if i go on with other guys it will just stretch this a bit farther).

*I agree that there are many ethics in Vietnam that is why I said there is no real Vietnamese, didn't I?*

Well, when people say vietnamese they refer to the ethnic viets or kinh. The ethnic viets and nationality viets are different. The word vietnamese can refer to nationality, the people born in this nation is considered of that nationality. Like even if i was asian i can be french through being born there. But also the vietnamese are also an ethnic. The word viet refers to the kinh/viets. Nam means south, it refers to the viets of the south. Vietnamese= people of the southern viets, so it refers to the southern viets.

*Another question if Guam and Puerto Rico is a territory of the U.S., why are they not a state yet? And what do you consider of them? Another country? Duhh, duhh...they are another country but they are a territory of the U.S., but they also pay tax to the U.S. government but they claimed they are another country.
And tell me, what is the real "Vietnamese" language, as you described in your post?*

FYI, the REAL vietnamese language is the OFFICIAL language which is used by more then 90% of vietnam's population. Also at that time vietnam was fully independent of china, the officials were locally chosen, and the ruler was ethnically vietnamese. The internal and foreign/international affairs were both determined by the people. The defence and economy was determined by the people. It wasn't dependent on china at all. A country under anothers "sovereignty" as your site stated means it is controlled by the whole of the territory, but in vietnam's case it wasn't so. If china had a war it didn't mean vietnam was in the war, vietnam paid tribute to show good siding with the chinese rulers, so another war would not insue.

*Man, you are some character... As for Vietnam or "Annam" back then, it was still uncultivated and a wild land with many Indian tribes. Please click on: http://www.uglychinese.org/vietnamese.htm*

I read the site, and it referred to the south of vietnam, which everyone knows were occupied by the Cham, who can be considered Indians as you can say. The vietnamese took that territory later on. The north of vietnam at that time was kind of like a nation of farms located around the Red River Delta. If you never knew that part and think that's significant then it's kind of funny at the stuff you just learnt from a site.

*Could that be due to rebellious aristocrat in Vietnam wanted to take power because of greed? Shish, after more than 1000 years of occupation, or you sure that what you stated is correct, not by your bias or brainwashed opinion? You make me laugh! Guess what? After more than 1000 years of occupation by the Han, what do you think had happened to the "Giao Chi" people? We don't see any ones in Vietnam with feet and toes, as described in the textbook anymore do us?*

Actually there are a lot of people in the north with feet described in the textbook. But not exact, that is a reason why new conclusion conclude that modern vietnamese originate from the people of the Red River Delta. Who, through archealogical conclusions of bone structure, had an extremely similar bone structure. Also that the Red River Delta culture was around at the times of 21 000 BC, which is called the Son Vi culture of Phu To, of northern vietnam. This is very recent escavations, but from what i found startling is that that DNA test thing people keep on talking about said that some culture in northern china at 10 000 BC was the first. Maybe it was that because the Son Vi culture was found out about just so recently.

*For your information, then how do you explain why most Vietnamese’s have the same last name as the Chinese? For your information, there wasn't any "Nguyen" prior to the Nguyen dynasty. It was a made up surname to get away from the Chinese. Do you know why?*

Well that is FALSE information your giving us. The Nguyen last name existed BEFORE the royal family/dynasty! Have you ever heard of the Tay Son? Or the Trang vs. Nguyen civil war? It happened BEFORE the royal family occured. The Tay Son brothers were from a TOTALLY different villages then the more famous Nguyen dynasty but they were still Nguyens. They're were even different branches of Nguyens, meaning that there was a diversity of Nguyen's. The Tay Son concealed their last name to cover up for thier village, but everyone know their last name. So that is a false FYI you gave us there traveLLer. And MOST vietnamese DON'T have chinese last names, most can't even be translated into chinese, even if possible it isn't a chinese last name. For example Ly, Nguyen, Do, Mai, Phan, Trung etc... Some people have this WEAK perception that the names can be translated from one to another language because they're the same last name, WRONG. It may sound the same, and may be spelled the same when translated into the opposing language, but have you ever tried translating the meaning of the names? The chinese equivalent of a vietnamese last name doesn't mean the same thing. Why won't anyone consider the european Lee? It's a common chinese name, but also a common white persons last name, does that mean they originate from the same place? No, it's just an urge for superiority that they do that, connecting everything together. EVERY language is restricted, and a word can sound the same from one language to another, like the english Lee, and the Viet Ly, the chinese and corean Li/Lee. Similar with the vietnamese Tran and the chinese Chan, they through essence sound the same, but to the bottome line do they mean the same thing? Nope.

*That Annam is a country under the sovereignty of China, is still more clear by the fact, that, on an Annamese king coming to the throne, he has to ask for investiture at the hands of the Emperor, in the same way as in the Middle Ages monarchs of Catholic countries had to obtain this confirmation of power from the Pope. Moreover, although in his relations with his subjects and in treaties with western powers the King of Annam is designated [] Dai-hoang-de, or Supreme Emperor, the characters [] Kuo-tchang, or Chief of a Kingdom, are applied to him in China when soliciting investiture; and he is afterwards simply called [] Wang, meaning King or Prince. In addressing the Emperor, the King of Annam makes use of the form [] Piao, i.e. stateman presented to the Emperor; and in replying to him the form [][] Tche-chu, or letter sent by special command of the Emperor, is used."*

Just to tell you, Quang Trung (Hue Nguyen) was the guy that KICKED the chinese out of vietnam. He destroyed half of the chinese army in vietnam. He would have went to china to ask for help against the ever powerful Tay Son. He ALSO asked the FRENCH emperor for help, and they did comply. Now does that mean we were under Frances control at that time? No, later a conflict insued and the french conquered vietnam.

*In 1252, China being under MONGOL rule, Annam had to pay tribute every three years. Under the MING Dynasty the regulations for payment of tribute by Annam were altered, and those now in force are to be found in Mr. DEVERIA'S work Histoire des Relations de la Chine avec l'Annam-Vietnam, du XVI au. XIX siecle. (Paris, Ernest Leroux, 1880.)*

Vietnam destroyed THREE mongol armies. Each one being over half a million. The last one being lead by Kublai Khan's OWN son, with elite troops of also over a million. Guerilla warfare WASN'T used, but a direct offencive was used, they retreated because they couldn't take the onslaught, but they came back on a direct offencive against the mongols and won (it was said that the viets didn't have good shields and armor, but had good swords ideal for offence not defence). Vietnam didn't want ANOTHER encounter like that, so to stay on good terms with that nation they paid tribute.

*Annam has always been tributary to China, and, from the time of its becoming a self-governed state, has occasionally sent presents and tribute to the Son of Heaven. When-ever she has not done so, a war with China has been the inevitable result. China, on her side, has attached great importance to this tribute, and has fixed not only the dates on which it was to be paid, but also the nature of the presents to be made to her by Annam.*

A war is done between two countries, which signifies the opponents independence. No mention of civil war, which would mean an internal affair did it? No duh, if a country has had a history of warring with you, and destroying your army, wouldn't you be totally scared that they don't send a gift to show that your on good terms with them? The Byzantine empire paid tribute to the mongols, and yet they were never part of mongolia. Just an 'allie/friend' who later attacked the mongols.

Also you can think of vietnam and china at that time like canada and the uk today. Vietnam had TOTAL independence from china, as Canada had the same. But the vietnamese didn't even recognize the chinese emperor. From your source, it only mentioned Quang Trung. It's a known fact that the emperors before that disliked the chinese. The famous Nguyen Binh Khiem (poet/strategist), was vietnam's most famous scholar at that time. China heard of his success, and told 5+ of china's BEST scholars and teachers to go and challenge Nguyen Binh Khiem. Of course the chinese made the rules. Nguyen Binh Khiem NEVER lost a competition ever (it's not that the vietnamese population is all smart, this guy is smarter then every other vietnamese too at that time). He won the poetry contest against the chinese, the musical test (instruments), and bypassed everyone on a test that was considered one of the hardest of all state tests for accepting magistrates. At the end he was supposed to win, but to humor the chinese (they were more powerful then vietnam at that time) he gave china a chance by having an art contest. The person to draw the most dragons in 2 hours (1 incent stick) wins. The vietnamese emperor KNEW well that Nguyen Binh Khiem wasn't an artist, and wanted him to lose to show he's on their good side. But Nguyen Binh Khiem followed his village heart (he was a villager from a small village, of full vietnamese ethnic, VERY small village, no interaction with other ethnics). The BEST chinese artist drew three dragons, Nguyen Binh Khiem was said to have been sitting like he was dreaming, then stood up at the last minute, put his hand in ink and drew 10 straight lines. The officials said he lost, but he told them to stop and bring out a dragon for him, if they can show him that his drawing of a dragon wasn't like the real thing then he would have lost. Well he won. He was offered a set in china, but refused. He then retired and went back to his home village to teach, he was most notable for having notable students, each one being a high ranking official. He taught for free, which caught my heart, he's my hero.

The vietnamese language is said to be of a mixture between the Mon-Khmer and Sino-Tibetan classes of language. It was then decided to classify it under Mon-Khmer. BUT it is put into a WHOLE SEPARATE BRANCH OF IT'S OWN due to it's uniqueness. Even though there were HUGE influence between chinese, khmer and thai, the language itself is still a mystery.

Your sites also seem to be VERY weak. You seem to only rely to one site for one idea, you need atleast 2-3 for it to be believable. Your sites ARE EDITORIALS from the views of a person, with little historical facts, either then little excerpts pulled out. Which if told the entire strory is different. Like that Quang Trung and his going to China, he kind of destroyed china's army later, and publically yelled at the chinese ethnic. He threatened china for Guangdong and Guangxi back (historical vietnam BEFORE the chinese HAN came in). It was to be handed to the vietnamese when he marries a chinese princess, but he died (poisin/sickness, coincidence?). Also that he needed support to take control from the other ruler of vietnam, who through your sources should have had support form the ruler also, why would he pull back what he said and lie? Quang Trung (Hue Nguyen) WAS recorded to have bowed to the french monarch for help and had his support to gain vietnam to his power, this is also in your case with china. BUT it wasn't under france rule at that time, AFTER that it was.

Your annalogy with the commonwealth and the UK was also weak. the commonwealth is written to be equals to the UK. The commonwealth is FULLY independent from the UK, it's leaders are choosen by the people, and if any of the nations have a war, no one has to help. The queen is a figure head (means no real power), which if she doesn't approve of a prime minister can then be rejected, and the PM, can still rule the country even if he/she isn't approved by the british monarch. Like i said, no real power.

I WISH you can read vietnamese. Then you can see more history, what i have stated is what i find supported by all three sources of chinese, vietnamese, and french books. All the stuff only supported by one source i left out because of obvious biased potential and inaccuracy, which in your case can very welly be, due to only having one reference each idea.
General Viet Wednesday, June 26, 2002 at 00:21:27 (PDT)

I really hate those shows on TV or the radio that constantly talk of apocalypse, armageddon and the end of the world.

What I hate most is when they say the world is near ending because one sign of it being that China's economy is rising!!!

WTF is that all about?

This is very blatantly racist and has nothing to do with religion.

Instead ending the world, I think they should re-phrase it to: "end of the western or white world."
people are still racist Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 23:54:17 (PDT)

what with this japanese korea japanese korea japanese korea thinggie..r u people r enemy or what....and what with this kanji thing..i dont even know whats kanji means....maybe cause i'm more to malay than chinese...well one thing i want to say is that japanese, korean, chinese have very different unique culture and race....japanese r japanese, korean r korean, and chinese r chinese...japanese will always believe only with them self, korean will always want people to believe they r from somewhere and chinese will always be everywhere.
mixed malay&chinese guy Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 21:03:34 (PDT)

Any of you heard of that eyebrow test for being more or less Han? It's garbage. Ok it's supposed to be something like bushy straight eyebrows are han. WRONG.
Ok, i have a friend, he's viet. He has two brothers. They all look like their fathers except for their eyebrows. They're mother has curved and also their father. My friend (the first born) looks EXACTLY like his dad EXCEPT that his eyebrows are straight and bushy! His other two brothers have curved. So does this mean that my friend is more Han then his brothers? NO! Not at all, any less or any more they have the same blood. Being viet they have an even less of a chance of being Han. Having all those DNA tests showing vietnamese to have only like what 10%? So it's TOTALLY false.

So if anyone ever tells you this just tell them what i told you. I KNOW this family. The tests are TOTALLY false. Or that line on the forearm thing. I checked, and my friend who's irish has that line. So now he's chinese? NO. Also a false test.

Just telling you guys so that you guys don't fall for crap like that.
Garbage Testing Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 18:53:42 (PDT)

To, the traveLLer;

Just to say that site is WAY OFF, why would someone ask to become king when he was going to destroy the chinese army? Just a bit of insight, that DOES NOT make sense at all. It's like walking up to someone then saying, "can i become king now, i just destroyed your army in my homeland, i just came here because i know i'll get assassinated for treason against the ruling chinese emperor." C'MON, why the heck would anyone risk getting killed like that after they destroyed the guys army? No sense.
Yup Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 18:29:35 (PDT)

To, the traveLLer;

Quang Trung (1752-1792) was born in Kien Thanh hamlet, Binh Thanh village, Binh Khe district (Binh Dinh province). In 1788, the Qing court decided to send an expeditionary corps to conquer the divided country. Nguyen Hue proclaimed himself Emperor Quang Trung in Phu Xuan and overran the Chinese troops in a whirlwind campaign. He pacified the Northern part of the country from the Chinese border to the Hai Van pass in the Center and devoted his energies to national rehabilitation, administrative reorganization and economic development. Significantly, Quang Trung replaced the Chinese Han with the popular Nôm as the official language. He died not long after 1792.
Ðng commemorating Quang Trung Victory of Ngoc Hoi Battle, 1789: front - - back
I got that off a historical book. The two sites you gave were FLAWED. They were VAGUE, or written for a biased purpose. Like that one page off that site was just to show that china controlled vietnam even after it's independence. Yeah i guess Quang Trung asked permission to destroy the chinese army right? And afterwards asked to become king? No, he just did it, they couldn't have stopped him. Nguyen Hue, WASN'T recorded to have went to the chinese capital EVER. That site is CRITICALLY FLAWED. C'mon, it says that he went to china to bow to the chinese emperor to become emperor. What? Right after or before he destroyes the chinese army? I guess he asked permission to destroy the chinese army right. C'mon.

"http://art-hanoi.com/toda/04.html" That's the site.

It says, "When in 1790 the Tay-son rebel [][] NGUYEN-HUE, already invested as king of Annam by [] K'IEN-LUNG, came to China to salute the Emperor on the occasion of the 55th anniversary of his reign, he took part in the ceremonies of the palace in company with the Tartar Princes of the first and second rank, performing with them the various court rites, such as kneeling three times and bowing nine times before His Imperial Majesty. "

C'mon, WTF, how you interpret it is how i replied to your post. But the site itself that you've provided DOES not support you. He bowed to the emperor BEFORE he was emperor of china, the ONLY emperor EVER recorded to have bowed AT ALL. The royal heir isn't supposed to bow. He bowed because he WASN'T king, he was a COMMONER at that time. You found a site that DOESN'T support what you said. But everything above this i replied in the sense that is IF how you interpret what the site said is true. Just a little logic bashing there.
Yup Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 18:26:20 (PDT)

Is it possible that the Japanese are very jealous of the Koreans' performance in the World Cup?
Kim Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 16:37:12 (PDT)

To, Try visiting Little Saigon in L.A.;

I doubt that, well if you see a vietnamese person speaking chinese then they are chinese. But if they don't speak chinese then they're full a fledged vietnamese. Chinese people in vietnam are very proud to be chinese, they recognize themselves as chinese ethnic with allegence to the vietnamese crown/blood. They are proud to be of chinese blood, but they are proud to be born in vietnam. Trust me, i know A LOT of chinese-vietnamese. If you ask one of them were they vietnamese, and they are part chinese or are full chinese but is born in vietnam they would call themselves, people of vietnam with chinese background. Not unless they're chinese side was forced into them by a rape, then they wouldn't admit it through shame. But either then that, if a person says they're viet then they're also ethnically viet. Remember it's interesting to find out if they're from the north or not. I don't know i always play a game with my dad, we try to guess other people's ethnicity. We even do it for white people (pretty hard for me). Here's my system.

Look for these signs:

1. They have light skin, lighter then most of asia, compared to southern china they're even lighter, but a bit more color then northern chinese (if what chinese people tell me are true).

2. They hate chinese people. Well not hate, but kind of dislike at first site, you have to know them for a while before they'll accept you as a good person. But even then the unwritten rule of ONLY marrying viets still apply and marrying a chinese is still considered bad luck and unfortunate, so of coarse forbidden according to some weird rule spread orally through the ages since the Trung Sisters time (i think they spread it, but it's still going strong even after 2000 years of existance). It's amazing what you see when you go to the north of vietnam, they're so anti chinese, one northerner told me that it was amazing that Ho Chi Minh trusted the chinese when he was so smart. That his only mistake was trusting the chinese for aid as they just backstabbed the viets again even after they became communist in 1979.

3. The funny toe thing that are written in books apply to them. I've been to Hanoi (northern) and Nha Trang (central) of vietnam. The feet thing is DEFINITELY true, it runs as a MAJORITY. I'm from the south and my feet is normal, with the first toe being the longest, the northerners find it WEIRD to have it that way, for them normal is having the second toe longer.

4. They ARGUE A LOT, big mouthed as you can say. Weird feet and big mouthed...hehehe, just a joke, but it's true though, NEVER get into an argument with a northerner, they speak so fast you can't even remember all the points they bring up.

5. They're a bit taller than the usual vietnamese you see today in america.
If all those 5 signs are there then they are northern or central. But it's hard to spot those things in america or even france. VERY hard... Why? Well most of the refugees who LEFT vietnam when the south lost well were the south, and were chinese. That can explain why so many american vietnamese are dark skinned, becuase they're from the south, where the sun is always in play, OR their is cham/khmer influence. The northerners are close to being free of cham/khmer influence, or is absolutely free of it.
Viet Scene Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 16:17:27 (PDT)

Traveller,

“For your information, then how do you explain why most Vietnamese’s have the same last name as the Chinese? For your information, there wasn't any "Nguyen" prior to the Nguyen dynasty. It was a made up surname to get away from the Chinese. Do you know why?”

I would answer you this question regarding Nguyen. My last name is Nguyen any way.

Vietnamese history recorded, in the first half of 18th century, Kingdom of Vietnam was in civil war between North and South, in which Gianh River in today central Vietnam was the boder. The latter Le Dynasty in Hanoi, northern Vietnam was overpowered by Trinh lord (Trinh Kiem) and the south was ruled by Nguyen lord ( Nguyen Anh, later became King Gia Long). The civil war caused lots of devastation to the people of Vietnam. The rebel of Tay Son with three brothers Nguyen Nhac, Nguyen Hue (Later became Quang Trung Emperor) and Nguyen Lu. These three brothers have no relatives to Nguyen Anh that they fought against. (Confused huh?). First to fight Nguyen Anh in the south and later fought the Trinh Nguyen Anh was forced down to the Gulf of Thailan and escaped to island of Phu Quoc, south most of today Vietnam. Vietnamese king Le Chieu Thong in Hanoi asked Chinese Qing for help when he heard the Quang Trung troops about to march into northern Vietnam from the South. Chinese Qing sent 100,000 troops to Hanoi area with the accuse of protecting An Nam King Le. But after many battles in Hanoi area during the Chinese New Year in 1789, the Chinese troops were defeated so gone with the Trinh lord and Le Dynasty in northern Vietnam.

The complication of the situation is Nguyen Anh forces were badly defeated, he asked Kingdom of Siem (Thailand) for help. Kingdom of Siem sent 20,000 naval forces down to Mekong river to battle with Nguyen Hue troops. Believe it or not, Thai troops were defeated and escaped back to the Kingdom. Later on, Nguyen Anh sent his son prince Canh to France for help. One Chinese man named Mac Cuu (There is a big temple of Mac Cuu in Ha Tien, south most of today Vietnam). He was pro Nguyen Anh and jointed Nguyen Anh troops to fight against Nguyen Hue. Later when Nguyen Anh took power in kingdom of Vietnam and established the first Nguyen Dynasty (1802) after Quang Trung Emperor passed away, Mac Cuu was promoted to General, commander in chief, in charge in southern Vietnam to battle the Kingdom of Khmer (Surprise you huh?).

To establish the relationship between the King and his people and to unite the people after long civil wars, Nguyen Anh (King Gia Long) encouraged the people to pay loyalty to him by changing their surnames to Nguyen. And many people did.

King Gia Long was criticized as much as King Le Chieu Thong by many Vietnamese scholars for asking foreign help (Chinese, French, Xiem). But King Gia Long has full credit for reuniting the whole country after all.

I have a change to talk to a Chinese woman from mainland China. She explained to me (I thought the other way around) that the reason why Vietnamese have so many surnames Nguyens is to change their identities from Chinese surnames! . That I don’t understand. Of course, I don’t want to argue with a nice looking Chinese lady either.

Remember that Nguyen Dynasty continued to use Chinese language as its official written language of Vietnam. Successors of King Gia Long are the ones who fought against the French. How could it be anti Chinese?

“Nguyen is a make up surname to get away from the Chinese”. That’s full of bull sh*t. The Vietnamese don’t need to make up anything. That is you who get brain washed by some anti Vietnamese sentiments. My advice to you is taking more cooling mode Chinese medicine and this drug description is also available in Little Saigon in Santa Ana, LA.

An Nam Guy Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 13:31:02 (PDT)

To, we all came from the same fathers;

Can you provide me the link to this 'dna test'? I want to analize it for myself, as i can see many have different views on what it says.
General Viet Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 12:58:27 (PDT)

To, Interesting;

Those tests were made by kids? Interesting, infact amazing that they had such a great oppurtunity. Well the background of the chinese kids and the vietnamese kids should be explained for the tests to be considered acceptable. From a far off prospect, the relations in blood between southern chinese (where most chinese in america are from) have blood relations with all vietnamese because of the common ancestor the Yueh. What i am interested right now, is if the modern vietnamese related to the Han genes from the north. Most tests shown to me so far has not shown direct and clear evidence of that. In most university tests (like just for the bald effect in Canada, it took 5 years to do the testing and about 10000 test subjects) the number of test subjects should be MORE, especially for china and corea, with one country doubling canada's population and the other having ten times. The test numbers should be more then 400, which NONE of the genetics tests bypassed. I don't trust these tests, unless it has a more broad background of asians. They seem to just focus on korean and chinese and japanese relations. They seem to be related for sure, but what i'm intereted in is the tests with the vietnamese and indonesians, and combodians. They historically shouldn't be very close to the Han, for example, even vietnam was under chinese rule, but under this rule, most of the magistrates controlling the region and army who he controlled were from the south, who were historically the viets, or if not has a strong blood relation already. So i don't care if the chinese came in or not, i just what to see the tests to see the relations with the north. And see the division in regions of the countries. Like vietnam has three main sections, each region has people with their own characteristics. The north is anti-chinese, and are seen to still have the weird feet thing as a majority thing, the central show's the same setiment and bone structure. The south is very sinicized, and accepts chinese very well. People from different regions will show different results. The south will probably be more related, the north not very much. The north has A LOT of villages FILLED with 100% chinese blood people because they don't get along with the vietnamese, so no mixing has happened. They are also isolated in their villages. Also bad luck, superstition saying that interaction with chinese is bad luck, when Ho Chi Minh asked for chinese help the people were afraid it might go wrong. Did it? Yes, in 1979 a war came in with the communist vietnamese against the communist chinese. C'mon, help them one moment, kill them the other. I don't care how much they help to fight the french, they just did it so that they can get the land and not the french. In the south the chinese and vietnamese live side by side in the same villages most of the time, and in the same communities most of the time.

In cambodia, i don't know. But i guess it should be separated by region.

If the tests cannot be specific, then i don't see it's validity. Like if they bring 12 vietnamese from vietnam's chinatown, how the heck are we supposed to know it's not fixed like that? C'mon, those vietnamese have chinese blood, and everyone knows it. What i want is an actual separation by region and city. 12 different cities, 3 different regions. Same with every other nation. This will produce a more valid test. But i don't think they do that do they.
Australian born Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 11:10:13 (PDT)

"I had to fly through a third country (China) in order to visit Iran. They don't give visas to visitors flying from the USA because of the problems going on. But, Iran is a very beautiful and scenic country. It is worth it to check it out for cultural and women reasons, rather than for political reasons."

You gotta watch your attitude boy and give the Iranian men some face. How'd you like it if white American go to China only for the reason of "checking out" the women.

Hoklo Taiwanese Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 01:45:47 (PDT)

Advice to "the traveLLer" please try to use LESS biased sites. Look at half the sites you gave. One of them mentioned the defeat of the Trung Sisters, but did they mentioned what happened before she lost?

She won, she regained freedom for vietnam for five years, vietnam prospered for those five years. They forgot to mention china's lose to them. Isn't that considered biased information to make china look more powerful?

Not to mention the vietnamese beat the mongols/chinese under Kublai Khan's rule THREE times while being outnumbered each time. Isn't that once again covering up vietnamese victories over china? Not to mention not mentioning the other 9 rebellions within the thousand years of chinese rule.

What about that hanoi one? It was there SOULLY to prove that vietnam was under china's rule. C'mon, we beat them in BIG battles, they can't destroy our army, we fought them head on against the mongols (we retreated because we didn't have shields, so we came back the next day on a full offencive on the captured city and regained it for the vietnamese, this happened two times, the last one i think was guerilla). We were never under chinese rule after Ngo Quynh, we resisted that countless times, but tribute was paid. We never were part of chinese sovereignty after Ngo Quynh, we only paid tribute (which many other nations did, including russia at that time to the mongols and even the pope, were they under mongol rule? No, they had FULL control over foreign and internal affairs, the mongols wouldn't have dared to go into vietnam again, but vietnam didn't want them to in fear of an even larger attack. But vietnam also had FULL control over it's own affairs, just that every year or so they had to give gifts to acknowledge that they are at good terms with the chinese/mongols).

Paying tribute is so that you can be on good terms with another nation, not that you are under it's control. Only when the rulers role is determined by the other nation is it under it's control, or both foreign and internal affairs are under it's control. For example, Rome and it's other cities. The other cities paid tribute to rome, but it's situation is VERY different from vietnam and chinas. When rome said a leader change is due, it happens, and trade is controlled by Rome, also a minimum tribute was set. When a war happens they have to help and send an army to help. Vietnam just sent tribute, either then that it had full control over it's economy and army. China had COUNTLESS wars over the thousand years it didn't control vietnam, but when they told us to help did we? No, also when a new leader comes to throne is it of their planning? No, they come in through rebellions against the current leader (and if your site is right) the chinese HAD to approve him, even if the emperor doesn't like them. Adding in that treason was made AGAINST CHINA'S EMPEROR, if it is true that the emperor approves the leader, then the previous leader was approved and was considered ideal. But then why would he go against his own words to approve a rebel? One that challenged his decision? Because he had no choice, approved or not, he would still be the leader. And what about Quang Trung? He went to Peking and did pay respect to the emperor, but did that site said why? NO, it was because Quang Trung (Nguyen Hue i think) threatened to take Guangdong and Guangxi by force, the emperor at that time didn't want a war and just gave it to them. But before the transfer the emperor and Quang Trung arrange a marriage between a chinese princess and Quang Trung himself to keep on good terms. But Quang Trung died soon after, making the transfer useless. Quang Trung at that time was considered one of the WORLDS most powerful men, it was said that he was ready for war, he had control of the eunichs (emperors main half man) and a hand full of the chinese generals were at his bribe, that was the news the emperor heard and was ready to give up that land, but did those sites add that in? Wasn't he the ONLY emperor recorded in that site? And the first time he went to china was to demand land, not to ask for approval of his kingship. That site reeks lies. He took over vietnam against china's appointed/approved ruler, and then we went on his campaigns, he was a great general and was feared. He was even ready to marry a princess to pass some land on to vietnam. He challenged china's borders, and also china's decision on the ruler. He commited treason, but if your site is right, did they approve his rule? Yes, when they should have killed him for treason. But did they have a choice? No.

It's like Canada, Australia, and South Africa. They were part of Britain. They have to pay taxes to the Queen and her representatives when she's absent. But is Canada and Australia FULLY independent from the Uk? Yes, neither the internal or external affairs were controlled by the UK.

Even the queen is the OFFICIAL head of state. But does she hold any REAL power over Canada? No, much the same as the emperor of china was to vietnam, just a figure head (that is IF your site is real, which probably isn't). Does the queen choose the Prime Minister? In paper she does, but through life, the Prime Minister is elected, then the Queen just approves him, no matter what she can't defy her duty, even if she doesn't like the PM, she has to approve him. What about the GC ( Governor General)? She is the head of state in Canada, she is also officially to approve the PM. But in reality, she just approves the PM, and even if she doesn't the PM is still the PM, she's just a figure head for ceremony no REAL power, the PM can choose the GC.

China and vietnam's positions at that time was kind of like Canada's and the UK today. China's ruler was just a figure head for vietnam, who doesn't really matter for our sovereignty or not.

Yup Monday, June 24, 2002 at 23:44:50 (PDT)

To, the traveLLer;

"Could that be due to rebellious aristocrat in Vietnam wanted to take power because of greed?"

AND

"http://art-hanoi.com/toda/04.html"

THAT is a biased opinion. Why did china attack vietnam and took away it's sovereignty? Is it greed?

Plus, the Nguyen Kings would have become king anyways even if the chinese didn't approve of it. At that time the Nguyen's had the french's help (after the first emperor died, his son Minh Mang persecuted french missionaries and got vietnam into the war).

Your making it seem that outside decisions were made that made vietnam. I don't think Ngo Quynh went into Peking to get the emperors approval to destroy half the chinese army based at vietnam. I don't think any of the warring factions of families went to the emperor to ask if it's ok to rebell against the current ruler (which if what that site says is true, the current leader at that time should have had approval. Did they? Well they should have according to that site, then why did the emperor approve the ruling of a rebellion?). Or to mention ALL of Vietnam's emperors became king through a war against the current leader because of a power struggle, why would the chinese emperor betray the emperors decision on a ruler? Wouldn't the rebels have been killed for defying the emperors decisions? Not to mention there was no war with china at many of those times, if it is true that china approved the rebellions (which were mostly done by peasants after peasants, who had no connection with china) then what would have been the cause? Not sending tribute? NO, there was no war remember so that means there were tributes.

That ENTIRE site is flawed.

Viet Boy Monday, June 24, 2002 at 23:15:24 (PDT)

"When the Guangdong Chinese and the Japanese were establishing communities in the Western hemisphere in the late 1800's and early 1900's, the Taiwanese and Korean folks were still under the rule of Japanese oppression."

Sure. But keep in mind that these early oriental settlers were being discriminated and oppressed pretty badly by the Western nations.

"Why the hell do you bring up Hispanics in a discussion about Asians and Westernization?"

To show you that westernization hardly shows the Cantonese-speaking Chinese are very similar to the Japanese.

"Hispanics were under the oppression of Spain. Spain was NEVER an economy based country like England or the Netherlands. In a sense, Westernization is a equivalent to Capitalism..now how many Latin American places have the status of Tokyo or Hong Kong?"

That's because East Asians are harder working and like to save rather than spend. If it had been Taiwan or Korea instead of HK, she could've attained the same status, whatever that is. What, you don't think so? Because Taiwanese and Koerans are no Cantonese???

"We and the Japanese tasted modernization 1st...! "

Well, not exactly. Japanese did taste it much earlier than HK. So much earlier that Japan could become industrialized and create an army to invade China and HK. Also, Taiwan had a good start in modernization (westernization?) when the more westernized Japanese colonized Taiwan.

"Many of us brought western trends from our overseas communities back to our homelands. Did you Taiwanese folks do the same thing before WW II. I don't think so, you folks were still under the rule of imperial Japan."

What western trends? Eating with knives and forks? What else? These superficialities certainly don't make the Cantonese more similar to the Japanese.

Tons of old Taiwanese homes are in Japanese style with tatami and stuff. Spoken Taiwanese words are filled with lots of Japanese words. So the Taiwanese never needed "western trend" to be "similar" to the Japanese. They got authentic Japanese trend delivered to the door! If these superficial trends is what makes one group of people similar to another, then it's clearly the Taiwanese that should be more similar to the Japanese. Yet to this day, I have not heard of one Taiwanese claiming that the Taiwanese are very similar to the Japanese! HK youths are just a bunch of Japanophiles, that's all. Say "I'm Chinese, not Japanese!" Say it 50x every day.

"Yeah? Hoklos and Hakkas from other places are less isolated than the ones in Taiwan. Your statement is contradicting, island folks tend to be more isolated!"

Huh? How is it contradicting? Japan is one big island. It's the first nation to break isolation. Mainland China, a huge continent, on the other hand, has been pretty late in opening up.

"Relations between the Southern and Northern Chinese is better than the one between the Cantonese and Taiwanese. In fact, Taiwanese are the ones who stress their elitism and exclusiveness...more so than the other groups. They have this attitude like "oh, we're better than those lowly rude Cantonese/Mainland scum, no need to be friends or to associate with them". Correct me if I'm wrong? it is you the Taiwanese folks who foster most of these animosities."

I don't deny the existence of some snobby Taiwanese. My best friend is from HK although he's not fresh off the plane. "Scum" is a pretty harsh word. No Taiwanese sees Cantonese as scums. So what if some say Cantonese are loud and rude. All Taiwanese know that's the way they talk. No big deal. Take it easy. Taiwanese are Chinese people so what do you expect from them.

HK folks should also watch their attitude towards their Mainland neighbors. Still, my question is, how are the Cantonese-speaking Chinese very similar to the Japanese?

Hoklo Taiwanese Monday, June 24, 2002 at 22:33:31 (PDT)

FOOLISH,

The Wu, Yueh and Han were not really all that different from each other culturally nor racially. They are all from the same Sinitic branch and roots.

Back then, there was no such thing as Cantonese. And, it is false to say the Cantonese are pure descendants of Yueh. Just like it is false to say people of Fujian, Zhejiang and parts of Jiangsu don't have this Yueh-Wu ancestry.
Chinese are one today Monday, June 24, 2002 at 22:29:51 (PDT)

Traveller:

The Giao Chi feet still exist, if not widely in VN today. The truth is unlike ancient Viets, Modern vietnamese wear shoes which enable the changing in feet shape. I don't know if it sounds convincing. But
if you
go to rural areas, you could still
see "Giao Chi feet" in elderly people. the funny thing is a Giao Chi feet couldn't be put into a Nike shoe.LOL
In ancient times, Vietnamese aristocrats and middle class
don't have feet & toes like that cos they wear shoes. the Giao Chi feet is prevalent in Vietnamese peasants.

However, almost none of vietnamese children have Giao Chi feet although their grand parents have it. Hey my grandma has "Giao Chi" toes and she always has a hard time wearing shoes.lol

another fact is, a little bit like foot-binding, but far from being as cruel , Vietnamese do some massage for their baby's feet to turn feet in normal shape chinese one. actualy vietnamese don't like their typical feet.

I heard there are 2 and more types of Giao Chi feet, not just the type w/ big toe spread apart.
a typical Vietnamese trait Monday, June 24, 2002 at 20:53:51 (PDT)

The vietnamese language was previously classified as Sino-Tibetan language. Now there are 2 hypothesis:
1. Vietnamese is closely related to Han language.
2. Vietnamese is in the same group w/ Mon-Khmer.
3. Vietnamese is an language independant of mon as well as Han.

The language spoken by ethnic minorities is different from that used by Jing (or Kinh)people.
k Monday, June 24, 2002 at 19:25:28 (PDT)

The traveller:

What brought you to a foolish conclusion the aristocrats in VN are chinese? if it was the truth, why have those aristovrats been bent on fighting back their chinese brothers evrytime chinese conquer Vietnam? If they are chinese they must have intended on merging vietnam into China. that's jsut baloney. You rig up a story w/o any vaid evidence.
Plain baloney Monday, June 24, 2002 at 19:16:59 (PDT)

rare stuff:

So that means Cambodian and Mongol have a close connection or something? sorry my head is still very blurred.
k Monday, June 24, 2002 at 19:12:32 (PDT)

From what I've seen, Cambodian look very different from chinese, as well as viet, thai...
Hm... Monday, June 24, 2002 at 18:41:32 (PDT)

Asian races:

My point is the influence of caucasoid gene in chinese is obvious, but that is not to say caucasoid gene is overwhelming or popular. As said before, only about 10 % (or below) is caucasoid. All in all, there is little influence from Caucasoid. IF not, why do chinese gene is so identical to Koreans? fyi, ancient chinese are much more ethnocentric than modern chinese, hence their calling other nations barbaric.

btw, i know i'm sounding foolish, but some people always make it seem like chinese desire caucasian spuoses. intermixing is something ineluctable btw 2 neighboring countries, not because chinese find Russian women to be good looking. in chinese annals, they depict russian as being hairy, monkey-like. (i'm sorry, that's waht is written).

k Monday, June 24, 2002 at 18:29:51 (PDT)

To "United Asia",

do you want to interbreed with strong Asian races??-First dig the real past of the Asian warrior races!!:
the Ugrians went to Ugoria,mixed with peaceful palaeo-Asians and gave up scalp-hunting;the Turks went to Turkestan,mixed with peaceful Persians and became sedementary,i.e. under control;the Tungus went to NE-Asia,mixed with peaceful palaeo-Asians and gave up scalp-hunting;the Tibetans went to Tibet,mixed with palaeo-Asians and beacame peaceful farmers;the Chinese and Dais suffered from the effeminate part of their stock from the beginning.What happens to manly people nowadays?-The Mongols,thanks to whom we now know about the great spirits of Genghis Khan and Begste,suffer from anti-male lesbians who are now 70% of all judges in Mongolia.Manly males seemed to be systematically excluded from education in Mongolia! -So the first you can do is to find a women who's neither effeminate nor anti-male (hard enough!).Then abstain from religious activities like the worship of Kwan-Yin,Buddha,Krishna and all others that spend "mercy". Instead you can worship the spirits of real men,like Genghis Khan.(That voodoo is so lively and wide-spread has only one reason: the voodooists worship real men who died in struggle,like Shango and Legba.)
rare stuff Monday, June 24, 2002 at 16:49:33 (PDT)

To, the traveLLer;

Your links are EXTREMELY VAGUE, it stops after vietnam beats the chinese in a battle. I read it pretty quick, but from what i've gotten, i don't see any links on how the vietnamese beat the mongols in three battles (written in the mongol and chinese annals and also the vietnamese), so for sure there is no deviating there. Where's Ngo Quyenh? And how he destroyed the chinese garrison? C'mon, what a biased link. It leaves out how the vietnamese people made a superstition on marrying chinese people, believing it's bad luck (applys to the north only). You can see it when you GO TO VIETNAM, when you do you'll see like ten FULL ethnic chinese villages. Why the heck didn't they mix well if they were so damn accepted? How did the vietnamese language exist after one thousand years of rule? While half of the time it was outlawed? It was fully restricted during Ming Rule, when boys were castrated, women were raped, and men were murdered on their rice fields for chinese military practice. I am not vietnamese, but i've been to vietnam. I can see that in the south the chinese population is WELLY accepted, but in the north. Whew, it's a WHOLE different story. A superstition started when the Trung Sisters died, said that if you marry a chinese, bad luck and death will rain upon your families parade or vietnamese life. If you go to the northern and central ends of vietnam you'll see that the feet thing is STILL in effect, that it is still around. Not like how you say that it does not exist. It is relatively close to rare in the southern end of vietnam.

I'm a traveller, that's what i call myself. I spent a few weeks in vietnam with a friend who was visiting his grandparetns, we then went to china and thailand...

You refer to chinese sources that are even off from chinese annals. I spent a few years in china and read some of the annals involving vietnam to prepare for my way to vietnam (to avoid insulting the people), and most of it doesn't include what you say.
Fresh Traveller Monday, June 24, 2002 at 16:06:40 (PDT)

To, the traveLLer;

You ONLY have one site? You know how biased it can be. Why won't you try to use more then ONE site?

To, Han and Yueh are the same way back;

You know that there were about 100 tribes right? Zhuang, Viet, whoever could just be a descendent of one of these tribes. Plus it is welly documented that the people of Fukien/Chekien (Yueh) moved south to Guangdong, then again to northern vietnam after their leader Chao To (chinese aristocrat, who eliminated ALL chinese loyalties) lost the war against the chinese. The Yueh then were said to have moved south once again to northern vietnam.

To, Chinese brother of Coreans and all other Asians;

Can you give me a link to the site of the, " Haplotype 7 Y Chromosome paternal DNA" test please. I don't find it likely to be a revelent test. For a test to be accurate it MUST consist of a relatively HUGE test population. And that is a test that needs a strong research body to do, like the gov't or a university. I believe (i think someone said this) that THESE tests were done by individuals. With like what? 10 subjects of each ethnic? What kind of a percentage is this? 0.0000000001 of the population of china? or of corea? or japan? How did 90% of 0.000000001 percent of china says that ALL of china has 90% of this gene? WTF, me think this is a bit off, i don't mind it if you refer to it as accurate, but referring it to that 90% of ALL chinese have this gene. C'mon word it better like 90% of the test subjects or something.
Hafti Monday, June 24, 2002 at 15:35:39 (PDT)

"BTW: Many Vietnamese claimed that 30-40% Vietnamese language is from the French language, please provide me the source. I can understand you are being a patriot, but common, there're more than the book."

To be quite frank, i never heard that one before! Did you make that up? I'm pretty sure it's like 2-5 % of the language because, well we only took basic words to use for foreign objects we had no words for at that time.

"And if the Chinese took control in Vietnam, would they put some aristocrats or the local people(whom they no idea that they might rebel against them any days) to rule the newly empire. You are drunk if you think the other way. Based on my oservation, the aristocrats in Vietnam were the Chinese themselves; whereas, the commoners are many ethnics that lived in that region with diverse culture."

In a way your are right, but in another you are wrong. People do you notice this guy did not right down the dates for when they put up a 'chinese' aristocrat? Ok for one, i am pretty sure, through logic, that from 200 BC-1000 AD the landlord would be chinese. But after that around 1000 AD to the french rule (excluding the brief 20+ year rule of the Ming dynasty) the ruler was vietnamese. Ngo Quynh, Nguyen Anh, and the other rulers after established their rule from gaining support from their own villages or fought against the french or chinese.

"And tell me, what is the real "Vietnamese" language, as you described in your post?"

The vietnamese language would be the official language wouldn't it? Which should be of the Kinh.

"Man, you are some character... As for Vietnam or "Annam" back then, it was still uncultivated and a wild land with many Indian tribes. Please click on: http://www.uglychinese.org/vietnamese.htm"

That's a joke. When they referred to these "indians" they were talking about the champa people! The modern vietnamese are also believed to be descendents to the Dong Son, not the Champa. The Dong Song lived in the north, not the south, as the champa are.

"Are these people either been?
a) Wiped out.
b) Intermarried with the "Han", but notice if that is the case than the Han's gene is the dominant one, since there are no ones today in Vietnam with straight toes and gaps in between.
c) Migrated to another place(s), if then where?"

There ARE a lot of people with more spaced out feet (JUST A BIT), i don't think the textbook meant to the extreme. Also the second toe longer then the first. This IS more common in the north and central areas of vietnam though. EVERYONE i know who's viet, or full viet with no chinese influence known to them in their lineage book, has this feet. I know this girl who's a quarter chinese, and you know what? She doesn't have the feet, it must be recessive in a way. I am also living proof. Go to a beach, i'm pretty sure A LOT of viets have it, it must not be only limited to me, my family and northern vietnam. Southerners don't have it as much. Are you a southerner?

"For your information, then how do you explain why most Vietnamese’s have the same last name as the Chinese? For your information, there wasn't any "Nguyen" prior to the Nguyen dynasty. It was a made up surname to get away from the Chinese. Do you know why?"

For YOUR information YES THERE WAS a nguyen family before the dynasty. You ever heard of the Nguyen and Trang family war? That happened BEFORE the Nguyen dynasty existed. Hope you know that BEFORE you spread lies/rumors like that too far.

"That Annam is a country under the sovereignty of China, is still more clear by the fact, that, on an Annamese king coming to the throne,"

Yeah, that was before Ngo Quyenh. How do you explain the battle that gave us our sovereignty? Can you explain sovereignty PLEASE. It is freedom of control from other nations, by Ngo Quyenh's time vietnam had full control over domestic and foreign affairs. Tribute was paid but so what? Tribute was paid so that another war wouldn't come forth. When the mongols come into rule, did you read about the times we fought against the mongols? We won all three confrontations, each battle being outnumbered. The first battle the mongols had 200 thousand, second one half a million, and the last one with Kublai Khan's son coming to control an elite troop of half a million to incorporate us. Did we lose? No we destroyed ALL three armies, said to have 1.5 million casualties on the mongol side. We just didn't want another battle like that to happen again.

I am vietnamese, are you? You have so many weird history facts i've never heard before. Weird infact. Especially that Nguyen family didn't exist before the Nguyen Dynasty, but as a FACT there WAS Nguyen before the dynasty. This family was involved in a war called the Nguyen and Trang War. And you know what? A small villager, a village NOT close to a town, not even from the same town, there WERE Nguyens who existed. Ever heard of the Tay Son brothers? Their true last names were Nguyen.

Here, seeing that you CAN'T read vietnamese, and refer to chinese resources, i give you this.

www.viettouch.com
www.vietnamtourism.com
www.thingsasian.com/goto_article/article.779.html
www.nhandan.org.vn/english/20020422/bai-cul8.html

General Viet Monday, June 24, 2002 at 15:24:31 (PDT)

Asian Races,

Iranians,Slavs and most of our Asian neighbors in the Western direction have usually no drop of Mongolid blood.In the past they looked more "Mongolid" in a superficial sense.Later some of the Westerners mutated and developed big noses,extremely light pigmentation etc. In ancient times they tended to "clean" their blood from foreign racial influences,i.e. in Central Europe IE-speakers killed people with red hair and people who were more hirsute than Indo-Europeans.Among the Tibetans they discriminated against blond people.
rare stuff Monday, June 24, 2002 at 15:23:52 (PDT)

Chinese brother of Coreans and all other Asians,

Very melodramic.

According to you, the Koreans are the offsprings of Chinese fathers, either volunteerly or by force.

Dream on.

This presupposes that Koreans and Chinese weren't very much alike at all before all this raping and voluntary love-making took place.

I don't think so. Obvously, E. Asians share a common origin, but branched off at some point. The overwhelming similarities between the two are more likely found "pre-branching off", rather than in more recent historical times.

All the genetic studies I've seen indicate that Koreans have more in common with other tungusic groups than to the Chinese (sinitic) groups. This is not surprising since they have more cultural affinity with each other as well notwithstanding later sinification.

Yes, E. Asians are alike, but that does not presuppose "Chinese" fathering, but rather, a shared father in our distant past.
so Monday, June 24, 2002 at 13:17:40 (PDT)

There are no known nomads in Korea,

Wrong analysis there.

Korean have many loan words from Chinese, many times completely replacing their original words. The Chinese loan words say nothing about Korea's origins.

Nomadism can exit only in a nomadic environment. The Korean peninsula is not hospitabal to a nomadic way of life.

Historians have not come to the conclusion that Koreans belong to the Altaic/Tungusic group for nothing. Korea has been strongly sinicized, but it was not sinitic in origin.

This fact is so well established that there's no point arguing this issue.
so Monday, June 24, 2002 at 13:17:00 (PDT)

we all came from the same fathers,

Kija is not Korea's founding father.

The "legend" of Kija (according to Chinese records) asserts that he immigrated to an already existant Korean state. The cultural continuity was maintained. Ancient Choson did not become a "Chinese" state after his arrival.

There's little doubt that Asians are more similar than different. But if you are trying to assert that the "Han" Chinese spread there prolific genes around E. Asia and fathered all the various ethnic peoples, you're sorely wrong.

The "genetic testing" doesn't prove this, but only that we're similar, and arguably originate from the same father in the distant past.
so Monday, June 24, 2002 at 13:16:11 (PDT)

How China came about,

No one's hiding from the facts.

I didn't say that the study compared only NE Chinese and Koreans.

The fact that ALL CHINESE share these DNA traits indicates how meaningless the study is inasmuch as the Chinese are a _relatively_ diverse and heterogenous group. If ALL Chinese, north and south, share these traits, how meaningful is the study? Not very. It simply indicates that E. Asians are very much alike. But that's no surprise, is it? Just by looking one could come to that conclusion.

Yen: The point is that the term "Chinese" does not indicate a specific ethnic group or race. It is a rather broad term pointing more to culture and politics. The Chinese kingdoms so-called were of mixed stock from the beginning, steppe and settled.
so Monday, June 24, 2002 at 13:15:17 (PDT)

To An Nam Guy,

Please read the French-Sino war history and how the French took Vietnam out of China's sovereignty by the Treaty signed in 1874 and got its independent, yup it was signed by Tu Duc (your King). Prior to that treaty, Vietnam was a protectoral territory of China, or could be said a vassal to China.

Every King in Annam had to go through the Emperor of China before he can become the ruler of Annam, even Gia Long and Quang Trung had to get permission from the emperor of China for his approval. Try to search for some topics, such as "Annam a vassal to China", "French-Sino War in 1884-85", and "The treaty of Saigon 1874 with rear-admiral Dupuis".

I know the mentality of nowadays Vietnamese, they don't want to be occupied by China...but common, history cannot be circulated with propaganda, especially from the one who has the intention to possibly manipulate history and so much an tendency to gain independent for his/her country. It's a crime for historian, like the case when Japan denies the "Nankin rape."

Be well.
The TraveLLer Monday, June 24, 2002 at 13:05:45 (PDT)

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