Comparing Asian Nationalities | Asian American Poll

COMPARING ASIAN NATIONALITIES
(Updated Wednesday, Jan 22, 2025, 06:39:09 AM to reflect the 100 most recent valid responses.)

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WHAT YOU SAY

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Man, I can't believe the BS on this topic. Can't we all just get along? In America most people just see us as "asian" or "oriental". I cheer for Ichiro, Chan Ho Park, and Yao Ming. Why the hell are Japanese and Chinese rooting against the Korean national soccer team. Europeans think we're all monkeys and Americans think we're all 5'3" and weaker than their eight year old boys. Funny, we use their stereotypes of us against each other. We bend over backward to please them and copy them and then criticize each other based on how much progress we've made being like them. So let's stop railing against each other and achieve individual goals.

As for this racialist bull...god, go exercise or read a book or something. Get your esteem from something else than trying to prove your racial stock or whatever is this or that...but then again people who post on these things are probably a bit disturbed anyways.
AsianUnity Sunday, June 30, 2002 at 00:53:33 (PDT)

I'm Thai and its weird how its not even an option. Chinese have mediocre looks but their personalities are CAUSTIC. Probably a very good reason why they took over and dominated so much land. They didnt care about anyone else. Truth be told i've yet to meet a likable chinese. Thailand is now a melting pot of all asian cultures and some european. Everyone will want to take pride in their descendant obviously. So this site is plainly a flame site. The votes are either made up or its just cuz there are so many chinese in the world lol.
JR Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 23:01:53 (PDT)

Genetic Structure of a 2,500-Year-Old Human Population in China and Its Spatiotemporal Changes

Li Wang(1)(2), Hiroki Oota(2), Naruya Saitou(3), Feng Jin(4), Takayuki Matsushita(5), and Shintaroh Ueda(2)

(2)Department of Biological Sciences, Graduate School of Science, University of Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan;
(1)Department of Medical and Animal Genetics, Institute of Genetics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing, China;
(3) Laboratory of Evolutionary Genetics, National Institute of Genetics, Mishima, Japan; (4)Laboratory of Human Genetics, Institute of Genetics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing, China; and
(5)Doigahama Site Anthropological Museum, Houhoku, Japan

Abstract
To examine temporal changes in population genetic structure, we compared the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA, "maternal DNA") sequences of three populations that lived in the same location, Linzi, China, in different periods: 2,500 years ago (the Spring?Autumn era), 2,000 years ago (the Han era), and the present day. Two indices were used to compare the genetic differences: the frequency distributions of the radiating haplotype groups and the genetic distances among the populations. The results indicate that the genetic backgrounds of the three populations are distinct from each other. Inconsistent with the geographical distribution, the 2,500-year-old Linzi population showed greater genetic similarity to present-day European populations than to present-day east Asian populations. The 2,000-year-old Linzi population had features that were intermediate between the present-day European/2,500-year-old Linzi populations and the present-day east Asian populations. These relationships suggest the occurrence of drastic spatiotemporal changes in the genetic structure of Chinese people during the past 2,500 years.

Caucasoids and East Asians lived side by side in ancient northern China Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 20:53:35 (PDT)

Hoklo Taiwanese,

>>>Taiwanese are easily better than other Asian groups and many other immigrant groups. Before we go to the US, like many japanese, we have already learned English!!!! It's because of other groups that we have to carry the stigma of the FOB. Other countires need to follow our example.<<<

You are seen as a FOB because you are Asian. It doesn't matter if you are born in the US or not, you will always be seen as a FOB. Many Chinese and Japanese 3rd or 4th generationers in the USA are always asked what country they are from and when people hear them talking flawless and accent-less English, they are shocked and amazed. Well, in my case, I noticed that many white bigots look down even more on the Asians born here and more assimilated. Because they see those Asians as trying to act "white."

the reality Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 20:20:36 (PDT)

to phil. guy20

your source must be wrong, i think the ones that were really glad with koreans lost were italians, portuguese and people from spain (we can continue this list due to the dirty way koreans won their last games) maybe japanese as co-hosts were jealous, but now after korea´s lost against the turks i don´t think they are anymore.
chinese-peruvian guy Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 19:44:22 (PDT)

Hoklo Taiwanese,

What in the world are your talking about. Most immigrants from HK, Indian, Singapore, and Philippines have much better English proficiency than Japan or Taiwan immigrant of similar education level.
AC Dropout Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 16:22:53 (PDT)

To, The site is REALLY REALLY LAme;

Through history it's hard and close to impossible to find out who first had a last name that is common.

*The rulers are of Yueh descent which could habe been passed for chinese. Get it??
so it's like the yueh rule the yueh, not that the rulers are foreigners.*

I find that to be a very accurate observation. Ok, the vietnamese were originally the yueh, they were attacked and moved south, but alot stayed in china. Also the fact that the people that governed vietnam at those times were from the south, who spoke cantonese (hence the slight influence in language), this says that they are from the south, they also have some yueh blood. Also the Yueh were EXTREMELY influential at that time, the chinese god of agriculture is an ancient ruler who was a yueh. Viet last names which are shared with the chinese could have been pasted down by the yueh themselves, hence the extensive passage of names like Chan/Li/Wu/Ng concentrated in the south, also the fact that the Yueh also moved to korea in small numbers which could be the handdown of the Lee in korea.

I don't know why people say that the viet last names come from chinese last names, because no one really knows, not even the chinese who carry the last names tehmselves. But through emigrational patterns, you can see the logical spreading of the last names, and the through the populations that have the last names. Fukien and Chekien was also a descendent of the Yueh, the last names shared with vietnam are also concentrated in Taiwan (fukien and such descendents who in turn are descendents to the yueh).

So i find it pathetic that sources claim such unprovable things.
Yup Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 15:33:32 (PDT)

General Viet,

Sorry, I made a mistake and needed to change the word "Chi" in the "Giao Chi".
The word "Chi" in Chinese is "Zhi"-meanning "TOE".

The real meanning of "Giao Chi" is "communicated or crossover toe".

Sorry, I was thinking of the "Chi" in "pointing at"...that's written in another character.

The TraveLLer Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 14:12:10 (PDT)

General Viet,

The treaty 1874 is not what you had described. What you wrote is from your belief. Please take some times to read that treaty and the treaty of 1862 of Saigon.

Be well
The TraveLLer Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 12:33:02 (PDT)

Yup,

"Does that paragraph say what i wanted to say? The vietnamese people NEVER wanted chinese rule, EVER, it's just that the chinese were always too powerful, or even when we could stand up against them and succeed they'll just come at us again. Just like the fricken mongols who came at us three times, we beat them badly, but after that we would just pay tribute, it's a lot easier then let people die. I don't give a piece of cheese that they rule our land or not, since two thousand years ago, they kicked us out of fukien, then guangdong, i am not surprised if they push us even more south. But you know what? We will always be a united group of people who govern ourselves despite what others say, on the bottom surface the viets have never and will never willingly give up our freedom so we can be slaves and just sit there and cry. We have always tried to do something about it. France may have controlled the territory, but never have they controlled the people. Same with china. There have always been resistance."

Please be real a little bit here, would you? First, you want to accept Vietnamese as in a faity tale story...then, you attack me for not knowing the Vietnamese's history. You posted, "As the legends have stated, every vietnamese person came from fairies and dragons. We're equal all equal, commoner and aristrocrat.", simply to tell me your level of thinking or what?

My education background exceeds that of the undergrad. education level, and you want me to abide to a fairy tale? It's nice to hear legend and myth from time to time but come on, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

If you want a fair and logical discussion or conversation, then I'm all ears but I don't want to get into your unnecessary child play.

Be well
The TraveLLer Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 12:28:43 (PDT)

5)My Last words on DNA tests/Origin of Koreans/Eastern Barbarians("Dong-yi" people)/etc.:

(I apologize for my long absence from this forum if some people have been wondering about my silence. 7 of my relatives had been visiting me from Korea/Washington Dc this past week, and I just couldn't find time to write...Ah, those blood-suckers...Haha...and Worldcup soccer fever sweeping across Korean-American community!)

Okay, as I stated previously the DNA test done by 4 Korean geneticts doesn't really tell the whole story. I'm not surprised at all that those Chinese males were of Taiwanese origin because after all Koreans and Southern Chinese do share a lot of genes in common. C'mon now, we are all members of yellow race(there were considerable amount of interactions between Korean Peninsula and southern parts of China in ancient times)...Anyway, how could I miss that they were Taiwanese males? Were they really? I'm a little bit embarrassed about this because I tried to read the article very carefully even though I admit, I did skim through certain parts. Besides I do know/should know more about genetics than I'll ever about history/languages/etc...

The Y-chromosome (the paternal lineage) test only tells me that compared to Taiwanese males (what, 95%?) Korean males (82%?) did have more non-Asian fathers, e.g., Ainus/Dravidians/even a few Aryans/God knows what else. That's it.

To me, tracing the origin of Koreans/Chinese/Japanese through Y-chromosome is pretty silly and unscientific. It's a waste of time...

I mean, when you're tracing the paternal lineage (or even maternal lineage through mtDNA) of Koreans/Chinese/Japanese, you are basically talking about same ancestors/progenitors who split up very recently, maybe 8,000-10,000/a few thousand years ago(of course, all three races did mix during the past 4-5000 years or so to further complicate the matter). Our respective ancestors were not drastically different from one another like the ancestors of Africans/Europeans, Aryans/Dravidians, or Spanish conquistadors/native Indians were, who spit up at much much earlier time(the Y-chromosome/mtDNA tests of these groups actually revealed some interesting facts as we all suspected...)

Anyway, I had read many other published articles in the past/also a few new articles very recently on some internet sites regarding the Asian DNA, and this is what I gathered(please bear in mind that I'm comparing the "overall" genetic markers/characteristics);

Korean DNA is closest to those of Manchus/Uighurs/Kazakhs/Buriats(a Mongolian tribe found in Manchuria. Believed to have moved there after Mongol Dynasty fell about 600 years ago)/Mongolians(Inner/Outer)/ETC. Period.

Yes, Korean DNA -- despite having to mix with other "foreign" genetic stocks for the past few millenia, particularly with Han Chinese -- is still closest to those of their Altaic bretheren in Northeast/Central Asia. After these Altaic groups, Japanese and Northern Chinese are Koreans' next closest kins.
Of course, Tibetians are also closely related to these people.

Japanese DNA is closest to Korean DNA. There is no if's/but's/and's regarding this genetic relationship. Koreans are their closest relatives.

Northern Chinese is closest to Hui people. Also they are very close to Mongolians. Actually, Northern Chinese are genetically closer to Mongolians than they are to Koreans. Mongolians stand somewhere at mid-point between the Han Chinese and Koreans. All in all, Northern Chinese cluster together with various ethnic groups in Northeast/Central Asia.

Southern Chinese -- although they are closely related to their northern brethren -- actually cluster together with people in Thailand/Burma/Southeast Asia(Vietnam/etc.)

Why can't the Chinese accept the obvious truth??

The origin of majority (about 70%) of Korean people lies in Central/Northeast Asia. The ancient nomadic/horse-riding Altaic people were the ones that formed the backbone of modern Korean genetics...

It's not very wise to question why modern Korean language doesn't have a word or words referring to nomads/horse-riding culture except for Chinese loanwords. Actually, we do have some forgotten/discarded pure Korean words that clearly show our nomadic roots. One of them happens to be a word that has a meaning of a great leader or hero(like "khan" in Mongolian). This particular Korean word -- which can be traced back to 3rd or 4th century -- actually does sound very very similar to "Khan" and guess what? A Hungarian word for a great leader/hero happens to have same word/exact pronunciation!

After Koreans started to settle down in Korean peninsuala, the ruling class out of their eagerness to adopt Chinese culture/become civilized, stopped using many many native Korean words in favor of Chinese loanwords. Thousands of Chinese words were borrowed while numerous Korean words were discarded/scorned upon...

A few Korean linguists are now trying to revive the usage of some native Korean words, but after more than a thousand years of using Chinese loanwords, I mean, this nationlistic movement is futile...

Those who think so-called "Eastern Barbarians"/"Eastern Bowmen"(Dong-yi) did not have any influnce/imprints on ancient Chinese genetics/culture do not know too well about their history.

Please excuse my ignorance in history as I've confessed on numerous occasions, but one Chinese king of a certain ancient dynasty, going back a few thousand years, happened to be of Dong-yi stock(he married a Chinese wife); history tells us that he was the one who introduced some vital iron weapon technogolgy to the indigenous Chinese people. Later on, armed with these arms/weaponry, this Chinese king of Dong-yi origin and his Dong-yi/Chinese followers invaded Manchuria/Northeastern China, and tried to drive out the Dong-yi people from there. I don't remember all the details -- it's been too damn long -- but that's an account of authentic Chinese history. Yes, many Dong-yi people migrated southward into China proper and interacted/interbred with the Han Chinese...

If you think Kija and his 5000 followers were the ones who founded Korea/fathers of Korean people, please stop making me laugh. Ancient Koreans/rather Dong-yi people were already there in Northeastern China/Manchuria/Korean peninsula, way before Kija's arrival...

I thank those posters who corrected my heroic account of a possible Uljimunduk descendant; I really really hesitated about writing that particular story, but maybe in my eagerness of emphasize Goguryo influence on Tang Dynasty, I guess I made a blunder. Guess who told me that story? A very intelligent electrical engineer(with a master's degree) from one of the top universities. He ain't no historian for sure...

I mean, it's very typical of Chinese people to think that everybody/everything did originate from China, isn't it? Haha. Koreans came from China. So did the Japanese...
Please, stop being a comedian although I like to be amused from time to time.

We Koreans don't deny our debt to Chinese people, particularly regarding many aspects of our culture. We've become greatly Sinicized, particularly during the past 1000 years or so. I can spend a whole month on this topic alone. I kowtow to you Chinese people.
Without the benefit of Chinese loanwords, we Koreans can't even communicate with each other. Period.

We don't even deny the fact that many Korean people have Chinese ancestors. Some of the most well-known/respected/famous/influential individuals/clans of Korean history actually did have Chinese ancestors. Their legacy still lives on in our history/bloodlines...

However, the original/majority of Korean roots did come from nomadic/horse-riding people of Central/Northeast Asia. There's no argument regarding this fact. Nobody in his/her right mind will even think about arguing this point. I can spend a whole month on this topic.
I just don't understand why so many Chinese posters think otherwise?! Maybe they are just too young/ignorant of Korean history. That's the best explanation I have.
Japanese are a bit different; they do have a considerable Pacific/Malay influence on their culture/genetics when compared to their closest neighbors, us Koreans...

Anyway, since I've become a regular poster on Goldsea -- for almost a month now -- I've changed somewhat. Although I recognize this is an internet site, I do have somewhat different opinions of Chinese people than I did before.

In real life, I get along great with people of Chinese descent. No surprise there. Some of my best friends from my school days happened to be of Chinese origin(Taiwanese).

We all try to be polite/cordial/politically correct in public, you know.

About a week ago, I finally met and talked with my new Chinese neighbors who came from mainland China. The husband is doing some post-doctorate research work(geology) at a local university. The wife is preparing for GRE(she wants to get a MBA in accounting). They have a little boy named Jack. I did have a great time conversing with them. They seemed very nice and obviously educated/intelligent.
As we were conversing, they were really surprised at how much I knew about China/Chinese history. In return, they virtually knew nothing about Korea/Korean history. Almost none... The only thing they said(how they immediately recognized I was Korean) was like how Koreans tended to be tall, of bigger body build, etc.
I guess that's the differene between Koreans and Chinese in essence. Chinese basically don't care about Koreans or Korean history, their closest neighbors whereas we Koreans still pay a great deal of attention/respect to them...

One Korean Man Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 04:32:02 (PDT)

elisa,

You are absolutely right. When I saw China play Turkey on TV, the local Koreans were holding Turkish flags and cheering the Turkish team on. I think they still have that wrong impression or dream that they and the Turks are somehow related cousins. One look at the Turkish team and you will see there is nothing in common between them and Koreans. But, if you look at the Chinese team, they are of the same color and race.

And, don't forget that the Tang armies had also employed Turkic tribal mercenaries to invade Koguryo (that ultimately led to its final destruction).
my Altaic brothers Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 00:52:30 (PDT)

Hoklo Taiwanese,

>>>Excuse me, but I simply don't like Southern Chinese people. I don't like Koreans, blacks, or Indians either so what?? It's a free world and I can think and say whatever I feel like!!!!!!
Hahahaha<<<

You are entitled to your opinions, but when you mentioned Southern Chinese people, did you really only want to refer to Cantonese people or all Southern Han Chinese groups? If so, your people belongs in the same group you hate and loathe so much.

I think all Southern Chinese have inferiority complex. They always view the northerners in higher fashion, but will easily sling mud at each other.
It's ridiculous Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 00:42:44 (PDT)

The Chinese were not effeminate in any sense of this meaning.

The Qin, Han and Tang armies fared very well against northern nomads. There were constant counter-attacks on both sides. The early Ming was just as assertive against the Mongols.

But, it is the later Song, later Ming and later Qing that people have this image of China always being beaten around.

China is strong and masculine when the nation is united. It is weak and effeminate when it becomes disunited and isolationist.

Anyways, what do you guys mean by "masculine" and "feminine" traits among a certain ethnic group as a whole? What does it take to be a real man?

Remember: It is the Chinese man nowadays who triumphs and beats down the Mongol and Tibetan nomads.
United Asians Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 00:33:55 (PDT)

To all the people denying the Korean genes being closer to Han Chinese than it is to Mongols,

GOOD LUCK IN YOUR IDENTITY SEARCH AND DENIAL!!!

You claim the samples were too small. Yet, do you know that Korean geneticists have at various times painstakingly compared their DNA to Mongol, Turkish and Manchu groups as well as their favorites (the Japanese)?
Yet, only when they bring in the Han Chinese as part of the equation, that they see that they are closest to the Han Chinese in genes, along with Japanese. These 3 groups are more similar with each other and to other Sino-Tibetan and Southeast Asians than they are to Ural-Altaic ones.

If Koreans were said to be genetically closer to the Mongols, I know that no one here would make a fuss because that is what they want to believe in.

But, the facts have shown and will continue to show (even if you test all 80 million N. and S. Koreans) that their DNA is still closer to the Han Chinese than it is to Mongols, Turks and Manchus.

400 unrelated individuals is already considered extremely high for a DNA research sample!!!
argue it any way you want it to be Saturday, June 29, 2002 at 00:25:31 (PDT)

To General Viet:

What is "Giao Chi"? If you are a Vietnamese, you should know this. Even Confucius knew this.

Have you heard of "Vietnam Giao Chi"? Ask every Vietnamese historian, he/she will tell you that it's a pure "Viet" breed, it's not what you described pertaining to your toes.

"Giao Chi" feet are both of the first toes pointing to each other, giving them the leverage in running.

"Giao" jiao(Chinese) = connection, communicating or crossover.
"Chi" Zhi(Chinese) = Pointing.

Usually the Chinese will refer as "Yueh Zhi"

The TraveLLer Friday, June 28, 2002 at 23:20:20 (PDT)

To "The site is REALLY REALLY LAme":

I don't understand your question and your anger. However, if you tell me to based my comprehensive in history from a mythological source, then I'm sorry my brain hasn't fallen off yet.

"The first ruler of Vietnam are Chinese?
According to Vietnamese mythology, Lac Long Quan and Au Co, the first ancestry of Vietnamese are of "chinese" ancestry. Lac Long Quan is one of the sons of Shen Nung emperor. He occupied the southern territory and one of his brother occupied the Northen part of China. He married Au Co, daughter of the king of De Lai ( a nation located in Zhejiang). They had 100 sons. 50 of them go to the mountain, 50 to the sea.
Lac Long Quan is the son of Shen Nung who is chinese. That explains the Vietnamese migrated from what is now China. or Vietnamese and chinse are brothers. However it's only a mythology. But by analyzing it, you could say the first ruleres of Vietnam (Lac Long Quan, An Duong Vuong, Hung Kings,etc) belong to the same race as the anceint grass-roots vietnamese. The rulers are of Yueh descent which could habe been passed for chinese. Get it??
so it's like the yueh rule the yueh, not that the rulers are foreigners."

Tell me, who were the ones that wrote the legendary history of Vietnam at first? Was that the Vietnamese or the westerner? Were the Vietnamese the ones who wrote their history based on legend an myth? If that is the case...then who is to blame?

Lastly, can you name us the one(s) that wrote the Vietnamese history based on fairy tale? I await your answer, thank you.
The TraveLLer Friday, June 28, 2002 at 22:17:25 (PDT)

General Viet:

Could you give me the links to the other forum where you discuss Vietnamese history ? I want to know more about VIETnamese history.
Thanks in advance Friday, June 28, 2002 at 21:54:23 (PDT)

To, Hoklo Taiwanese;

Well that's kind of non-sense. Follow taiwan's lead? C'mon, that's like saying that nations like Vietnam knew that a war would have broken out, knew that they would have lost so they should have learnt english in advanced. Or saying that the chinese men knew in advanced that after coming to Canada to build the worlds greatest railroad they'll have so much taxes on their heads to pay that they can't go home. Or even saying to the Japanese during WWII that they should all learn english better and emerge into the western american world so that they'll be better accepted by the american public, because they knew that pearl harbor was going to be a surprise attack. C'mon...
Hafti Friday, June 28, 2002 at 20:57:16 (PDT)

to elisa:

OK, allow me to clarify...

actually, if you converse with many Chinese soccer fans from mainland China, you will find a significant number of them are quite angry at South Korea's success in this World Cup... many of them subscribe to the conspiracy theory that the South Koreans have done so well due to deliberate help from refereeing...

it seems to me that this anger may be due partly to jealousy (comparing success of South Korea and China's miserable performance in this World Cup), although it is true that South Korea soccer team may have received the benefit of the doubt from some refereeing decisions (especially against Italy and Spain).

ABC in NYC Friday, June 28, 2002 at 19:40:35 (PDT)

Hoklo Taiwanese:
"Before we go to the US, like many japanese, we have already learned English!!!! It's because of other groups that we have to carry the stigma of the FOB. Other countires need to follow our example."
Are you being sarcastic? If you're going to make grandiose claims, next time make sure it's about stuff that's hard to find data on. This document took thirty seconds to find and another twenty to download (your mileage may vary if you're using a modem):
ftp://ftp.ets.org/pub/toefl/10496.pdf

Out of 23 countries in Asia for which data were available in the year 2001, Taiwan's average TOEFL scores were #20 at 193, roughly the 15th percentile on a worldwide scale. In Asia, only Mongolia, Japan, and NORTH Korea scored lower. Taiwan scored 11 points lower than the worldwide average for Chinese mother tongue students, 13 points lower than #12 Hong Kong, and 18 points lower than #8 mainland China. The rank of #20 is behind every other Asian country besides Japan (#22) which supplies a large number of foreign students to the United States. 14 of the nations whose average TOEFL scores are higher than Taiwan's have living standards two to ten times lower. Taiwan, which was never ruled by a communist government, has a lower average TOEFL score than every communist or former communist country in Asia besides Mongolia and North Korea. 10 of the nations ahead of Taiwan have experienced wars on their own soil in the past 50 years. Do I need to go on?
T.H. Lien Friday, June 28, 2002 at 19:04:21 (PDT)

"You're one white-washed "American" with serious identity issues who has trouble relating to things non-American."-Hoklo Taiwanese

Well, let's see, I was born in the US...I'm a 3rd generation American-born... I've lived here for 30 years... Duh, of course, I'm American. I'd say it's better to be American than an Asian racist such as yourself.

Asian American Friday, June 28, 2002 at 17:24:28 (PDT)

General Viet,

The situation with Quang Trung (Nguyen Hue) was that he wasn't a nobleman or a member of the aristocrat and was considered by the Chinese emperor as a rebellious barbarian. However, Quang Trung is a very intelligent, gathered many powerful and intellectual people to work for him. With his outburst in defeating the Chinese, the emperor of China (during the Qing Dynasty) had fear to Quang Trung's talent. Further, the southern provinces of China had a large number of the Ming dynasty loyalist and could rebel any time; unification between the Ming loyalist and Quang Trung would be a big threat to Chien Lung/ Can long(Qing emperor). In fact, Quang Trung's army also consisted of many Ming Dynasty loyalist who lived in Saigon "Cho Lon", some held high position in Quang's Trung Army.

Quang Trung is an intelligent person, he knew that after defeating the Chinese troop there could be a revenge against him by the Qing in the latter period. Kwowing that the Qing emperor had some fear toward him, he presented himself to the Qing emperor. The Qing emperor, with certain degree of fear, reconciled and accepted Quang Trung to be the king of Annam, and he offered Quang Trung the princess of Manchu.

Unfortunately, Quang Trung died in 1792, at an early age. His death is a mystery to this day. There were some who speculated that the emperor of China poisoned Quang Trung, still it's a great mystery.

BTW, "Nguyen Hue" is not his real name. Quang Trung real surname is "Ho", his given name is "Thom". He and his brothers changed their last name for political reason, this is to invade the south and gathered troops among popularity.

As for Gia Long, He was considered as a nobleman, a royal descendant, and an aristocrat. Without the "Le" and the "Trinh" reigning over Annam, it was no doubt that "Gia Long" had no difficulty in obtaining the investiture from the Qing emperor.

Notice, before this chaos started, China emperor had recognized the "Le" dynasty as the prince of his territory, Annam. In Annam, the annamese king elected by the emperor of China was to be known as the emperor of the land. All the foreign policy in Annam is control by the Chinese emperor. The Annam king only ruled his people in Annam; in China, he is considered as "Vuong or Wang(in Mandarin Chinese)".

Be well...
The TraveLLer Friday, June 28, 2002 at 16:42:16 (PDT)

To, the traveller;

*One question, how were the people in the old days? Were they barbarious? If they are, would they be killing all the local people that ethnically do not belong to them? If not, would they make these local people into slaves?

History shows that mankind in the old days was barbarous then nowadays. Often, after conquering an empire from another, massacre and slavery were brought to the extinction of the formal clan. +1,000 years of occupation, there is a lot of change, don't you think?*

Ahhh, that kind of doesn't really rebute what i say. Your just saying that everyone were barbarians and everyone was trying to kill everyone, and so this justifies anything because? Just to let you know, even then the chinese had confucious ideas, of mercy of goodness, they had a concience they had a ruler, they had civilization. I would expect wiping out of an entire ethnic from the mongols who didn't have these, but the chinese did. I don't see how you can even try to justify something like that with a few words along the line of, "well everyone was doing it."
General Viet Friday, June 28, 2002 at 15:34:34 (PDT)

Hoklo Taiwanese (imposter),

"Taiwanese are easily better than other Asian groups and many other immigrant groups.....It's because of other groups that we have to carry the stigma of the FOB...."

You're full of feces.
Hoklo Taiwanese Friday, June 28, 2002 at 15:31:04 (PDT)

"When the Koreans lost according to one commentator of the world cup, no country was happier that japan. But never the less, TEAM KOREA lets go 3rd place!!! w00t w00t!!!!"

Am just happy that this soccer hoopla is gonna be over soon. It's nothing but nationalism orgy fest. Just look at those fools with their flags painted on them.

Hoklo Taiwanese Friday, June 28, 2002 at 15:26:51 (PDT)

elisa,

What?! You seriously have a comprehension problem. Read my earlier posts and you'll know that I'm pro-Chinese, pro-China, pro-reunification, etc.. So what if I say the Chinese soccer team sucks? They suck OK. Not a single GOAL for them. Not even one! They got much to learn. I don't even understand why they were qualified to be in the world cup to begin with. Yeah yeah, I know they're a new team.

Hoklo Taiwanese Friday, June 28, 2002 at 15:08:42 (PDT)

"Taiwanese are easily better than other Asian groups and many other immigrant groups. Before we go to the US, like many japanese, we have already learned English!!!! It's because of other groups that we have to carry the stigma of the FOB. Other countires need to follow our example."

YOU MUST BE JOKING
Twinz Friday, June 28, 2002 at 12:37:26 (PDT)

To the traveller;

I should know this, ok. Just to say, don't trust too many chinese sources unless it's directly from a famous chinese library that was written for the emperors, or the ones that are hidden in vaults, because the chinese gov't have this 'tendency' to make themselves seem noble in EVERYTHING they do. If you look throughout chinese history, dynasty after dynasty they have written 'good things' about themselves, then comes another dynasty that will erase that 'good stuff' to just add in 'bad stuff'. They can deviate. You never see too much bad history, the defeats of the chinese troops aren't recorded well, tiananmen square incident isn't in the current history books published in 2002, also the Tibet thing. All the injust done by the chinese won't be fixed. That's why my family moved to taiwan, we know that we can change our future and start knowing the truth.

Taiwan all the way BABAI.

da way to the sea is to walk down the mountain.
Taiwan princess Friday, June 28, 2002 at 11:19:02 (PDT)

To, the traveLLer;

MAN, i don't give a damn if i'm full chinese or not in blood, all i know is my blood is pumped by my viet heart. Chinese is a nationality, it can be dismissed and you can accept another. Ethnic doesn't mean your chinese, if today i find that i am 100% han, i still will not forget the historical fact that the vietnamese have been persecuted and killed because of their fight for freedom in the past. Peasants were killed because they stood up for their mothers who were raped, for their fathers who were killed and for their little boys who were castrated. Men who fought for the good of the nation. You seem to have this mentality that Quang Trung is more of a 'role model' to the vietnamese then the Tay Son because he asked for permission, WRONG, no one gives about who he got the power from, but from what he did. He's one of my hero's because he also fought for the good of the nation, dispite the difficult road. The Tay Son did the same, they feel what we feel, i don't care if they asked for foreign help or not, asking for foreign help for an internal affair is a cowards way of cheating their way out. Dishonorable thinking i would say.

Plus we were talking about vietnam's sovereignty, and if my blood is part 'chinese' it's probably from the Yueh stock, which can also be called 'vietnamese' as we're equal descendents, we in vietnam and southern china, but we might have more percentages of purity as well. Or we can be of the Red River Delta, i believe the Red River Delta one, because they were found to have 'funny feet', and in the north most have 'funny feet', with a BIT more space (NOT TO THE EXTREME, just a bit, enough to be noticeable, not too much that it even effects my life) with the second toe longer. That is how the Red River Delta feets were like, BUT there were other versions of the 'funny feet' don't know them all, but there was some other kinds that ARE found to be extinct, but not the one i was talking about.
General Viet Friday, June 28, 2002 at 11:12:38 (PDT)

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