Comparing Asian Nationalities | Asian American Poll

COMPARING ASIAN NATIONALITIES
(Updated Wednesday, Jan 22, 2025, 06:39:09 AM to reflect the 100 most recent valid responses.)

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WHAT YOU SAY

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Although Cantonese and Hakka saw each other as less Chinese, the fact is that their dialects and DNA are the closest to each other than to other Chinese groups. Hakka dialect is probably midway between Cantonese and Minnan (Fukien dialect). Among Cantonese, the Toisan dialect has some peculiar features that is also shared by Hakka. Likewise, both Hakka and Toisan dialects also have some features that are found among Gan dialect speakers in Jiangxi province.

Genetics is complicated as we know that Cantonese and Hakka are closest to each other. Fukien is somewhat different but still closer to Hakka-Cantonese than they all are to northerners. And, the She minority group (reputed to be most directly related to Yue group) also show similarities with Hakka, Cantonese and Fukien. But, also, the Mandarin speakers of Guangxi are also more closer genetically to the She as well as the other southern Han groups (Cantonese, Hakka, Fukien) than they are with the Mandarin speakers of northern China. This is based on immunoglobins. Paternal haplotypes now show a continuity between northern and southern China. This continuity also branches out into Korea and IndoChina.

It is likely that when Tang Dynasty fell, the ancestors of Cantonese, Toisan, Hakka and Fukien groups were already beginning their southward trek. They all have the same geneological southward migration stories. Then, after the fall of Song Dynasty and conquest of China by Mongols, these southern groups moved more south (to Guangdong) due to population and migration pressures. One of the last Song emperors died in the Pacific Ocean near present day Guangzhou and Hong Kong. His eunuch floated him into the ocean and said that a "dragonly body" (emperor) can never be touched by barbarians (Mongols).

Many Chinese (the ancestors of the Hakkas, Cantonese, Toisan and Fukien) fled south and dispersed. So, it is a misnomer for Cantonese to call Hakkas (meaning, "guest families") as well as it is for Hakkas to consider Cantonese as Yueh aborginals, and thus "less Chinese" than they are. In a sense, both the Hakkas and Cantonese are "guest families and Yueh aboriginals." It is in their blood and language (both Han and Yueh). Both are each others closest relatives and do not care to realize it.
Cantonese, Hakka, Toisanese, Fukienese Saturday, July 06, 2002 at 23:14:04 (PDT)

Chinese soldiers were recruited in large numbers almost from the first time of the first Mongol invasions. Many deserted the Jurchen Jin in favour of what they correctly judged to be the winning side. The Han Chinese troops proved invaluable against the strongly walled cities of their native land and when campaigning in intensively cultivated rice-growing regions criss-crossed by numerous waterways. When Genghis Khan attacked Muslim Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), he left only 23,000 Mongol troops under Mukali to carry on the fight against the fierce Jurchen Jin. But, Mukali could also call upon an equal number of Han Chinese auxiliaries and with this relatively small army he continued to expand Genghis Khan's territory in northern China.

By the time of Kublai Khan, the Mongols, Uighurs and other Central Asian Muslims served as officers, archers and cavalry units, but most of the siege soldiers and foot soldiers were made of Han Chinese who helped in the conquest of Song (southern China), Dali (Yunnan) as well as the invasions of Vietnam, Japan and Malaysia. Kublai Khan's leading expert on fire weapons was a certain Chang Chun-tso. Though he was himself a Chinese, he learned his trade from his father, who had accompanied Genghis Khan on his invasion of Muslim Transoxiana and Iran.

Japanese frescoes and paintings often depict the "Mongol" forces with large rectangular shields and long cane spears. These were most likely to have been southern Han Chinese soldiers of the defeated Song Dynasty, rather than Korean troops.

Little is known that the Mongol ruler of Persia (Hulagu) tried to install Chinese culture, religion and arts into the Muslim world. He had imported Chinese troops, administrators, engineers, scientists, artists, doctors, Chinese Buddhist monks, Chinese Nestorian Christian priests all over Persia and Arabia. TO NO AVAIL!!! They all later converted to Islam 30 years later under Oljeitu Khan. This was simple because most of the Chinese who accompanied the Mongols and Turks to Persia came without women. So, they had to purchase, take native Persian Muslim women as wives. It is easy to understand that the children of these Chinese, Mongols and non-Muslim Turks became "Persianized" and "Islamicized."

But, Hulagu himself had tried to obliterate Muslim Persian culture and replace it with a Chinese Buddhist one.

His name "Hulagu", which means "the one in excess" or "the overflowing". Both he and Kublai Khan were the sons of Tolui, the third son of Genghis Khan. The 2 boys were personally blooded by Genghis Khan in an ancient Mongol hunting ritual after making their first kills with a bow. But, while the 11 year-old Kublai only brought down a wild hare, the nine year-old bagged a wild mountain goat. Nevertheless, Hulagu was given a better education than most Mongol princes. He developed an interest in philosophy, alchemy and astrology and liked to surround himself with learned men. Yet, he always remained unpredictable and at times displayed appalling savagery. This cannot be put down solely to his Mongol heritage, for his brother Kublai grew into a remarkably tolerant and humane ruler. Perhaps, it is true, as some chroniclers claimed, that Hulagu was epileptic and that this affected his temper.

On October 19, 1253 Hulegu was given a farewell feast by the Grand Khan Mengke in Mongolia. 2 out of every available 10 Mongol soldiers were given to him in this conquest of the Abbasid Caliphate. Khan Chagatai of Central Asia and Khan Batu of Russia also sent contingents to join Hulagu. One thousand infantry skilled in siege warfare also came from the northern China.

In 1256, they came across the Assassin Ismailis of Iran whose walled castles were impenetrable to the Mongol and Turkic horsemen. The Han Chinese auxiliaries and siege engineers were skilled in taking down these walls and thus proved the turning point in Hulagu's conquest of Iran.

Later in preparation of the battle for Baghdad, a Chinese general, Guo Gan was now in charge. Again, those same Chinese troops who tore down the walls of cities in Iran now did the same in Baghdad. The city was smoked out and given over to a great slaughter. The last Abbasid Caliph was chained and brought over to Hulagu. Hulagu took this Caliph (al-Mutasim) by the ears and asked him why is more powerful than the heavens? The Caliph was laughing and accepted his fate. He said that all Muslim subjects were his slaves under Allah. Hulagu had him killed in an honorable way. Carpets rolled over him while horses trampled over him.

In 1260, Damascus was also sacked. Only in Egypt were the Mongols stopped. But, they were defeated by similar Asian Turks (Mamluks) and not black Egyptians and Arabs.

Hulagu decreed that in this new Ilhan Empire that people of all religions: Muslims, Christians, Jews, Magians, Zoroastrians as well as Buddhists.

In reality Muslims were ill-treated in Iran at that time. They were not allowed to govern and replaced by administrators from China and Uighur lands. Many Buddhist temples were built all over Iran during Hulagu's reign. Unfortunately, in 14th cent, under Oljeitu Khan, all these Buddhist temples were obliterated and the Chinese and Uigur Buddhist monks were either forced to return to China and Central Asia or convert to Islam. Only now through archaeology, do people find the ruins of these temples in Iran.

Chinese art also found its way into Iran at this time. It can still be seen and detected in modern Iranian and Turkish paintings.

Chinese doctors, astronomers, astrologists and scientists were found all over Iran at this time as well. One famous Iranian historian (Rashid al-Din, an Iranian Jew, was known to have practiced Chinese medicine from the Chinese doctors in Iran).

A Chinese Nestorian Christian priest, Markus (later known as Patriarch Mar Yaballaha III) who made a pilgrimmage from China to Jerusalem was appointed by Hulagu as Patriarch.

And, it is known that the right hand minister of Hulagu Khan was a Chinese (Bolad Ching Sang). He came from Kublai Khan's empire. And, he later helped introduced Chinese paper currency and other arts to Iran and Middle East.

But, the Mongols also left much destruction to the Middle East that has still not recovered to this day. In many cities, the effective irrigation tools and techniques were destroyed as many of its inhabitants were also killed.

A look at Mongol history and when Asia once ruled the world Saturday, July 06, 2002 at 22:12:47 (PDT)

You guys keep mentioning the Yueh living in Guangdong, but did you know that they might have largely perished or left Guangdong during the late 800 ADs?

Around that time (close to fall of Tang) a rebellion took place by Huang Chao.

He and his band looted all the way down to Guangdong. There, whom he especially had great hate and envy of the Arab and Persian mercantile success, he did a great genocide and slaughter of the local populace that included Han, Yueh, Persian and Arab.

The massacre was so huge population declined. At the beginning of the 8th century AD, the population of Guangdong was 220,000. At the time of the slaughter (late 800 ADs), Canton city had close to 300,000 people. The slaughter was so great that even 300 years later, in 1080 AD, the whole Guangdong region was occupied by only 210,000 people. When the Song Dynasty was forced to move south due to Khitan, Xixia, Jurchen and Mongol invasions and at the beginning of the Yuan Dynasty (circa 1300 AD), the population in Guangdong (Pearl River Delta area) rose back to 3.2 million. This was certainly due to migration as well as increase of people already settled there.

All the ancestors of the Cantonese, Toisan and Hakka came via Jiangxi and Hunan province. Genetic DNA confirms that people of Hunan and faraway Shaanxi province share almost identical genes.

But, I must say that there must have been some Yueh and perhaps some Middle Eastern genes that the later larger incoming Han Chinese from the north picked up and absorbed as they reached Guangdong.

Some Yueh still live in the mountainous and inaccessible regions of Guangdong (She minority group). They are similar to the larger Zhuang of Guangxi. Whether they are related to Vietnamese is not known? Their language is listed as Sino-Tibetan just like the Hmong (their closest relatives).
Cantonese roots Saturday, July 06, 2002 at 18:01:51 (PDT)

Just compare the trial outcomes of Pifen Lo and Charles Ng!!!

No justice in both of them!!!

All due to racism. Just like what happened to Vincent Chin 3 decades ago.

Charles Ng asked to represent and defend himself in court? DENIED!!!

Charles Ng asked to removed the trial to a locale where there would be more Asians and asked that at least one Asian be seated in the juror's box? ALL DENIED!!!

That there was sexual misconduct on the white judge in the case of Pifen Lo is without doubt based on the overwhelming evidence. Same story. Evidence DENIED!!!

This justice system in the USA does not work for Asians whether they are the defendant or the prosecutor.
where is the justice? Saturday, July 06, 2002 at 17:41:32 (PDT)

Lets see some flaws on General Viet's posts; Although, the first paragraph wasn't addressed to me.:

*****And i don't know what you mean by 500,000 people were relocated. Are you talking about the Yueh? Or are you talking about the chinese civilians one? The civilians as a fact concentrated around Guangdong more, people who were relocated in vietnam soon moved north to guangdong to stay. Because from histroy the chinese weren't accepted at that time, marriages were refused if you were of chinese descent, no matter how powerful you are. Read up on general le chan's story, she was approached by the governor of vietnam (a chinese person) to marry her, BUT her family refused and she was sent away to hide, her family was then murdered. Also the Trung Sisters kind of kicked alot of chinese people out because of fear of them helping the chinese army out in espionage. Not alot stayed. ****

>>>Actually, the Trung sisters only occupied the Northern Viernamese territory for ~3 years...uhh, the Han stayed 1000 years. The Chinese ruled Vietnam from 111 BC to 939 AD, the Trung sister controlled from 40 AD to 43 AD. 3/1000 years, who had more of a saying power, the Han or the local? Who was conquering who at this time? If my memory doesn't serve me wrong, all the high rank officials, laws, orders and technologies were the Hans... It looks like the local Vietnamese's had no saying and were logically not being accepted in the society at that time, since they were under the control of the Chinese. ME t'ink dis guy iz bent on real history fact.... Where is a simple logic of explanation, as I questioned????

Here we go:
*****During the ~200 years war between the "Nguyen and Trinh", China didn't get involved. If the "Nguyen" and the "Trinh" were controlling the "Le", then why didn't they claim to be king of Annam? It must be approved by the emperor of China, thus the "Nguyen" and the "Trinh" held on to their status as the lords.*

Actually, the reason why they kept the name 'lord' because none of them were actually fighting to become ruler of vietnam at that time. Originally the Nguyen had more power over the Le emperors, later the Trinh got the upper hand. The Nguyen's in an attempt to once again get the upper hand went into a long war with the Trinh. No one won, if the Nguyens won they probably would have declared themselves ruler, but they didn't before they could have the Tay Son came in and destroyed the entire family. Common vietnamese knowledge.*****

Are you assuming or is there any fact to this? Seem to me it's based on your opinion.

*****Could be said so, but everyone knows that the people of Annam by a large scale cnnot defeat the whole Chinese emperor army.*

Through logic the Qing had the upper hand, BUT throughout chinese history every rebellious group who later gained control of china was the underdog like Quang Trung was. The chinese themselves knew that anything could have happened, ESPECIALLY with the support from Ming loyalists, who can capture the hearts of MANY more chinese hearts adding strenght to Quang Trung's already powerful army. If your logic ALWAYS worked, then china would be a nation of only ONE dynasty, BUT instead there are many, each one destroyed by an underdog...****

geez, General Viet, why don't you ask Quang Trung that question? As fas as I know, He made peace with the emperor of China and died in 1792. Have you thought that perhaps he didn't want to see more blood shed? Or was he planning another suprise attack, but unfortunately died before the action was carrying out? Or could it be a blunder made by him? Who knows, but all of these could be a variant gesture of him not to continue invading China. Heck, Why don't you ask him yourself, rather to make an assumption?

Hey G.V., all this time that I'd been here, what I noticed was that most of your posts were based on your faulty logic of reasoning, not by pure fact. I cannot change history for any part nor do I have the power to do so, just to be on your side. It's my "critical thinking", if you don't mind!!! Too bad you don't like what I presented...

The TraveLLer Friday, July 05, 2002 at 17:25:47 (PDT)

The Si Yup (Toisan) people are the midway link between Cantonese and Hakka. Toisan language could have shared a common origin with the people of eastern Jiangxi (Gan dialect). Many words that begin in "t" for Cantonese and Mandarin, begin in "h" for Toisan and Hakka as it is in the Fuguang dialect in Jiangxi. Toisan could have been a migrant to Guangdong from eastern Jiangxi around the Song Dynasty.

The Cantonese were the first to arrive in Guangdong and got the best lands, then the Toisan, and followed by Hakka who got the worst ones. They came after the 9th cent. when Tang merchant/general, Huang Chao caused a great rebellion/slaugther in Guangzhou.

All the previous Han Chinese, Yueh and even Arab/Persian settlers in Guangdong may have perished in the Huang Chao massacres. But, that is not to say that their women were not spared. The later incoming Tang Chinese (Cantonese, Toisan, Hakka)absorbed whoever and whatever groups survived in Guangdong.
Cantonese, Toisan and Hakkas all have the same migration origin stories Friday, July 05, 2002 at 02:20:18 (PDT)

There is a strong relationship between the Hakkas, Toisan and Cantonese people through their language.

Meixian Hakka shares a 79% similarity with Guangzhou Cantonese compared to only 69% with Beijing Mandarin. This is based on comparison of cognates and basic words.

Guangzhou Cantonese share a 74% similarity with Beijing Mandarin, while Xiamen (southern Fukien) share 56% with Beijing Mandarin, Meixian Hakka share 69% with Beijing Mandarin and Suzhou (Shanghai dialect) share a 73% similarity with Beijing Mandarin. So, Cantonese are not so far removed from northerners as most people think. At least, not linguistically. And, the people (Cantonese and Hakka)who viewed each other as more or less "true" Chinese, are really the closest linguistic relatives. Very likely, they shared similar origins not too long ago. This linguistic evidence is again based on cognates and basic words.

SOURCE: Xu Tongqiang's "Historical Linguistics."
Cantonese, Toisan and Hakkas are really the same Friday, July 05, 2002 at 02:10:55 (PDT)

Some of you mentioned the origins of surname Li.

In 1135 BC, the last king of Shang Dynasty was challenged by his advisor, Ji Fa (the king of Zhou state) to a battle. Ji Fa wanted to take revenge for his deceased father (who was imprisoned for 3 years) and brother (who was killed by Shang king). The Shang king's advisor, Li Zheng advised him not to fight Ji Fa. The Shang king got furious and had him and his family killed. But, one son, Li Zhen escaped to a mountain. He survived off of plums in those mountains. So, he was so grateful that to this day, the Li surname the li (plum) have the same pronunciation in Chinese dialects.

The Daoist sage (Laotzu), the Han Dynasty general who conquered Central Asian (Li Guangli) and the Tang royal family are reputed to be from the same lineage and they claim this same surname.

I am sure the Koreans and Vietnamese got it the same too.
From a Chinese surname history book Friday, July 05, 2002 at 02:01:11 (PDT)

OK, so the DNA of Koreans is 82% Chinese and for Japanese it is 45%. I know the reasons. It lies in history.

Around the 4th century BC, 2 metal cultures merged in Manchuria. One was the iron of the Han Chinese and the other was the bronze of the Mongol/Tunguz. It spread on into Corea to the Taedong River basin. Then, it went on into Japan forming the Yayoi. But, why do Koreans have 82% compared to the Japanese 45%. Fact is simple. More Chinese invasions into Corea were to come on after this time while Japan never was invaded by the Han Chinese.
the truths Friday, July 05, 2002 at 01:49:50 (PDT)

Prior to Tang Dynasty, the only "real" Chinese (the Hans from the north) that were sent to Guangdong and Vietnam were what you call the ex-convicts, political exiles, etc. I don't know how large they maybe, but certainly not larger than the local populations.
George Thursday, July 04, 2002 at 15:51:31 (PDT)

The Chinese hold a position in Asia similar to that of the Turks in Middle East and Germans in Europe.

They will forever be feared and hated as traditional overlords of their respected regions.

One sees that right here on this board.

Look what all the Vietnamese, Thai, Korean, Filipino, Malayans, Indonesians, Japanese have to say about Chinese, our history, our political influences, etc.?

It is not a crime to be Chinese! Chinese would be the first to support a united Asia and a better image for the Asian male worldwide.

Infighting is what weakens us. The past cannot be corrected, but the present and future can!
Chinese are not monsters Thursday, July 04, 2002 at 15:44:24 (PDT)

This is about traditional Asian music.

Today I went to our university's East Asian percussion performance. I saw a wide assortment of East Asian drumming techniques.

I just want to know what the Korean style drumming is called. It looks kinda similar to taiko but the drums are smaller, sound is softer and usually played by females.

Chinese drums are usually not played solo. Usually it is accompanied by cymbals and souna (shawm).

But, there was one band who played the gu (drum) solo. The drum player only used his fingers and palms. Similar to what you hear on the Persian and Arabic music. Then, later in the background, there were 3 more Chinese guys playing another type of Chinese handdrum (like a large tambourine with jingles in the back). They too, played with their hands.

I was wondering if that is music played by Chinese Islamic minorities or Chinese themselves also play their drums with bare hands? It sounds quite good!

I play taiko and just wondering if I could also try out playing the same tunes with my bare hands.
Josh Thursday, July 04, 2002 at 14:17:10 (PDT)

To, the traveller;

*Geez, every Vietnamese knows the root of "Vietnam Giao Chi", and our dear General Viet doesn't...he is only aware of the city. Sadly, he didn't know why the town was built and named after that name, Giao Chi.*

Lol, just to say, why was a city named after a type of feet. Sounds rediculous to me...
lkajlksajlfjalk Thursday, July 04, 2002 at 12:05:36 (PDT)

To, The traveller;

Also you seem to be challenging me through external forms? Am i even viet you say? I am viet and i don't know this you would say, Sure if you like to say stuff like that then sure, enjoy insulting another person.

Giao Chi feet, as described by my father, is still around, which is common around peasants who DON'T wear shoes. (Again just to say, this is a discription from my own father, he was a student in the biology and literature secters of LaSan Ba Ninh (sp?) High School in Nha Trang. He got an education in vietnam, and my own grandfather was a captain for the Indochinese war, he has MANY friends who were influential figures before 1975, and i think he should still know some because 'uncle ho' fought on the same side at that time.) I SPECIFICALLY asked him about the muong (despite MY TRAVELS TO A MUONG VILLAGE) feet and do they resemble the
'giao chi' feet. He says definitely, their feet are spaced out alot, and ARE considered to have that feet. His explanation for todays feet is that because of shoes and some massages people do to get their feet into shoes. Also the fact that shoes are more readily available today.

You seem to deny that the muong have feet like that, and you say i called the muong dark skinned. I said that the guy in the picture was a dark muong, and half the muongs i know are dark probably because of sunburn and such because of excessive beach parties in USA. If you even try to read what i wrote you'll see what i actually wrote...
General Viet Wednesday, July 03, 2002 at 20:53:55 (PDT)

To, The traveller;

*General Viet, you may be a muong by your descriptive feet. Certainly not a real Viet, since Viet are know to have "Giao Chi" feet.*

Your saying like it's better to be 'known' to have something rather then to actually have it, NEXT TIME when you do go to vietnam GO to a beach. First try my way of doing things, then yours. Look at peoples feet, if they have my type of feet, ask them, are they muong. Go ahead and do it, they'll for sure be viet.

*Geez, every Vietnamese knows the root of "Vietnam Giao Chi",*

THERE IS more then 1 type of feet. The 'real' viets have all three of the types i posted. The delta people were around the delta region as a culture revolved around agriculture even before the mesopotamians, They were around since 22 thousand BC, and practiced agriculture since 17 thousand BC.

Also IF you go to vietnam, YOU WILL see that my feet, along with the normal feet comes at a close tie, but a definite win in different areas. In Hanoi, Hue, Haiphong, Nha Trang, Quang Ngai, and other northern cities i've been to, my feet reign supreme in number to the normal feet. BUT in the south, for example, Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon for you who don't know) has it at a lesser degree then the north does, BUT it is still there. MY statistics are brought from MY personal sitings. I counted people's feet when i was in vietnam two years ago, because as a child i noticed that no other ethnic either then viet had it, so i wanted to see how many viets actually had it. I did a little survey on my own, i counted TEN times each city mentioned above, in TEN different cites of each city. All together i counted 1200 feets (really doesn't take long) by myself, and i recorded it down to get an average at the end too. I did it kind of like a random sampling, i went to the beachs, the restaurants (people usually chose sandles over shoes due to the weather), museums, school yards, hospitals, gov't buildings etc... I did it due to the convenience because since i was visiting so many places, i just counted feet, it didn't take long actually, counting to 20 to see how many had my feet didn't take long. From what i remember, the statistics were 19 out of 20 in Hanoi, Haiphong and Quang Ngai after averaging out all of the totals for each city. Nha Trang had 18 out of 20, HCMC had 11 out of 20. I tried ba tri, but i gave up because i was to busy eating the fruits...

My statistics were based on what I SAW, i was about the only person i know that went around looking at people's feets. By no means i have no fetish for feets by the way, just that i was wondering on my feet because whenever i go to the beach and such in Canada and USA i would notice the feet aren't the same for chinese, whites, or blacks. Now that i know it's a normal thing, not by what others tell me, but by actually conducting my own experiment. Even when i did ask people, people said that it was normal. It's VERY common, actually even part of a fortunetelling thing. If you had my feet, fortune tellers say your mother dies first, normal then your father dies first. That is how COMMON it is...

"Giao Chi" feet could have been an attribute of many viets in the past, but i can say that i can doubt that even then, there were many types of feet. The Yueh moved south to vietnam as a minority group to the Delta people who obviously would be the majority, in the process of intermingling, anything could have happened. I don't see why you can't accept that...
General Viet Wednesday, July 03, 2002 at 20:35:29 (PDT)

Addendum to General Viet:

Royal blood line doesn't mean that one has to marry to Emperor's sons or daughter. It's through the royal's kins. Man, what have you been eating in America?

BTW, the Nguyen and the Trinh were related at the beginning.
The TraveLLer Wednesday, July 03, 2002 at 16:50:19 (PDT)

Going_back_in_time,

“Chinese records still showed that Viets in the middle and south of Vietnam had curly hair, and the Vietnamese history correctly recorded that southern Vietnamese kings possessed Indian names”.

Are you sure this piece of information is from Chinese record? I think it is from a Chinese fisherman who lost direction (battery in his compass was wet) on the way to Vietnam and went a little too far south. He ended up landing in Champa kingdom and thought that was Vietnam.

Get the facts, don't get wet Wednesday, July 03, 2002 at 14:30:59 (PDT)

To "Get straight to the topic!":

I'm not going to give you my point of view directly; however, I will relate my understanding based on this article written by this individual. If I give you my opinion, you probably rebutt it by saying that I'm biased.

Please click on: http://www.vninfos.com/vninfos/selection/histoire/Attraction_et_repulsion.html

First statement, mentioning "Le Quy Don":
"Vietnam�s major traditional institutions � the monarchy, the bureaucracy, the law code, and even the family � all resembled counterpart institutions in China. Yet, why was pre-mod�ern Vietnam not ever merely a �little China�? The answer seems to have been that the practi�cal Confucian humanism which had spread to Vietnam as part of Chinese classical civilization turned the Vietnamese upper class into an elite conscious of having a mission independent of that of Chinese rulers.[4] In fact, the study of history, which Chinese classical values encour�aged, inevitably directed Vietnamese attention to the wrongs they thought they had suffered at Chinese hands. Vietnamese intellectuals lived with the quasi certainty of a rich cultural conti�nuity thought to have been lost or destroyed. L� Qu� ��n, a gifted philosopher and historian of the 18th century, produced an inventory of lost Vietnamese books and archives, many of which had been destroyed or carried away by Chinese invaders. This was �injustice collect�ing� on a formidable scale: Vietnam�s book-loving mandarins had a most meticulous pre�served memory of a lost, or stolen, cultural patrimony.[5]"

Second statement, (Le Van Huu and some other historian that shaped the elite group in Vietnam to have some hatred against Chinese):

"Interaction with China and exposure to Chinese cultural imperialism had thus paradoxi�cally their importance in shaping Vietnamese self-iden�tity. So familiar were educated Viet�namese with Chinese literary materials that Chinese literature even supplied diplomatic weap�onry against the Chinese themselves.[6] The Vietnamese court had plenty of occasions for remind�ing the Northern court of the Chinese dogma that an ideal ruler should show a benign attitude towards distant people. Vietnamese memorials to China often alluded to the dogma as an argument for dissuading the Chinese emperors from infringing on Vietnamese sovereignty. On the other hand, one of the fundamental tasks assigned to Vietnamese traditional histori�ography had been to define the notion of an absolutely distinct Vietnamese kingdom, and of real as well as mythical fron�tiers intended to ward off forever China�s wish to resuscitate any legitimate pretension to interference. Commissioned by the king Trần Th�nh-t�ng to compile a history of �ại-Việt (completed in 1272), the historian L� Văn Hưu assembled several Chi�nese philosophi�cal and historical fragments, some of which he took out of their original con�text, to demon�strate the antiquity of the Vietnamese impe�rial institution, which Trần Th�i-t�ng and his heir were then defending against Kubilai Khan. The Chi�nese fragments were appropriated to defend the Vietnamese ruler�s independent status in the face of Chinese impe�rial pretensions; they were tailored to fit into Vietnamese history and to show that Vietnam�s tributary rela�tionship with China was a fiction.[7] L� Văn Hưu began precisely his work with the year 207 BC and the accomplishment of the founder of the Nam Việt [Nanyue] state, Triệu �� [Zhao Tuo], the first according to him to have estab�lished a southern empire that could take its place alongside the northern one:

�Triệu Vũ-đế [Zhao Wu-di], who developed the territory of our Việt realm, proclaiming himself emperor to stand up to the Han� was the first to initiate the imperial institution in our country. His achievement could be described as immense. The later sovereigns of Việt may imitate Triệu Vũ-đế in their task of buttressing the frontiers and strengthening the military and political or�ganization. It is by employing virtue in their relations with the neighbouring countries and be�nevolence for the preservation of their throne that they will succeed in protecting durably the national territory, since the northern men will have no reason to come and pry into their affairs.�[8]

In this way, L� Văn Hưu emphasized the legal and historical basis of Vietnamese independence. Zhao Tuo, the southern ruler resisting successfully northern aggression, became the sovereign legitimised by local cultural symbols before the Chinese provincial regime was introduced. Thus, he represented the end of the pre-Chinese indigenous royal succession; he also represented the beginning of imperial succession in an age when the concept of kingship became more firmly associated with the ability to resist Chinese belligerence. Overlooking the fact that Zhao Tuo was not Vietnamese by birth, Vietnamese historians recognized in him the spirit of their political survival and on that account claimed him as their own.[9] L� Văn Hưu�s choice of Triệu ��s Nam Việt as the starting point for Vietnamese history is thus directly related to his emphasis on �Vietnam�s equality� with China."

The rest you can read it yourself and tell me what you think.

********To General Viet:*************

Although not mentioned on any websites, there are some old biblical records in Chinese stating that the marriage among the royal family members to its territory was very common. I don't want to sound off scale here, but I believe it's the truth. Often, in the old days, when a bride married to someone, she would lose her last name then be considered as an outsider. Thus, this was never mentioned that the emperor's wife and his concubines were from an outside country. For example, the term "Ba Ngoai"(in pinying Chinese is Ba wai, although the Chinese used a different dialect to call their grandmother) which means "Ba" as lady and "Ngoai" as an outsider. Therefore, if any empress or concubine had something in pertaining to history, her name would be mentioned.

As far as empress "Nam Phuong", Annam was under the sovereignty of France...this era marked the end of the Sino-Vietnam royal relationship. The French, after 1884, would do anything to split Vietnam away from China, so that they could easily control Vietnam. Many old customs were prohibited; they butchered those who were against them and bringing Chinese culture to Vietnam. Even Chinese were being treated worse than ever in Vietnam, they had to have different access. The Romanized Vietnamese language was enacted to replace the Han language, and being enforced. It was not until 1945 that the Romanized letter was the official language of Vietnam.

During the French occupation, Chinese opera were confiscated, Han language was prohibited in some degree and resistances were beheaded. Old annals and history records were destroyed, so that colonization would be less difficult. French purpose of separating the Chinese culture to Vietnam was to control the rulers of Vietnam. In addition, they divided the three regions of Vietnam. That is why many rebelled the French during this era.

This may sound like a propaganda, but I believe the separation gave France the enjoyment in tranquility to rule Vietnam. Like I said, how could 10,000 French soldiers control 15 million people? Basically, it worked through separation. The 1950's Northern Vietnamese were hated by the southerners when they immigrated to the South. Actually, all three ethnically regions hated each other during this era.

Be well

The TraveLLer Wednesday, July 03, 2002 at 14:10:28 (PDT)

To, The TraveLLer;

The cham actually had high nose bridges and relatively big eyes, just to say. At that time if there was a lot of mixing with chams then we would have looked more appealing to the white people and considered hansome instead of ugly. That site is biased and there is no rebuting that can be done to a fact...

Also i see that your becoming primitive, a weaking kind of. Your resulting to insults instead of argument right now, that is a sign of weakness.
Yup Wednesday, July 03, 2002 at 14:09:24 (PDT)

To, Some facts;

Alot of vietnam's history is supported by archealogy. The legends did kind of outline a time of ruling that was as accurate as any written document can have, if you take out all the magic stuff. It outlines the reigns of most of the kings of the people of the Red River Delta. Just from escavations it can be proven that the modern vietnamese are a derivative of the Dong Son, who has been there for over 24 thousand years from now, also the fact that they have a very similar bone structure with us. Also considering that even origin stories originate from them, not many Yueh folklore is still in our literature but many Dong Son ones still exist. Literature is also transferred orally showing that it is passed down generation after generation. Thus showing the lineage of us to the Dong Son.

To, www.wronginfo.com;

Actually the cham were indian, just to say, the vietnamese at that time occupied northern vietnam around the areas of the Delta. But when the vietnamese moved down, influence from the cham were strong, and some things we can see come from them.

General Viet Wednesday, July 03, 2002 at 14:08:39 (PDT)

To, The TraveLLer;

Just to say, my grandfather was a captain for the vietnamese side during the Indochinese war. I have and did ask him about the Muong, they ARE referred to as mountainous people, NOT indians or nomads (people without homes, which the muongs did have). The muong ARE described to have the spread out feet, the same reason why they don't wear shoes much.

My feet is VERY common, GO ask a vietnamese person, just GO. Your in france, TONS of vietnamese to ask. Don't ask a historian about feet that still exists today, most of them didn't go travelling to see it for themselves. You bursting my bubble because i'm not viet? Lol, if i was muong i would be VERY proud to be a muong, i don't see why you state it like it's a bad thing in your other posts. Oh sorry to burst my bubble? Like i said, there are MANY more types of feets, many extinct, but many also still here. I don't want to argue on something i know to be true, i have nothing to deny. Also the truth that i have muong friends i see almost every day of my life, the fact that i live in a city where the vietnamese population is relatively large. I don't think i could, even if i wanted to, mistake one type with another. Muongs are VERY welly respected, i go to the beach with some muongs and a lot of viets, also a lot of chinese ethnic viets. The chinese have normal feet, the viets have mine, and the muong had the spread apart, but due to the wearing of shoes doesn't seem to be too showy as it was when i visited the people in vietnam... I visited a muong village with my friend, i've been to a village filled with muongs, have you? I doubt that with all the travels to china you have that you've even been to vietnam, nevertheless a muong village. My goal now is to go to a Cham village, i know there's one, but no one wants to go with me. I love to travel and see different cultures.

And sure send me the french version of the treaty that you said. I can't read french, BUT i can find someone who can.
General Viet Wednesday, July 03, 2002 at 13:42:56 (PDT)

To, Viet Flava;

I only say that the Muong had the feet spread apart because i am saying it through what i saw in my travels. Also from what i read years back.

The legend thing seems to be a legend, but it wasn't written down as a story till around 500 AD. BUT the Hung Kings were referred to by the Trung Sisters around 5 BC in her speech which IS recorded by the chinese in annals and such. From a conclusion i can see, the Hung Kings were probably a line of true kings (considering the close proximaty with the 100 Yueh tribes, and the Dong Son stories). Also the origin story could have been a story about the uniting of two different tribes, but due to being recorded so much later, the story was probably distorted the way it is to fairies and dragons. Originally it was probably different and presented a true story, the Trung sisters claimed lineage to the Hung royal blood and had many speeched refering to the loyalty to the Hung dynasty should never die.

General Viet Wednesday, July 03, 2002 at 13:32:40 (PDT)

To, The TraveLLer;

I know what i saw, i've been to vietnam for two months two years in a row starting from three years ago. I'm simply stating the truth...

*It's so funny but our GENERAL VIET claimed that the Muong were dark, indeed, they are not. Check out this website: http://www.vietnamtourism.com/e_pages/vietnam/54dantoc/muong.htm*

Sadly to say, i didn't call the muong, dark skinned. I stated that most that i know are light skinned, but for some reason there was a man on that picture that was dark skinned, who i stated probably was a result of sunburn, if you didn't even read my post then don't reply with non-sense and restating what i said (which is kind of funny). Your getting a bit pathetic in the insulting areas aren't you? Your already making a fool of yourself...

Actually from what i KNOW, the muong don't have the feet i have. I know this as a fact through having friends who ARE muong. They have the spread out feet one, the viets today as a majority either have normal feet, OR having the second one longer then the first (which through MY travels, and i can not deny my OWN eyes, that it did seem to be a majority thing in Haiphong, Hanoi, Hue, and Nha Trang. I stood there looking at peoples feet at the beach and when i was eating in a restaurant. I wouls sit there and count every time out of twenty how many people had feet like mine (because since childhood i've noticed the normal white and chinese feet and was trying to see if my feet were indeed common also the the vietnamese), from that i atleast did it ten times each city, doesn't take long, think of counting to twenty ten times, but i did it each in ten different areas of the city, and it stood true to me. The statistics i saw is what i saw.)

*Geez, every Vietnamese knows the root of "Vietnam Giao Chi", and our dear General Viet doesn't...he is only aware of the city. Sadly, he didn't know why the town was built and named after that name, Giao Chi.*

I wasn't aware that there WAS a city, only that there was a province called Giao Chi. In the past, confucious referred to the feet as, Yueh, not Giao Chi. I refer to them as Yueh also because the first time i read about it (not from a viet) it was from confucious who was also stating the reasons for their agility in the battle field. Giao Chi was a name given to the areas of northern vietnam as a province after it was conquered, i don't recall there to be a village in vietnam called Giao Chi.

*Then prove it. The Muong's in Vietnam were considered by the majority to be indians or nomads.*

As a fact they weren't considered nomads or even indians. Nomads roam the country sides, the muong had a civilization but up in the mountains. The indians were the cham, not the muong. Your telling him to prove it when you yourself can't prove your side of the claim.

*As for the "Nguyen", I don't know where you get the "Ruan" from.*

Hmmm, your getting VERY ignorant and arrogant, i thought i found someone intellegent to talk too.

http://www.yutopian.com/names/06/6Ruan179.html

That site proves or atleast supports everything i said about the Nguyen.

*Moreover, it was in the interest of the Vietnamese court to forfeit a part of its sovereignty in return for the guarantee that in the event of a revolt of its own subjects it would be able to enjoy China�s support*

Through this passage it said that we forfeited A PART not all of our sovereignty.

*in order to forestall China�s direct interference in their internal affairs*

The word interfere is an indication of an annoyance or unwanted outside catalyst. It also shows vietnams's independence in it's internal affairs area.

*for China would be held morally responsi�ble for the pro�tection of the legitimate dynasty she had recognized*
*Vietnamese court to forfeit a part of its sovereignty in return for the guarantee that in the event of a revolt of its own subjects it would be able to enjoy China�s support*

That is a sign of recognition NOT permission. China was like a body guard at that time from what i read, they paid tribute to ensure that incase of a revolt from the peasants the chinese would help.

*sov�er�eign Pronunciation Key (svr-n, svrn)
n.
One that exercises supreme, permanent authority, especially in a nation or other governmental unit, as*
*And on several occasions imperial arms had been sent to Viet�namese ter�ritory, at the request of the Vietnamese sovereign, to suppress local bandits.*

From that you can see that even then vietnam had a sovereign of it's own, a supreme ruler not the chinese ruler.

*su�ze�rain Pronunciation Key (szr-n, -z-rn)
n.
A nation that controls another nation in international affairs but allows it domestic sovereignty.*

It says that vietnam was under china's suzerainty. I see that, BUT it only means that the foreign affairs were controlled. Also i don't see any mentioning of the territory being of the other. A nation controlling another, that means that the independence is present, just that one is weaker and the other is controlling more. Through that passage it has said that china controlled the foreign affairs, BUT, throughout history never had it controlled the territory itself without a fight. If vietnam was already a territory of china, why did the Ming attack vietnam to take control of territory already theirs?

*from the Vietnamese of independent, �sovereign� (though in power terms unequal) states. Strict observance of the rules and courtesies of this relationship on the Vietnamese side contributed to peaceful coexistence.*

It in itself says that vietnam was independent but under anothers pressure to control. Through pressure has actions and words been heeded.

*Through this investiture, the Chinese Son of Heaven solemnly declared the one on whom he bestowed the title of �prince of the state of Annam� worthy through his loyalty and piety of governing his country. The investi�ture, there�fore, cre�ated dependency of some sort*

That seems to be an overexaggeration of the dependency of vietnam to the chinese. Throughout vietnamese history, the chinese only accepted who was king of vietnam to be king. Never have they actually put someone out of the blue onto the throne. Dynasties like the Le, Ngo, Tran, Tay Son etc... Became ruler of vietnam through there own talent, china even tried to take the vietnamese territory from them, but on those dynasties they have not succeeded. In peking, it only seems that the chinese only confirmed who was ruler, even if he had a grudge against the guy he couldn't have done anything about it, his words are only symbolic. Rulers like Le Loi, Ngo Quynh, Nguyen Hue etc... states this, the chinese had NO power over a man like Nguyen Hue, and could not have forced him off the throne, so instead they crowned him, that in itself show's that the chinese courts power were ONLY ceremonial and symbolic with no actual power over vietnam.

*king Gia long. Hell, during the chinese evacuation to Vietnam during the wars, some changed their last name to "Nguyen" to make easy for survival.*

What your saying i don't know, BUT i know that my own grandpa fought against the french to help Bao Dai, his cousin. I don't know how far off of a cousin, but probably VERY far off. I'm not from the line of Minh Mang but from one of the other brothers of Minh Mang. In the royal bloodline there ARE over 2000 descendents from Gia Long, counting ONLY his direct descendents, as in his children, then his childrens children (i think that's also counting the wives and husbands who through marriage joined the family). In documents my family lineage book is in vietnam, shared by over a thousand people. It's not actually mine, and it's actually in a shrine devoted to the Nguyen family. YOU YOURSELF can go check it out, since you seem to travel as much as me you'll have no problem seeing that the thing is a HUGE novel...

General Viet Wednesday, July 03, 2002 at 13:27:03 (PDT)

rare stuff:

the Ainus possess Caucasian characteristic: light-skinned, pronounced double eyelids, prominent nose, a lot of body hair. They look not much different from Russians. The Ainus who look mongoloid are mixed with Japanese.
k Wednesday, July 03, 2002 at 13:26:40 (PDT)

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