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GOLDSEA |
ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
IS THE AA GENDER DIVIDE REAL?
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:05:32 PM)
sian American women are abandoning AA men by the millions. Young AA women seek out any race of men but their own. Women like Amy Tan write books and make movies that dump on AA men and glorify Asian women in relationships with white men.
That's the perception of many AA men.
On what do they blame this state of affairs? Brainwashing by media that play up white men while cutting Asian men off at the knees. Desire for payback by AA women who feel slighted by their families and Asian society. Large numbers of non-Asian men with blind fetishes for Asian women. Some even acknowledge that Asian men are often too fixed in their ideas of how a woman should look and behave, causing many AF to feel devalued.
Other Asian Americans see AF outmarriage rates as merely a natural state of affairs for a 4% minority population that includes many recent immigrants. The outmarriage gender gap will narrow as growing Asian population centers provide ready access to bigger pools of singles. Besides outmarriage isn't the same as rejecting one's racial identity, they argue. Many AF who outmarry retain strong identification with their Asian identity.
Is there really an Asian American gender divide? Is so, what's behind it? If not, what's behind the perception?
This interactive article is closed to new input.
Discussions posted during the past year remain available for browsing.
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
I don't know about you guys, but I'm keeping it Real. I'm Chinese (not mixed). My girlfriend is Chinese (she's not mixed either). I prefer it that way.
Am I the "stereotypical" Asian guy who "dominates" his girlfriend? Hell no!!! It's probably the other way around, if you ask her friends and my friends.
I cook for her. I clean her apartment (floors, walls, kitchen, shower and toilet). I do her laundry. I separate the colors the way she wants it. I fold her clothes the way she wants it. I tune up her car. Having spent 10 years in the Boy Scouts and 4 years as a Company Grade Officer in the U.S. Marine Corps, I taught her all that I know about living and surviving in the outdoors. I taught her how to shoot a weapon safely and properly. Piss-ass drunk from girls-night-out? I give her a piggy-back ride home...when she's puking all over me. When it's late, I go pick her up from work. When she's sick, if it's western medicine that she wants, I go buy it. If she wants a Chinese medicine, I make it. Hole in the wall? I patch it up. Broken light? Busted fuse? Who does she call? Me, Ah Bun, the ABC!! Do I complain? Hell no!!! I LIKE to do those things for her.
Amy Tan and the "Joy Luck Club"? Please!!! That woman needs to get a clue! When my girlfriend needs cash, I quietly stuff money into her pockets before she sets out on her day!
My views on sell-outs? I used to care, but I don't anymore. Do some non-Asians have an Asian fetish? Hell yes!!! I was walking with my friend Mary once in Manhattan. As we were exciting the subway station, we noticed a White guy's eyes pop open and his jaw drop upon sight of her (yes, my friend is all that). Right behind this White guy, who was gawking at Mary, was his Asian wife struggling with their 3 kids and an arm-full of grocery. No, her jaw didn't drop and her eyes didn't pop out. She looked miserable. She was too busy struggling with the 3 kids and the grocery to notice that her husband was in lust and Asian fetish heaven. Well, to each their own. You wanted it, you got it. Don't complain, live with the decisions you've made in your life. That poor woman "became" the sterotypical Asian woman. Think about that.
BTW, in case you're wondering, "Oh, maybe it's because you're ABC." Yes, I am. But, I tend to prefer Fobby girls. I love to watch Chinese movies (both the soaps and the regular films). I love to bust out in Cantonese with my friends. I love karaoke. I love Aaron. I love Andy. I love Kelly. I love Jay. I love Richie. I absolutely love Sammi!!! And, I love Ekin's style! I love Asian food...particularly my parent's cooking.
One more thing, I was a sell-out myself...until I got to my Mid-20s and realized that I was missing out on something. You see, I realized that I could love a girl with ALL of my heart but if you don't share a similar background/culture/ upbringing, you're really missing out on the final piece of the puzzle. Trust me, I was there once. I was engaged to an Italian woman (she asked me to marry her). Looking back, I'm glad I said "no." Even though I loved her deeply, it was not the time for me. Fast forward to the present. I'm with my current girlfriend...soon to be fiancee (I asked her to marry me). She's Chinese...like me. You never realize that there's a glass wall between two people in love until you have a relationship with someone from your own culture/background/upbringing. All of a sudden, to find out that, "Wow, how is that possible? How can I love someone more than what I had previously?" That glass wall suddenly disappeared. I don't have the answer to that. You just have to experience it for yourself to find out.
I've finally come full-circle and I've come "home." It was a pleasant surprise. :)
Born Again Chinese (BAC)
Tuesday, December 10, 2002 at 01:00:34 (PST)
[209.246.64.201]
To: eastern-european girl
Comments inline. Please take the ellipses as full quotes of your post in good faith, used for the sole purpose of making the length of this post more bearable.
“When I said...
...So. Don't crucify me over this mistake.”
No, you’re the one crucifying me.
“Also to Repost (I forgot to ask this in my previous message): why are you making references to Rob's "non-black hair"???...
...Ever heard of "Snowhite"? Ok, that's all I have to say.”
Boy, this is relevant. Fine. Whatever. Maybe he’s bald. Maybe he’s Snow White. I don’t know. So shave the hair off and keep the “white skin.”
“I don't feel much like writing, even less discussing this matter, but I'll respond to your message just for the sake of understanding.”
Thank you for the gesture of spending your time writing to me despite your not feeling like it. Rest assured that this is as tiresome for me as it is for you.
”I think there are several ways of interpreting a text, some of which may not be accurate with the original meaning that it meant to put forward. If you study CLS...
...(I hope that didn't confuse you too much...)”
No, I majored in engineering, and I used my elective units on GPA-boosters like Beginning Chinese 1A/B. I have only had the limited experience of business and technical writing for the past 14 years in the corporate environment since I graduated from college and was a contributing author to an Osborne/McGraw-Hill title. I hope this puts me on par with a semester of CLS.
“Now, after this brief academic diversion, let's return to what Rob said: "Asian women are free to date only Asian men--I believe in a woman's right to choose--but I'm not sure if I would call that open minded."...
...He's not implying here one single individual's choice but the culturally-implicated practices as a whole.”
Ok, one man speaking for “culturally-implicated practices as a whole”? Is this over-generalizing or what? I don’t know if I should laugh or go blind. First of all, who is any one person the expert in any culture? Would you, or could you, speak for then entire Asian culture as a whole? Second, my point was never to contest what the Asian culture is or is not. My questions were: “She is Asian, and will only date white men. So you call her open-minded, right? But if she were to only date Asian men, then she is not open-minded, by your standards, right?” Is this logic or is this hypocrisy?
“So Rob might not like the fact that in some conservative Asian households...
...Do you get my point Repost? I think you're overgeneralising Rob's assumption.”
Over-generalizing what? I didn’t write anything in the likes of “bad white men over good Asian men” or “family forced choices” or “the big bad wolf” or “blah blah blah” etc. etc. etc. – other writers wrote this. Not me. If you have beef with them on this, write to them and quote them.
“I don't think that Rob is as bad as many people here describe him to be...
...That's just a feeling that I get.”
I am not “many people” – I am just Repost. I’m all for open discussion, but this paragraph again has nothing to do with me. I sign off all my posts with “Repost” and no other pseudonym. If you have beef with other writers, write to and quote them. I don’t know why you are always expressing your frustration of what other writers have written – not what I’ve written – towards me, of all Asian men here. Is it because I don’t call all Asian women sellouts? Or that I don’t spew garbage like telling my Asian brothers to desert Asian women for white women? Yes, this is The Gender Divide, but is hating Asian women and kissing up to white women the admission to this theatre?
I’ve given you’re the courtesy of answering your posts point-by-point. All I ask for is this: In your original post to me, you said I am “taking Rob's words out of context, and then it's easy to make them suitable to how you want to interpret his post.” Will you give me the courtesy by supporting your accusation, point-by-point? If you want to refute anything I wrote, please quote me and then shoot me down. Otherwise, you’re doing nothing different from what you accuse me of: over-generalizing.
I reaffirm my initial assertion: For someone like Rob to claim that
1. Asian women who only date white men are open-minded, and
2. Asian women who only date Asian men are not open-minded
is hypocritical, self-serving, and worst of all, a total insult to Asian women who, out of their own free will, choose to be with an Asian man. Amidst all the pressure to date white in order to be considered “open-minded” by men such as Rob, there are many Asian women who are open-minded enough to choose, out of their own free will, to be with an Asian man. Yes, they exist and even though white men like Rob don’t respect them, many Asian men do respect them.
Boy, I sure hope the Editor doesn’t think this post is irrelevant, obscene, hateful, repetitive, illiterate or maliciously disruptive.
Repost
Tuesday, December 10, 2002 at 00:32:09 (PST)
[66.92.1.200]
[Let's see here... Nope. --Ed]
I want to make it clear that in my old posts, I didn’t intend so stand up for anyone. The reason i said whast i said is i find so many absurdity in Rob’s story. I don’t confirm its authenticity ( or lack thereof)…and some ppl also think this way. and suppose that if the story is true, than Rob’s g/f behavior is hard to accept. (Not that i stand up for any AM or any other, it is rather an objective judgement from a female.)
azn angel
Monday, December 09, 2002 at 21:23:13 (PST)
[61.11.245.7]
actually i truly think Rob's story has so many contradicitons and unbelievable details. I won't give any assertion but i can't help think of the story in this way. Most perceptive people on this board think so, even the females who normally would have no problem judging the story objectively. But this is just the internet...wether the story is true or not, who cares.
azn angel
Monday, December 09, 2002 at 20:24:25 (PST)
[61.11.245.7]
eastern european girl: great response but there are some of your points i 'd like to address:
"Also to Repost (I forgot to ask this in my previous message): why are you making references to Rob's "non-black hair"??? How do you know that his hair isn't black? And what does that have to do with this issue? There are plenty of white people who have black hair, some even have dark-coloured eyes, but they are still considered to be "white". "
eastern european girl, great post, but i don't see why you could misunderstand his points. Non-black hair" refer to his being non asian. ANd it doesn't refer specifically to his hair color, eye color. It is just a way of expression, meant in a figurative wway.I think it is pretty much like getting bogged down w/ a detail that is irrelevant and inconsequential compared to the core issue.
"And I also have a feeling that many of the extremely over-critical people here can't imagine standing up for a person or an issue that's seemingly unrelated to them if they weren't in the end to get some kind of profit out ot it. That's just a feeling that I get."
This is what i think it ironic.I'm sorry but I think you are also "really over critical" for criticizing some people as 'extremely over -critical' for voicing out what they think. ANd is this issue also seemingly unrelated to you as well? On the scratch surface, it seems you might even be more 'unrelated' to this issue than those other people.And you voiced out your opinions, standing up for Rob. Could it be in the end you got some profit out of it? Does one have to be closely related to an issue to be able to voice out what they think? Im my humble opinion, your point is kind of misleading.
maxdacat: on the contrary, I think the comment of AF selling out as main reason for gender divide is even more cliche and boring....This is what is old story. People always scracth things on the surface w/o having an in-depth look at the problem. And more importantly, To begin with, Is the gender divide really as serious as people make it out to be? As for me, I think not.
azn angel
Monday, December 09, 2002 at 20:15:32 (PST)
[61.11.245.7]
It doesn't matter. Sellout or not. In most cases, women have to make a choice especially when they don't know when will it be their next opportunity for a man. For men, there will be guys who will love what they get.
And there will the loser guys who will get what is the most easiest for them. Why do you think there are plenty of mail order brides from all over the world here in America.
And why do these folks bother to argue with Rob. He continues to write/lie
his way out in order to distract these folks from the fact he is an exposed
liar. Folks are in denial so they can prove their point or refute against
Rob's bulls*** views. Rob's 'opened-mindeness' talk is plain
hypocritical.
Like what "Stop That Crap" said, there many "angry white males" who can't stand minorities, the diversity that's diluting their American traditional values, and the white women who marry outside. Where's the open-mindedness
there? Most cases, a lot of loser white males 'sellout' (or chicken out against open minded white women) go after the easier Asian women. And many of them are here checking out Goldsea and other Asian websites. Good point "Stop That Crap" about loser Terry Nichols crying his way to a gurantee, no problem, obedient mail ordered wife (but too late he's a lifer now bedding with BIG demanding men) and about Rob's claim of Lisa's preference of WM for physical reasons when Rob is just a 5'7", 140 pound prototype of Terry Nichols. My little brother in the 8th grade is even bigger then Rob. A boy! These are the types of lies Rob had wrote and readers had exposed while there are Rob's 'believers' who'll trust his words, of course, these believer have their agenda (like protecting Rob against what others have exposed him to be, a liar and loser.)
Go away Rob. If you wanted to view your point do so honestly and that's what you should had done. You shouldn't had made up lies that anyone who is not stupid and naive, is able to catch.
And now you lose your creditibility. And worse yet, you make up stereotype and assertions about what is 'truth'. If you had an opinion, say so, don't say it is the truth.
"Eyes Wide Open" is right, in this
internet world where no sees each other, there will always be lots of BSs and liars.
Doubting Thomas, again
Monday, December 09, 2002 at 20:06:58 (PST)
[66.42.0.4]
No Mo JLC,
I agree with your sentiments but how many asian guys would actually act on their own desires if it meant going against their parents wishes.....you can say don't believe the hype but there must be some truth there
i think its great if your mom encourages you to cast a wide dating net i just feel sorry for other AM's who cannot exercise true self determination
maxdacat
Monday, December 09, 2002 at 17:33:00 (PST)
[129.223.37.13]
Important public service announcement to all:
Recent surveys have shown that a large number of females of Asiatic descent have contracted a dangerous abnormal social condition. With the increasing quantity of people exhibiting symptoms of the syndrome, scientists have decided that it's time to give a name to said disorder.
Subjects with this affliction may have all or some of the following symptoms:
1. When socializing in a group with mixed demographics, including straight Asian men, subjects go out of their way to avoid eye contact with said men
2. Likes to chat up any Asian woman, and are indiscriminate when befriending gay Asian males
3. Often wears monochromatic long sleeve shirts with sleeves rolled midway up on forearms, ie. light blue, white, maroon. Rarely wears vividly colorful clothes of many colors
4. When walking past strangers on the street who appear to be males of Asiatic stock, goes out of way not to make eye contact with said Asian men (looks away, down, up, straight ahead, etc)
5. Minimal conversation with heterosexual Asian men during work, school, etc
After careful deliberation, the brain trust has decided to christen this irrational fear Asianmenphobia. It is contagious if one is around someone afflicted for long, but thankfully it's treatable with heavy doses of Awareness and Enlightenment. Researchers have high hopes that it can even one day be prevented, with a Self-Esteem vaccine currently in development.
~Asianmenphobia~
Only Half Joking, Thomas
Monday, December 09, 2002 at 16:13:01 (PST)
[129.81.147.133]
From my experiences, I think this problem starts at a young age. I am seventeen and this summer when I went to Stanford camp I met many students from around the country. There was one Asian girl who was adamant in that she will never date asian guys. Some how, for her she feels it almost seemed like she was showing off the fact. For her, it seemed that by doing so she would appear "better" than the other girls. Needless to say, I lost all respect for her. Even though I spent my childhood in the Midwest with mostly white friends, I am a firm believer in the fact that your culture is something that you should be proud off. If one is able to shrug off their nationality like the girl, it seems like the whole basis of her judgement on the point of life needs a revamp. Something else to note is that she was a very superficial girl and celebrated her promiscuity with "white guys". Of course, this doesn't happen in most asian women, but if sixteen year old asian women are turning into this, we must ask why...
Midwest Student
nicechineseguy@hotmail.com
Monday, December 09, 2002 at 15:04:31 (PST)
[12.216.243.49]
And I also have a feeling that many of the extremely over-critical people here can't imagine standing up for a person or an issue that's seemingly unrelated to them if they weren't in the end to get some kind of profit out ot it. That's just a feeling that I get.
Now, I wonder if the Editor will post my message????
eastern-european girl
What is Your point? I really don't understand? THis is, after all an issue related to Rob and unrelated to evry other one on this board. If some people are critical to a problem that bear no relation, connection to them w/o them getting any profit out of it, the true story comes to light. Not so many people could be critical in the time. the unrelated ppl tend to the most unbiased judges of the situation.
Also, you didn't make any valid point when you say some people avoid the issue. Some people (oh please, repost)...adress the issue very well.
Blurry...
Monday, December 09, 2002 at 14:20:47 (PST)
[61.11.245.7]
TK Chang made some valid and legitimate points. In addition, the schism comes from the abuse of the phrase "open-minded" by those in the type of interracial relationships described by TK Chang. Those folks entered interracial relationships with ulterior motives, seeking better social status, fulfilling their fetishes, or simply evading their racial identities.
FOP
Monday, December 09, 2002 at 10:11:33 (PST)
[65.147.90.58]
T'K Chang,
I think you really put your finger on it with your analysis......i've heard lots of gender divide explanations that use the old excuse of media stereotypes etc etc blah blah blah
I hear a lot of angst ridden AM's blaming white guys dating asian girls for all their problems.....i'm sure they might learn something if they read what you wrote (without letting their "blood boil" of course).
Glad to hear someone tell it how it is.
maxdacat
Sunday, December 08, 2002 at 19:09:03 (PST)
[129.223.37.13]
I guess I should fix something in my post.
When I said "...some conservative Asian parents would rather see their daughters marry any Asian guy, even if he had many negative qualities, over a good white guy, even if he happened to have many positive qualities, let's say more than the negative Asian guy..." I didn't mean to imply that ALL Asian males are negative. I meant just ONE negative Asian guy. Substitute one, particular, certain, or whatever corresponding synonym in front of the "negative Asian guy". I don't mean to imply that all Asian men are negative, ok? But some are, just like there are negative guys in every race. So. Don't crucify me over this mistake.
Also to Repost (I forgot to ask this in my previous message): why are you making references to Rob's "non-black hair"??? How do you know that his hair isn't black? And what does that have to do with this issue? There are plenty of white people who have black hair, some even have dark-coloured eyes, but they are still considered to be "white". I've personally met some people like that, they might even had a shade lighter skin then me although I on the other hand don't have black hair. But we are still "white". Ever heard of "Snowhite"? Ok, that's all I have to say.
eastern-european girl
Sunday, December 08, 2002 at 18:18:09 (PST)
[64.228.62.11]
You guys, don't believe that hype about Asian men carrying the bloodlines and expected to marry within the race and ethnicity. It is false and totally unfair to the Asian parents (many of whom are open minded and liberal) and to Asian culture for saying that. I know a lot of Asian mothers who tell their sons to go after white and Hispanic girls they are interested in. My mom is one example. She wouldn't mind if the daughter-in-law ain't Chinese because they would not be able to communicate too much and thus reduces the prospects of eventual arguements.
The problem is that it takes 2 to click. Asian men needs to be more aggressive and adamant if they are searching for a non-Asian girl and interest and attraction coming from non-AFs can help a lot too. Rejection is part of the game, but you will never win if you have never experienced it.
No mo Joy Luck Club
Sunday, December 08, 2002 at 17:34:50 (PST)
[64.130.235.33]
To "Repost"
I don't feel much like writing, even less discussing this matter, but I'll respond to your message just for the sake of understanding.
I think there are several ways of interpreting a text, some of which may not be accurate with the original meaning that it meant to put forward. If you study CLS (critical language study), or sociolinguistics, you'll learn that there are actually two interpretations in a text - (1) that of the "producer" (writer) of the text who, in his writing of the text, is interpreting a real-world situation as he/she sees it, and (2) that of the "receiver" (reader) of the text who in his reading of it forms a certain interpretation of the text in his/her mind. (I hope that didn't confuse you too much...) Now, after this brief academic diversion, let's return to what Rob said: "Asian women are free to date only Asian men--I believe in a woman's right to choose--but I'm not sure if I would call that open minded." If you look at what he wrote before,
"Asian women are free to date only Asian men", I think he is referring to that particular social/cultural/ethnic/race/traditional/ whatever-you-want-to-call-it custom. He's not implying here one single individual's choice but the culturally-implicated practices as a whole.
So Rob might not like the fact that in some conservative Asian households women are pressured to only marry an Asian man, without having "the right to choose". In fact, the way he sees it may be quite similar to the way many readers here see it "that some Asian women would prefer a fat, old, unsucessfull etc. white guy over a good-looking, young, successful etc. Asian guy". So Rob might see this as some conservative Asian parents would rather see their daughters marry any Asian guy, even if he had many negative qualities, over a good white guy, even if he happened to have many positive qualities, let's say more than the negative Asian guy, just because the Asian guy would be "Asian". Do you get my point Repost? I think you're overgeneralising Rob's assumption.
I don't think that Rob is as bad as many people here describe him to be. I don't think that Rob is making up his story. When I read what he writes, he seems to me to be genuine, having a genuine concern over an issue that's important to him. I don't think that he's trying to purposely insult Asians - actually all of his messages have been written in a careful (I can't think of a better word right now) tone, much better than many people who attacked him here. The reason I think that many readers can't understand the way he feels is that they can't imagine a situation from a perspective that's different from their own. Just like when people tell me "I won't bother to explain it to you because you're white" (the underlying assumption there is that therefore I wouldn't be able to understand; btw someone told me that in this website, though those were not her exact words), well I think that they can't imagine that someone who is of a different race than Asian, specifically someone who is white, may see this issue differently, even though that person's view might still have some legitimate points. And so they say that the story was made up, in order that they wouldn't have to look at the real issue and evaluate it critically and objectively. And also, so they don't lose their ground. And I also have a feeling that many of the extremely over-critical people here can't imagine standing up for a person or an issue that's seemingly unrelated to them if they weren't in the end to get some kind of profit out ot it. That's just a feeling that I get.
Now, I wonder if the Editor will post my message????
eastern-european girl
Sunday, December 08, 2002 at 17:13:54 (PST)
[64.228.57.79]
[Why shouldn't we? Your post isn't irrelevant, obscene, hateful, repetitive, illiterate or maliciously disruptive. --Ed]
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