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ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
IS THE AA GENDER DIVIDE REAL?
(Updated
Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:05:30 PM)
sian American women are abandoning AA men by the millions. Young AA women seek out any race of men but their own. Women like Amy Tan write books and make movies that dump on AA men and glorify Asian women in relationships with white men.
That's the perception of many AA men.
On what do they blame this state of affairs? Brainwashing by media that play up white men while cutting Asian men off at the knees. Desire for payback by AA women who feel slighted by their families and Asian society. Large numbers of non-Asian men with blind fetishes for Asian women. Some even acknowledge that Asian men are often too fixed in their ideas of how a woman should look and behave, causing many AF to feel devalued.
Other Asian Americans see AF outmarriage rates as merely a natural state of affairs for a 4% minority population that includes many recent immigrants. The outmarriage gender gap will narrow as growing Asian population centers provide ready access to bigger pools of singles. Besides outmarriage isn't the same as rejecting one's racial identity, they argue. Many AF who outmarry retain strong identification with their Asian identity.
Is there really an Asian American gender divide? Is so, what's behind it? If not, what's behind the perception?
This interactive article is closed to new input.
Discussions posted during the past year remain available for browsing.
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
To: eastern-european girl
Rest assured that I am not offended; I’m not the one who - and please excuse my impersonation if I get it wrong - writes with CAPS LIKE THIS or ends my sentences with exclamation marks like this!!!!! I’m not going to write to your entire post as 1) others have collectively addressed all your points in your posts multiple times, and 2) I don’t want readers here to think I’m bullying a college student. There’s only one point I’ll reiterate. I hope the Editor will forgive me for reiterating it, as this is the point I feel deeply about.
“You also said: "...are you saying that Asian women who do not date white men are not open-minded? That the only way you would consider an Asian woman to be open-minded is if they date white men?" Sorry, this interpretation to me seems flawed.”
Earth to eastern-european girl, do you copy? This is what he wrote (December 04, 2002 at 23:28:31), which you also quoted: “Asian women are free to date only Asian men--I believe in a woman's right to choose--but I'm not sure if I would call that open minded.” Did he not answer my question affirmatively? Hello? The porch light appears to be on.
To call all Asian women who choose to only be with Asian men closed-minded is an insult to them. No, not only that. It’s an insult to the Asian men these women are with. Semantics or not, when someone summarily calls a group of people closed-minded based solely on dating preference, it’s prejudiced and insulting. I don’t go around saying “white guys” this and “white guys” that. To do so will include guys like Hank with guys like Rob, all rolled into the same batch. I'm sure Hank would cringe if he reads the last sentence.
“I hope you are better able to understand what I meant… though I think that if you'll come about with the same interpretations of my message as in your last post, it would be better to stop this discussion between me and you, as I can see it will lead to nowhere. Bye.”
That’s fine. I’ll let you have the last word on all your other points until your next scheduled reentry. Maybe there's a difference between your CLS and my, well, I don’t have a hip acronym for it, but let’s call it "trench-style writing." Fact is, there are many astute readers here I share the same views with. Don’t just read my posts. Read the posts from everyone else. I am not the lone voice in these opinions. So either you’re right and we are wrong, or could the opposite be true, that you’re wrong and we are right?
As for the age thing, no offense taken. A decade ago when I was your age, I, too, thought I knew everything. I couldn’t fathom how being 34 can be that different. But the older I got, the more I know; the more I know, the more I realize I didn’t know.
And tomorrow, I'll know more than I know today, in the same way as I know today more than I knew when I was your age.
Repost
Thursday, December 12, 2002 at 01:31:53 (PST)
[66.92.1.200]
To: maxdacat
Chung, one of America's most famous anchorwomen, not only shuns invitations to speak at Asian American conferences and declines to support Asian American advocacy groups, she has joked about going to China and finding that all of the relatives looked the same.”
Good insight to the challenges proud Asian sisters like the author face every day. If we don’t stand by these sisters, who will?
Repost
Thursday, December 12, 2002 at 01:31:31 (PST)
[66.92.1.200]
To Curious1 (and a Stupid1 also):
From your reply to BAC, "I think that's great and all but I also think that two people of different cultures/upbringings can be very happy together and love each other totally. I am in a mixed relationship and I can love my significant other as much as I could someone of my own race/culture/
upbringing. As a matter of fact, it's nice and exciting that we can learn
from each other's cultures. It can possibly add even more to a relationship
I think. Sure you have something in common there but having some
differences can be great too. Just don't assume 2 people of different backgrounds can't love totally."
I thought it doesn't matter what they are as long as they are in LOVE with
each other. If you are so excited about new things that will improve on your
relationship, why don't you try dating/mating your mother/father, your pet dog, or a tree trunk. Let us know how nice it is and how much you love it.
From your reply to No mo Joy Luck Club,"I have found many Asians to be
prejudiced towards blacks and whites but moreso even towards blacks when
they aren't even the ones that have been as prejudiced against Asians.
Which leads me to believe that they are only kissing up to whites to "get ahead"
in this society, not because these people are overly good to them. If your
mother is so liberal, would she be as accepting if your choice for a mate
was black? If not, sorry, she's still prejudiced but just a little more
specific in her racism, that's all."
I agreed with you that I don't know of any parents telling their kids to
marry outside of their race. I think it's natural for parents to desire
(not implying pressure) that their kids marry within. It's a true fact that
every race has prejudice/stereotypes. It's only when barriers and perceptions are broken down when one meets and gets to know someone else individually and in person. And it's unfortunately that most of the crimes and high profile problems are related to inner city poor blacks. It's the fear of these types of blacks that parents think that maybe one them will end up with one of their kids.
Poor immigrants Asians families here where I lived are scared from the past years where Asian schoolkids are bullied at schools but the black educators explain that the Asian kids are just not street smart and its not a race issue and old Asian women are systematically robbed near the public bus stops but black bureaucrats explain that the old Asian women are just not street smart and its not a race issue. So that's why there are fear and intimidation still going on. Sure all races get along and behave when they are in a work, college, large public, or surburban environment. But poor immigrant Asians living in the lower income bracket areas comes across intolerances everyday like other races. These blacks in public scene put on a face of tolerance and most do. But behind the scenes there are a good number who resent the fact that the hard working poor immigrant Asians are movng into their neighboors and will take whatever chances they have in abusing the lesser Asians. This is the facts of life living in poor inner city areas and where issues remain unsolved. To say blacks aren't as prejudiced against Asians is such a BS lie. Stop patronizing yourself as a
goody goody political correct person. If you are such a good person why
don't you take all the homeless into your home. Let me know if you will
do it. People have more common sense then your BS. You should be the Stupid1
instead of a Curious1.
To BAC and No mo Joy Luck Club: CuriousAndStupid1 is such a BS person
trying to come across as an enlightened one. Don't be fooled by his innocent looking 'Curious1' tag and nice toned writing. He/she/it is sh*tting on what you wrote with BS.
Be real you BS stupid1
Thursday, December 12, 2002 at 00:29:40 (PST)
[67.119.3.119]
and some I imagine may gladly pick out a mistake like that to accuse me of being racist etc
eastern european girl, sorry for making you waste alittle time reading this, but as far as i can see, no one here imply or might even think you are racist! If you think so you are getting a little too sensitive. in your posts you seem to adress some people or issues that are not very direct and it makes me wonder if you are implying i 'gladly pick out a mistake to imagine you are racist'. If i'm wrong then fine, but If that is the case, i would say no way did i or anyone else think your racist and i much prefer a straightforward type of response that exhibits the courage to adress directly the person you refer to. No one imagine you as racist so plz don't assume ill of other people.
Hank Lewis: Janet Chang Hawkins?
Repost:
You're putting words out of my mouth. That is the clear truth i see on this board as well.
azn angel
Wednesday, December 11, 2002 at 22:46:34 (PST)
[61.11.245.7]
I don't understand why it is that some people (oddly enough, usually non-Asian women) are so quick to jump on anyone who professes to be in a loving relationship with someone of the same race.
Let's knock down those walls full of PC rhetoric.
I applaud BAC for his post.
It isn't often on this site that we see an Asian man happy to tell the world how much he adores his lady.
So, he's found that having a mutual cultural upbringing gives him a complete sense of wellbeing that he lacked previously.
Those of you in interracial relationships may disagree, but he is happy.
And we should be happy for him.
Nisei
Wednesday, December 11, 2002 at 21:01:53 (PST)
[64.130.204.9]
don't speak for all AM:
"TK Chang, you say that Asian male are pressured to marry within their own race...I don't agree...because you want to make an excuse for not dating or marrying outside your race."
On the contrary, I have dated and enjoy dating women outside my race. Personally, I find White and Latin women to be more physically attractive (guys, do not get all fired up now; it is just an opinion.)
However, I know this to be a FACT: MANY if not MOST Asian parents want their sons to date within their races. I would even go a step further to assert this: many if not most Asian parents prefer their sons to date within their own ETHNICITY (e.g., Chinese, Japanese, Korean.) That is why we do not see to as many "mixed" Asians (e.g., Chinese/Japanese, Korean/Vietnamese) as "mixed" Whites (e.g., French/Italian, Irish/Spanish.)
Asian parents do not outright stop their sons from dating or marrying non-Asian women (but I know a few who do.) Asian parents make their preference for Asian daughter-in-law's obviously clear to their sons by making many subtle suggestions: inserting little "unintentional" remarks here and there during conversations, making little "unintentional" gestures, and etc. I believe I do not have to explain that in here; As Asian men, we know better than everyone else how our Asian parents condition and program us to go for Asian women to fulfill certain roles and obligations.
"The WM must have something special that I don't have like money, power, prestige, education,..."
And, of course, the inherent racial status.
For an Asian man who has to specify and rationalize that White men have so many qualities that an Asian man does not have, self-esteem is another thing he cleary does do not have.
"...there are AM and WF couples out there...If your theory hold true..."
What I said is not a theory. It is a GENERALIZATION, as I've stated before. As I have also stated before, I am not going to discuss the 1% or so exception cases and name every exceptional John and Mary. When I speaking to a GENERAL audience, when I am speaking about the GENERAL social trend, I refer to the GENERALIZATION.
"...the parents will forgive their son and accept the non-Asian daughter law into the family."
Forgive? You said it yourself: Asian parents would have to FORGIVE their sons for having a non-Asian daughter-in-law's.
"You are absolutely wrong for blaming it all on culture..."
I did not blame it "all" on culture. Asian cultures and traditions certainly is a key and often overlooked factor. There are many other factors at work, mass media being the next most important one. Mass media is a power that brainwashes people to think of WM/AF pairing is acceptable and preferred (not that it is not acceptable.) We all see WM/AF couples being romanticized in the media ALL THE TIME. That is why I do not consider Asian females who date White men as "open minded". That kind of pairing (i.e., WM/AF) has been accepted by both the mainstream and Asian societies for decades. WM/AF pairing is the NORM, not a taboo. On the other hand, when was the last time you see an Asian man kiss on the screen? When was the last time you see an Asian man being paired with a White woman on the screen? When was the last time you see an Asian man being paired with an ASIAN women on the screen? (in a mainstream production, not some foreign import or little unknown indie flick put together by Asian Americans.) Anyway, one can write bookS on this topic alone, so I am not going to discuss it in great length.
"Culture have nothing to do with it...That claim is not valid."
So say you. Culture has to do with just about EVERYTHING in our lives.
"Love is mutual attraction between a man and a woman. What does culture and tradition have to do with it can you explain that to me?"
That is a very naive point of view on the nature of love. Either that or someone is in denial. Social scientists (e.g., anthropologists and sociopsychologists) can lecture how cultures and traditions have to do with how people fall in love. The basics are common sense, and the details take YEARS and lifetime for people to learn. That is why people go to graduate schools and pursue PhDs and doctorate degrees in that subject. If someone denies the common sense, I will not waste my efforts to explain the details to him. He will always look for rationales to remain in denial.
"But saying culture forcefully limit the choice you make...is false."
In some cases, yes, cultures do forcefully limit the choices people make. However, for Asians in America, cultures do not force anyone to do anything. It does, however, gear people toward certain behaviors and actions. ALL of us are (consciously or subconsciously) bound by our cultural upbringing in a way or another, and no one can completely break free from their cultures.
"don't speak for all AM"
Ditto.
T'K Chang
t_k_chang@yahoo.com
Wednesday, December 11, 2002 at 15:38:46 (PST)
[207.167.96.68]
To Curious 1,
My parents were also semi-liberal when I was growing up. It was okay to have friends of all races and even have them over for dinner or whatever, but they were very specific in telling me and my sis NOT to date blacks. I always found it troubling that my parents were so racist against blacks, especially when most of the racist discomfort I experienced growing up came mostly from whites and Latins.
As far as the Gender gap - I seem to remember when I was in college (about 10 years ago now) that whenever I saw a mixed couple with one Asian partner, it always seemed to be an AF with a WM, and rarely an AM with another. I do think that the American media stereotypes about AMs and AFs definitely played a role in this perceived imbalance. AMs were (and probably still are) portrayed as unmanly and unmasculine, compared with a white guy. An AF, on the other hand had been portrayed as obedient, demure, etc. - the kind of qualities lacking in brash, loud-mouthed white American women.
The apparent imbalance didn't bother me much though - if an AF was truly a self-hating banana, that was her business, and it certainly wasn't up to me to change her mind.
"B" as in "bictory"
Wednesday, December 11, 2002 at 14:24:16 (PST)
[63.98.74.2]
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