The AA Gender Divide: Is It Real? | Asian American Issues

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IS THE AA GENDER DIVIDE REAL?
(Updated Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008, 06:05:29 PM)

sian American women are abandoning AA men by the millions. Young AA women seek out any race of men but their own. Women like Amy Tan write books and make movies that dump on AA men and glorify Asian women in relationships with white men.
     That's the perception of many AA men.
     On what do they blame this state of affairs? Brainwashing by media that play up white men while cutting Asian men off at the knees. Desire for payback by AA women who feel slighted by their families and Asian society. Large numbers of non-Asian men with blind fetishes for Asian women. Some even acknowledge that Asian men are often too fixed in their ideas of how a woman should look and behave, causing many AF to feel devalued.
     Other Asian Americans see AF outmarriage rates as merely a natural state of affairs for a 4% minority population that includes many recent immigrants. The outmarriage gender gap will narrow as growing Asian population centers provide ready access to bigger pools of singles. Besides outmarriage isn't the same as rejecting one's racial identity, they argue. Many AF who outmarry retain strong identification with their Asian identity.
     Is there really an Asian American gender divide? Is so, what's behind it? If not, what's behind the perception?

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WHAT YOU SAY

[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]

To: TK Chang

"So White men decide what is "open-minded" and what is not."

I'd qualify the statement to reflect "white men like Rob." There are many white men who do not share his views.

The real definition for his term "open-minded" is whether the woman will "open her legs" for him. If not, she is closed minded (a.k.a. legs closed to him).
Repost
Sunday, December 15, 2002 at 07:36:27 (PST) [66.92.1.200]

To: Think Tank

""Vultures" abound, Repost..."

What does anything in your post have anything to do with me?
Repost
Sunday, December 15, 2002 at 07:30:55 (PST) [66.92.1.200]

To: maxdacat

Forgot one point:

"i'm not saying she is a great writer just that her life experiences maker her a bit more than your average middle class flake"

To the best of my knowledge, none of what she wrote was her experience. Her novels are fiction. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Repost
Sunday, December 15, 2002 at 07:30:34 (PST) [66.92.1.200]

To: maxdacat

Sorry about the confusion. Connie Chung was a non-issue at all. That was actually a quote from an Asian American woman who wrote of the challenges Asian women like her face in this society. I’m not sure if I accidentally clipped the link, or that the Editors here clipped the link.

(Editor: Are we not supposed to include links that point to another site? If not, is it ok with you for the readers to email me, and I will privately forward them the link? Thanks.)

The author was quite disturbed by the white characterization of Asian women by objectifying them into sex objects and less than human. Her points really opened my eyes to the challenges that she and many other Asian women face everyday. But most importantly, where this society has successfully indoctrinated some Asian women to blame everything and hate Asian men, Asian women like this author see through these societal manipulations. So my main point was that Asian sisters like her need and deserve our support. If we don’t support them, who will?

As for Amy Tan, she is an Asian. Non-Asian people who read her works assume that she is the authority of the Asian culture. Yes, some ignorant people do that. Unless I have it wrong, her authoring also carries the responsibility of fairly representing the Asian culture. Otherwise, it’s rather irresponsible and self-serving of her to exploit her own culture for a buck, isn’t it? I know many Asian Americans, and none of them grew up in a dysfunctional family the way Amy Tan portrays it.
Repost
printerisoutofpaper@hotmail.co Sunday, December 15, 2002 at 07:10:09 (PST) [66.92.1.200]

[We allow links that cite germane data that cannot be summarized within the post itself. We omit links if the post appears to advertise, promote or endorse sites of questionable taste, relevance or credibility. We also omit links to cites that are peripheral to the discussion. We don't want to host discussions based on the credibility of content provided in other sites. --Ed]

To: Rob

“I agree with everything Eastern European girl has said so far.”

Come on, give her a little more credit than that. Be a little more thoughtful. She spent hours defending you against virtually everyone here. It’s almost like having your girlfriend work all day to prepare a nine course dinner and all you can say is: “Uh… ok.”

“True, you are older than both her and me (and Lisa), but age does not negate our experiences with IR dating. The truth is that people involved in IR experience some very harsh prejudice, and you have to be in it to know what it feels like.”

We are in agreement here. IR couples consisting of Asian men with white women experience very harsh prejudice. I’ve been in IR before, so I had my share of negativity against Asian men who are with white women.

”For the record, I never said that AF who date AM are closed minded.”

You wrote: “Asian women are free to date only Asian men--I believe in a woman's right to choose--but I'm not sure if I would call that open minded.”

So they’re not closed minded, and they’re not open-minded. What mind are they? Mindless? Do you and eastern-european girl attend the same cadet academy? Never mind.

“In fact (and I hope the editors will allow me to repeat this) most of my AM friends date AF, and I have no problem with it whatsoever. My comment was simply that society is more forgiving of AM/AF couples than AF/WM couples, and that it therefore took an extra measure of open mindedness for an AF to go against society and date a WM. I still stand by this view.”

Rob, you’re not an Asian man, so you will never really know. I will never say Asian men have it harder in an IR relationship than an Asian woman. I wouldn’t even say that I have it harder than Asian women in an IR relationship. Why? Because I am not an Asian woman, so I can never make that comparison. You are neither an Asian man nor an Asian woman. How in the world will you know? Takes an extra measure of open mindedness? Stop pulling garbage out of thin air.

“And about your post on Connie Chung: Most Asian American advocacy groups are extremely liberal. Maybe Connie is conservative and doesn't like to be around liberal people. As far as her ethnic jokes, I make ethnic jokes about white people (like me) all the time. What's wrong with a little ethnic humor? Watch BET, and that's all you'll see. I guess what I'm saying is that there are different ways to be proud of your identity.”

Connie Chung is a non-issue. Please refer to my post to maxdacat. But again, you just had to open up another can of worms, didn’t you?

First, stop pretending you’re stating facts when you’re just pulling garbage out of thin air. You claim that Asian American advocacy groups are extremely liberal. Extremely liberal? Compared to what? You claim that Connie Chung is conservative and doesn’t like to be around liberals. Can you quote her somewhere where she said that? Do you remember the first fall of Connie? She reported her interview with Newt Gingrich’s mother, where Newt’s mother told Connie in a promise of confidentiality of her opinion of her son, Newt. What does Connie do? Turns her back on her promise of confidentiality. Connie is not a conservative. She’s screwing over a conservative with what she did with Newt. She is an opportunist lacking morals and professionalism.

Second, what’s wrong with a little ethnic humor? Well, it’s not your ethnicity at stake here, so it’s ok to you, right? Again, Rob, your motives are so self-serving.
Repost
Sunday, December 15, 2002 at 07:05:04 (PST) [66.92.1.200]

Is the gender divide real? My short answer is that it depends. I have this white male colleague at work who admits to having a fetish for asian women. He is a mild mannered allround nice guy. He recently made an observation that he rarely sees asian men dating white women only a lot of WM dating AF. Well, it got me thinking why does he think that?

Speaking from my own personal experience, i know more AM linking up with WF than the other way round. Even another work colleague who is Filipino is currently dating a WF. I know a family friend who dared defy his father's wishes and married a blonde nordic type. One explanation i can give is that our circle of friends differ. My WM work colleague probably knows more AF than AM so is more exposed to AF/WM couples. Having said this, interracial couples are not common, most asians i know generally prefer their own kind because they have more in common.

Another explanation that is quite plausible is the James Bond factor. Most of the movies and other media have WM as central figures often with exotic dragon lady types as side kicks (such as the Bond flick with Pierce Brosnan and Michelle Yeo). Rarely do we see AM as central figures but when we do, we could easily mistaken that AM are the sell-outs. Films like The Lover, Dragon:The Bruce Lee Story and Replacement Killers (pity CHow Yun Fat didn't score a home run with Mira Sorvino) are examples but they are far and few between.

This gender divide may have been easier to forecast a decade or two ago, but with changing demographics, traditonal cultural barriers breaking down, its become more difficult to predict which way the scales are tipping.
Amy Tan is a disservice
Saturday, December 14, 2002 at 06:42:56 (PST) [203.29.131.4]

This message is in regard to the following statement: "so many AFs seem snobby and act like they think they are the best thing since sliced bread"

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but Asian Females existed before sliced bread was invented. If you're going to make a point, try to be accurate.

Thanks.
AF who slices own bread
Friday, December 13, 2002 at 21:38:37 (PST) [24.80.5.0]

Repost,
I date more than just white. Still hasn't sunk in has it. I liked how Rob guys "girlfriend" highlighted white, kind of like how you highlight all non-AF as white.

Sorry, my disgust will never die. I might pity them less, but that's about it.

We, us and AM are all plurals (well, AM not always).

Get my facts straight,
Still making negative assumptions about me. Yeah, that'll get me to shut up.
huu76
Friday, December 13, 2002 at 20:00:43 (PST) [65.95.193.33]

It's snowing again - the white lie is falling again.

Each lie is white as a snowflake. Alone, it's seemingly harmless, but when a lie is told, people find discrepencies. The liar must then lie again to cover up his/her previous lie, and more discrepencies are revealed. The lies continue to build up like a snowstorm, and the liar is inevitably crushed in an avalanche of lies. The liar loses all credibility and respect.

Rob, you couldn't give a valid response about refutations of your flaky stories about "Lisa". Of course, it's because Lisa and your story is BS. But since you have the nerve to show up again, I'll give you some more questions about your continuing lies, which you won't answer because you're lying. Anyway, it's fun to discredit you.

you said:
"For the record, I never said that AF who date AM are closed minded."

you said on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 at 23:31:23 (PST):
Asian women are free to date only Asian men--I believe in a woman's right to choose--but I'm not sure if I would call that open minded.

you said:
"My comment was simply that society is more forgiving of AM/AF couples than AF/WM couples, and that it therefore took an extra measure of open mindedness for an AF to go against society and date a WM."

Huh? If two people love each other, why does society need to "forgive" a couple for that. Same race couples don't need "forgiving", and neither do transethnic couples. Of course, transethnic couples have an extra challenge of being accepted by both sides, but you were talking about society in general. For now, whites make up the majority of society, so by your standards, it takes more open-mindedness for an AF to be with an AM (who is a minority in society) when there are so many more WMs around who make up society.

you said:
"And about your post on Connie Chung: Most Asian American advocacy groups are extremely liberal. Maybe Connie is conservative and doesn't like to be around liberal people."

Rob, you are really busted here. Fact is Asian Americans tend to be conservative over liberal. Several reasons. AA's have higher average incomes than the average American, and are more likely to vote Republican than whites and certainly blacks. AA advocacy groups fought hard in California to pass Proposition 209 (to end affirmative action in Califonia public schools), because liberal affirmative action plans were HURTING AA's the MOST.

you said:
"What's wrong with a little ethnic humor?"
Boy, you are really one insensitive, closed-minded racist about touchy issues of minority groups. It's shows you don't have any respect for Asians or non-whites. You even said on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 at 23:31:23 (PST),

""White Lie" (I hope this isn't a reference to my race, but I forgive you if it is):"

So it does disturb you when people make racial references to your race. You may forgive, but you wrote it to express your uneasiness to such racial references.
B. Lee
Friday, December 13, 2002 at 20:00:13 (PST) [207.172.11.148]

"If you can't already tell, she is a BF with a rather large chip on her shoulder...is this still the case Curious?"

Wow. What a unique discovery! Gee whiz. Interesting observation by Maxdacat, a White Man. Yes. Quite interesting and appropriate for him to point out such a thing. Only a White Man such as himself would be so knightly and such a hero to make such a statement. Why thankyou for pointing that out to all of us Mr.Eurocentric Maxdacat. We all needed to be educated in that sense by such.
what a unique discovery
Friday, December 13, 2002 at 11:48:17 (PST) [199.35.35.148]

"If you can't tell, she is a BF with a rather large chip on her shoulder..is this still the case Curious?"

Or perhaps she is a White Washed Asian guy with a chip on his shoulder. Or maybe a pissed off Black Man with a Chip on his shoulder. Geeze...this singling out needs to really stop. Whomever she/or he is, they need to rethink their ignoraumus comment and stop calling themselves Curious1, and call themselves "Stupid1" because that would make more sense
Stop the Singling out
Friday, December 13, 2002 at 11:37:25 (PST) [199.35.35.148]

All

It amazes me how some people do not recognize the (sometimes unintentional) racism of mass media, and its influence on people's perceptions.

For example, have you ever noticed how rarely ASIAN COUPLES are shown in U.S. television or movies? Blacks (and of course Whites) are usually shown as a happily matched pair, but for Asians, it is always the happy AF and WM.

Just think about this phenomenon for a second, don't you find it strange? Wouldn't the most natural pairing for a TV or movie be an AF/AM, a la WF/WM and BF/BM? Yet in American media, such a pairing is rarely, if ever, shown. Think about how this affects your thinking of what is socially acceptable/desireable and what is not.

Don't believe such a phenomenon exists? Here are some recent examples: The Single Guy (sitcom with Ming Na Wen), Ally McBeal, Friends (Ross dating the Chinese girl), etc.

Where are the asian men? Do asian couples not exist? Why does the media not portray them? The message is subtle but consistent: Asian women are accepted by mainstream U.S. society only when they have White men to validate their acceptance.
d-boy
Friday, December 13, 2002 at 09:42:05 (PST) [172.151.128.197]

Curious1 you come off sounding like a pervert and worst a downright criminal. Reading your post again, you could apply the same indulgence and excitement toward molesting a minor, a senior, or a broomstick. So what else do you fantasize about you pervert?

What's is your race? I don't think Asians are such an idiot to called oneself 'Curious1' when the website is for them. You're likely just another 'Rob the nice deceiving liar'.

You definitely don't sound like an Asian to say that Asians are more prejudiced toward blacks and that blacks aren't even prejudiced against Asians. To even omit asking if blacks, who are more race-centric on issues, are more prejudiced or not is absurb b/c from what I have seen they seem to be not just more prejudiced but more racist. One thing about some blacks they are every good in putting up false fronts of their 'open-mindedness' and 'pillars of civil rights.' I grew up enjoying the contribution of black culture and a vast majority of them are good citizens but there is no denying that they also have problems many in their inner city areas and it's a poor excuse to blame society when they're going have to stand up and account for themselves.

There are Asians here who grew up in suburbs and in good environment where most discrimination they'll first encounter are in classrooms or in the media. There are Asians here who grew up at the front lines of inner city poor neighborhoods witnessing the discrimination b/c they are the minority of the minorities and the hyprocrisy of racial tolerance by other races. So don't give us your crap about Asians being more prejudiced. Your kindly put subtle and deceiving messages implies that you don't agree with the messages of Asians (BAC and NMJL) and you are showing that you know better than Asians.
street smart Asian
Thursday, December 12, 2002 at 20:21:32 (PST) [130.212.118.111]

Often interracial relationships mislead us that the persons involved are dating their loved ones regardless of their ethnic or racial backgrounds. Ones that would date not based race. However lots of relationships discussed on this forum are contrary to this belief. Many AF/AM place race as the prime attraction factor, not the personality, sharing similar values or character. Should we call this type of relationships race-based relationships, instead of interracial?
FOP
Thursday, December 12, 2002 at 18:00:14 (PST) [207.221.132.25]

All

This is a community service announcement....I thought you might appreciate some of Curious1's previous posts (now that she has sprung up again)that i have dug up....along with some of my comments alongside.....you can verify this for yourselves in the "Are AF's the real victims of prejudice" poll...just scroll back a couple of pages.....if you can't already tell, she is a BF with a rather large chip on her shoulder...is this still the case Curious?

anyway read on:

"White women have a long, long history of being known as sluts"......okaaaay so my sister is a slut

"most WFs don't want AMs anyway".....well that's a bit of a kick in the teeth for AM

"many AFs do act like they are God's gift to man"....those nasty AF's

"white men who go after these [Asian]women are either fulfilling some Asian fetish".....take that AF/WM couples!

"or are closet pedophiles who just want someone who's built like she's only 13 years old"

"I don't flinch at all when there are other AFs in the vicinity!!"

"Oh, I do agree w/the media representation of AFs w/WMs but again I think it stems from Asian fetishism"

"WMs know they have to face the wrath of black men when they go after black women".....does wrath="you stealin' our ho's white boy"?

"Many times when I have seen WM w/AF, they are looking me up and down right in front of that woman so obvious that they are strictly after AFs (since I in no way look Asian)".....oops didn't you just contradict yourself here?

"bottom line (and you can argue it all you want) is that majority of AFs ARE built like preteens"

"not so much a slam against AFs"....not at all, adult women just love being told they have they body of a 12 yr old and their boyfriends are closet paedophiles

and hey let's throw another unrelated insult in for good measure.....

"so many AFs seem snobby and act like they think they are the best thing since sliced bread"

hope this stirs thing up for you all!
maxdacat
Thursday, December 12, 2002 at 16:58:50 (PST) [129.223.37.13]

Repost,

Be that as it may i don't know if refusing to speak at Asian American events means CC hates being Asian.

It might signal a lot of ambivalence but maybe she just wants to be seen as a newsreader first and Asian a distant fourth or fifth.....the bottom line is that it's her choice.....if all the rent-a-crowd Asian American naysayers out there have a better alternative to CC....one who is "true to her roots" i'd like to see it

Unfortunately to suceed in the West one has to assimilate to some extent which i think is exactly what she has done....she would be damned if she didn't and of course now she is damned when she does.....as Larry Elison said when at the Americas cup in New Zealand last month...."you guys in the media can't make up your minds....i'm damned if i spend too much time at the office and damned if i don't".

I think it's still a bit of a shame she has to play up to western stereotypes about all asians looking the same.

About your earlier post about Amy Tan having a problem with a fine upstanding AA....sure she gets a bad rap....i would say two things:

1) in JLC the white guy who pours soy sauce all over the mums cooking is rightly portrayed as a moron....it doesn't completely redress the perceived imbalance of negative portrayals of AM's in the film book but it's worth bearing in mind

2) i've read a very long interview with her discussing her life including several unsavoury incidents of abuse....leading me to give her a bit more credit than she is otherwise given by some AM.....i'm not saying she is a great writer just that her life experiences maker her a bit more than your average middle class flake

awaiting your repost!
maxdacat
Thursday, December 12, 2002 at 16:44:35 (PST) [129.223.37.13]

I've noticed that those who say that culture is not a factor in relationships are :
1) in an interracial relationship and 2) are non-Asian (usually White).

A White person in America has only "American culture". (Unless they're a recent immigrant, which is rare)

For an Asian person, we have both American and Asian culture.

Why deny the role that culture plays?

I think it's because these people need a means to justify their own relationships.

Like saying, "Culture doesn't matter, because it's about the person".

Well, how did you think the person was shaped to be who he is today?

Spell it out with me: C-U-L-T-U-R-E

These same people will hypocritically in turn say that they are "open-minded" and "love" to learn more about their boyfriend's "culture".

To those people: Now, what's your stance on culture now?

Yes, some Asian men may be pressured to date within their own race.

But if an Asian man is in love with an Asian woman, people start to fly off the handle by asking him if it's because of the pressure?

How about the fact that he actually likes this other person, people?

Does he have to prove that he's not under pressure, by going out and dating a non-Asian?

Wouldn't that make him the sell-out we all profess to hate?

"Vultures" abound, Repost...
Think Tank
Thursday, December 12, 2002 at 15:44:52 (PST) [208.48.177.5]

I also applaud BAC. I think it's great that a wonderful AM has found a wonderful AF. BAC prefers AF, and he found the one of his dreams. I give them my highest props. Way to go, brother!

At the same time, I think it is also great when a wonderful WM finds a wonderful AF. All I want is some recognition that WM/AF relationships, such as the one I am in, can be great too. We're all one race of humans. We're all in this together. Let us celebrate our similarities over our differences, especially in this Christmas season.

Peace.
Rob
Thursday, December 12, 2002 at 15:18:18 (PST) [32.102.91.183]

Repost:

I agree with everything Eastern European girl has said so far. True, you are older than both her and me (and Lisa), but age does not negate our experiences with IR dating. The truth is that people involved in IR experience some very harsh prejudice, and you have to be in it to know what it feels like.

For the record, I never said that AF who date AM are closed minded. In fact (and I hope the editors will allow me to repeat this) most of my AM friends date AF, and I have no problem with it whatsoever. My comment was simply that society is more forgiving of AM/AF couples than AF/WM couples, and that it therefore took an extra measure of open mindedness for an AF to go against society and date a WM. I still stand by this view.

And about your post on Connie Chung: Most Asian American advocacy groups are extremely liberal. Maybe Connie is conservative and doesn't like to be around liberal people. As far as her ethnic jokes, I make ethnic jokes about white people (like me) all the time. What's wrong with a little ethnic humor? Watch BET, and that's all you'll see. I guess what I'm saying is that there are different ways to be proud of your identity.
Rob
Thursday, December 12, 2002 at 15:08:34 (PST) [32.102.91.183]

It is so refreshingly interesting that White men such as Ron qualify an Asian woman who date White men as "open minded" without looking at other aspects of her behaviors. So White men decide what is "open-minded" and what is not. And so the great White men decide: dating them is "open minded", and not dating them is not. Um, does anyone else see the conflict of interests that might obstruct objectivty?

Which bring us to the question: if an Asian women (e.g., Ron's Lisa) REFUSE to date Asian men and date White men ONLY (for whatever reason, who cares? People are good at making up reasons.) Is she still, "open minded"?
T'K Chang
t_k_chang@yahoo.com Thursday, December 12, 2002 at 13:41:14 (PST) [207.167.96.130]

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