Comparing Asian Nationalities | Asian American Poll

COMPARING ASIAN NATIONALITIES
(Updated Wednesday, Jan 22, 2025, 06:39:09 AM to reflect the 100 most recent valid responses.)

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WHAT YOU SAY

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To, Yo ...Chinese......;

Hmmm, i just wanted to ask. Do you see more of a physical similarity between the southern chinese and the vietnamese, or do you see the vietnamese as having more similarities with the northern chinese? I ask this because the traveller says that he thinks that the vietnamese are more of a han descendent from the north. Just curious you know.

Never been to northern china, but i'll go someday. If what k says is true, about the dragon being more of a YUEH derived idea, then is dragon dancing thought of as a southern invention?
Hafti Monday, July 22, 2002 at 12:39:31 (PDT)

Traveller,

You mentioned Trieu Da (Chao T’o in Chinese) who established Kingdom of Nam Viet/Nan Yueh (207-111BC). Vietnam history recorded that he himself was Chinese Qin general who repelled against China and he was also recorded as one of Vietnamese ancestors. If you look at the timeline of Vietnam history, Trieu Da in fact was Vietnamese King. Later, his Kingdom was conquered by Chinese Han, then timeline of Vietnam stated that period was Chinese domination.

Please look at my little lovely country in 211BC:

http://emjnet.history.ohio-state.edu/121%20UM/Lecture%2016/04%20Early%20hist.htm
You can see Kingdom of Nam Viet (today Vietnam) stretched out to south east side of today China, Hong Kong, Hainan island also included. The map covered most of northern Vietnam. It might conclude that Southern Chinese and Vietnamese might share a common ancestor.

Be happy. Be Vietnamese.
An Nam Guy Monday, July 22, 2002 at 09:58:12 (PDT)

Ainu, k, the truths, et. al.,

The traditional Ainu have a wide, short face and flat nose. They have short, stocky builds and large, powerful hands. They have flat, almost invisible cheekbones, large powerful jaws and the sides of the frontal bone in their skull curve in, giving their forehead a slightly tapered look. In total appearance they most resemble Inuit or Australian Aborigine populations. The Japanese consider the Ainu to be throwbacks to primitive man and, thus, physically inferior. http://home.earthlink.net/~adabb27/ainu.pdf In addition, Ainu language is related to Austronesian languages. http://www.dai3gen.net/epage10a.htm http://www.dai3gen.net/epage13.htm

Kennewick (Man)… finds its closest association with groups of Polynesia and the Ainu of Japan. The question of "Caucasoid" affinities for the Kennewick remains can be addressed, depending on how the term "Caucasoid" is defined. In the strictest sense, this refers to populations of western and southwest Eurasia-- peoples that live or lived in what is now Europe, the near East, and India. When defined in this way, Kennewick is clearly not a Caucasoid. Although one European group, Zalavar (1/25 = 4%) was included among the five nearest "neighbors" to Kennewick, the majority of nearest neighbors are from Polynesia (16/25 = 64%) and east Asia (24%). The Ainu, which we have described as "east Asian", occur as a nearest neighbor three times (12%), while Native Americans occur as neighbors just twice (8%). Although Kennewick exhibits some features that typically (but not exclusively) occur in modern American Whites (Caucasoids), these same features also occur in moderate to high frequency among Polynesian populations (Gill 1986). If the Ainu are considered to be "Caucasoids," as they were first described in 19th-century anthropological literature, this might explain reports of "Caucasoid" features in the Kennewick skull. However, we follow Brace and Hunt (1990) and Turner (1990) in viewing the Ainu as a southeast Asian population derived from early Jomon peoples of Japan, who have their closest biological affinity with south Asians rather than western Eurasian peoples. Thus Kennewick appears to have strongest morphological affinities with populations in Polynesia and southern Asia, and not with American Indians or Europeans in the reference samples. http://www.cr.nps.gov/aad/kennewick/powell_rose.htm

Effectively, there is no evidence, genetic, linguistic or otherwise, that Caucasoid people reached eastern Siberia or Japan in prehistoric times.
J Lee Monday, July 22, 2002 at 09:13:45 (PDT)

Blah, you idiot.
Don't believe in stereotypes and stupid rumors about HK celebrities are all northern descendents. I can only name two, which is Leon and Faye. Others are HKers and born in HK. Only after 1997, HK people started to learn mandarin. You are right that we love everything though.
Canto Guy Monday, July 22, 2002 at 08:45:54 (PDT)

To Dr. Traveller,

Thanks for the web site that you provided. Yes, the Nguyen in Chinese character is exactly what I got from the Chinese man. Really? I carry Chinese last name too? Well, I don’t feel better or worse.

You quoted:
“Sometimes, they (the Vietnamese) are ignorant calling the Chinese as "Ba Tau", not knowing that they came from the same ancestor or that they are Chinese who fled away from China earlier.”

When the Ming (Minh in Vietnames) Dynasty collapsed in China in the late 17th century (1644), millions of Ming royalists and their families fled China to Vietnam to seek refuge. This event in history proves you wrong; Vietnam indeed was an independent state from China. Otherwise, for their safety, these Chinese could have sought refuge in other countries outside “China territory” such as Kingdom of Khmer, Kingdom of Thailand etc…

What did the Vietnamese King Le Nhan Tong (Le Dynasty) react to this situation, huge migration of Chinese? He ordered his troops to pick up the unfortunate Chinese, helped settled them in southern part of Vietnam, newly occupied land from the Kingdom of Champa. Many Chinese scholars were well treated in the Kingdom. Some became Generals, Ministers, Doctors some became Advisers for the King. Why? Kingdom of Vietnam used Chinese language and Vietnamese Confucius society was respecting whoever has great knowledge in many fields such as medicine, science, technology, literature, etc…

Among thousand of boats coming down from China, Vietnam history recorded the arrival of three huge boats loaded with some Ming’s Generals and thousand of troops. They landed in coastal city of today Ninh Thuan province, central Vietnam. Vietnamese King gave them a warm welcome to the Kingdom and settled first in Bien Hoa province then Saigon and as Vietnam expansion to the South, these Chinese immigrants followed the Vietnamese troops. The “three big boats” means Ba Ta`u in Vietnamese. “Ba” means three, “Ta`u” means boat in Vietnamese. There is no bias or negative feeling about the Chinese. So, the Vietnamese called these Chinese are “Ba Ta`u” or “Ngu*o*`i Ta`u” in which “Ngu*o*`i” means People, “Ta`u” means Boat, hence the term “Ngu*o*`i Ta`u” or boatpeople came from. Four hundred years later, the Vietnamese were called boatpeople after the fall of Saigon. You see history repeated?

You wrote:
“If you look at this prospective, who do you think is more of an ignorance? I would tend to look at the Vietnamese of more an ignorance, since he/she cannot read or write his/her ancestor language.”

Would you tend to look at younger generations of Asian American as ignorance because they cannot read or write their parents languages?

Be Vietnamese. Be who you are.
Take care.
An Nam Guy Monday, July 22, 2002 at 05:05:24 (PDT)

"Also weather CAN be an argument, BUT only if they went WILLINGLY. If you can go willingly to hawaii which is like your homeland and of which you are accustomed to would you rather go there or alaska? BUT the vietnamese as a fact just had a war, and going ANYWHERE to hide would be good. Like you said, people who were SENT to the cold places had it bad. I live in Canada, my dad actually stayed in Malaysia as a refugee waiting for the USA or Australia to accept, but he was accepted by Canada first, so he left in eager. If you get to choose that is a different matter though."

>>>>It's an argument, but it's a very very weak argument.
The TraveLLer Monday, July 22, 2002 at 00:30:38 (PDT)

Traveller:

Regarding the Dong Son people:

let me just say i'm no expert on history, but here are something about dong son culture in my knowledge...have u ever seen the Dong Son copper drums?
they carved 3 rounds symbolizing 3 millenniums, 5 colors symbolizing 5 elements of the universe:white(metal), black(water),green(wood), red(fire), yellow(arth). THe images also remind alot of Yin and Yang theory.

well, i thought the 5 elements and all the yin-Yang stuff din't exist in Malay culture???

another ancient name of Van Lang is Hong Bang, Au lAc. There are 8 bird which they call Lac bird carved on the drum.
any thoughts?
k Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 23:52:22 (PDT)

"Hmmm, that's what i notice, but i thought it was more of an asian thing. Oh well. I noticed that asian muscles are more dense and lean, making it stronger without all the size."

Hafti: Well, it could be, Many northern Asians are skinny too, but don't have the natural tone. For instance, some Viet and Toi San guys who never picked up a dumbbell in their life, might still have definition in the shoulders and chest, as opposed to northerners who would have stick-like arms, with a flat chest.

"I am a Northern Chinese and I bet that some Cantonese Chinese would feel a lot more closer to Vietnamese than they would to me..."

Yo: You are right on this. Not only do Viets share many cultural aspects, and even look like Cantonese, but they have the same type of fighting spirit. Northern Chinese look down on Cantonese as being barbarians because they are more subsistence type workers. However, Cantonese and Viets are resilient, and will put up with any type of hardship to ensure a better life. They work hard and sacrifice. That's why Cantonese have survived in some of the most inhospitable, remote environments in the world. Somewhere else on the site, a post mentioned that 90% of the Asians outside of Asia are Cantonese. That says something.

"There popsingers and actors/actresses are composed of Shanghai and Northern beauties that come to HongKong in the past. People like Joey Yung, is cantonese however...muahah cause she aint that pretty! And you can tell! The thing thats dumb about cantonese is that, they like these singers and stuff from other lands, but they dont even respect their country!"

Blah: HK has always been an international commerce destination. That's how they are so exposed to other cultures. They manufacture American clothing, assemble Japanese electronics, etc. I don't think they disrespect other countries. HK people are like that - always talking s#!t. It's in their nature. HK people are ugly? There are way finer girls in HK than Taipei or Beijing. And if what you are saying is true, what does that say for HK that the supposedly prettier people from other regions want to go there? That just shows that HK is where it's at, and not wherever they came from.
TSJ Eric@KristinKreuk.net Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 23:13:10 (PDT)

World Cup Korea/Japan,

As a Chinese, I'm very ashamed of these tourists in the Netherlands. It is true that some Chinese people have the tendency to be inconsiderate and take advantage of things that they shouldn't be taking advantage of, and I feel sad and powerless (of preventing them) whenever I see this. I think that something in the atmosphere of China as a result of the country's history has caused certain of its people to be this way. But many Chinese people are not like this at all, and unfortunately the ones like the tourists in the Netherlands are giving a bad image to Chinese people as a whole, and giving a reason for those who dislike Chinese people to demonize us. I do hope that this handful of Chinese tourists is not enough to, and cannot, taint the Korean image in the Netherlands.
Elisa Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 22:50:58 (PDT)

World Cup Corea/Japan
Thanks for the post, it was intersting.
I don't want to bash or even lump all Chinese together but I do feel alot of Chinese people give other East Asians a bad reputation. I can't understand why they tend to cling together in Chinatowns seperating themselves from other nationalities. I know other nationalities ahve done it in the past but for some reason Chinese still continue to after over 200 yrs history of Chinese in America.At least clean the place, its filthy in NYC.
I can seewhy alot of Northern Chinese go out of their way trying to distance
themselves from southernChinese of the world. I guess most FOB Chinese are from Fujian province?
Also I don't see too much difference between the southern Chinese and Vietnames either, most Vietnamese seem to have settled in Chinatowns throughout America and have blended with the more established southern Chinese so I think alot of people tend to see them as one.
Big Apple Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 20:53:30 (PDT)

I love how non-Chinese people tell everyone else how Chinese esteem themselves and regard others. It's quite ridiculous and risible.

Nguyen being of northern Chinese origin? highly doubtful, when considering that Wen, Yan, and Yuen are not particularly common Chinese names. When, if ever they can be found, it would be among the southern Chinese, such as Toisan. It is highly doubtful that you would ever find a northern Chinese with such a surname.
chinatown Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 19:46:11 (PDT)

World Cup Korea,Japan:

I wonder if those Chinese in Holland masquerading as Koreans are northern or southern Chinese?

I know that in Yugoslavia, many Beijing, Shanghai and other northern Chinese shop owners like to tell the local Slavs how more refined and different they are from the Fujianese and Cantonese shop owners. blah, blah, blah...To them, you are all the same.

Perhaps, it is the same elsewhere in Europe?
Most Koreans think Chinese want to act and be like them, bs... Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 19:39:06 (PDT)

TSJ,

here is a website on Toisan:

http://www.taishan.com

Many people in my family (in L.A. and S.F.) look no different from the folks on this site. There is really no typical Toisanese face. Some have big eyes and some have really slit eyes. Some have full hair and some are balding. Some are lean and some can be quite rotund. I know that Wong (Huang) is a very common surname among the Toisanese. Now, is that a common surname among the Vietnamese too?

I don't see how any of the Toisan people shown on that site looks like your typical Vietnamese?

Does Ho Chih Minh look southern Chinese? He is a north Vietnamese (who are reputed to have lots of Chinese admixture).
Hoisan doi Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 19:34:47 (PDT)

To, the traveller;

"In genetic, Mendel theory, after several generations of mixing, there's a possibility that the original trait ceased to exist in the offspring. With these to say, after countless waves of northerners migrated to the area, the Dong Son lost their empire long ago could not have been the main gene contributor to the modern day Vietnamese. Thus, from this genetic prospective, the Dong Son was a small contributor to possibly be none."

Actually can you name some of the migrations? I have only heard of 1 chinese migration, and it was relatively small.

"One evidence could vividly be seen through today's southern province of Vietnam. The Cham people were once the main genetic house of the area. After the Nguyen family and the Ming loyalist poured to the region and invaded the Cham territory. The Cham people were decrease in size, and this only happened 400 years ago. Whereas, the Dong Son had lost their territory more than 2000 years ago. Hafti, you claimed that the Dong Son thrived, how is that? The Cham people didn't thrive after they lost their territory. Why suddenly there is a double standard?"

Actually, the cham were a considerably large group of people. BUT they were openly killed, and even at that time they were of small size. Their empire was considered strong, but the population of the cham were small. The cham were considered to have diminished (decreased) by historians, while the dong son are considered to have thrived. Here you go again, i didn't say that the dong son from then thrived. HISTORIANS SAID THAT!

Here's a quote, read it, that's why i keep on saying that if historians considered the dong son to have thrived, how can you, a mere citizen, know more then them to conclude that they diminished?

"Even though the original Vietnamese culture developed from a number of merging cultures in the area of the Red River, it is the Dong Son or Au Lac civilization which marks the beginning of the Vietnamese civilization which continues to thrive today."

That's from YOUR site, so stop trying to ignore the fact that even your sources consider the dong son thrived.

"According to Dai Viet Su Ky written by Le Van Huu, the first person mentioned in the myth was De Minh, he is a legendary father of Chinese agriculture."

De Minh was recorded to have lived around the area of SE china or E china. He could welly have been an ancestor to the Yueh. If so then the vietnamese people have an equal claim to that ancestor, so the only problem is calling him 'chinese', why not 'vietnamese', the chinese territory did not exist at that time, so that claim is inaccurate to say the least.

"Here my question, was the Dong Son really the Hung Vuong era thought by the archaelogists? The Dong Son were not Chinese, they were an ethnic of Malay Polynesian, and they had no Chinese blood at the time of their existence. According to archaelogist, their culture didn't have any knowledge of a dragon as some sort of symbol. On the other hand, the Hung Vuong's worshipped the dragon, since their ancestor was the lord of the sea Dragon, and they had Chinese blood. From what I can say, the "Dong son" might not be the Vang Lang empire that Le Van Huu wrote about, or he had little to no knowledge about the Dong Son population. It could be a coincident also. Everything is possible, but the tide between the Dong Son and the Van Lang empire is slender and a guess, at best."

OMG, your talking about a legend like it's true. Au Co and her husband part could have been added on later to make the Hung Vuong era a more mystical reign. Would you have rathered talked about a guy who came in power because he was the richest and wisest guy there, or a descendent of the dragons? The legend was written after chinese rule, the dragon could have been added in later, not the original story. No one knows, that's why no true archaelogist rely on legends, only connecting what he sees, and reputing what he doesn't see.

"The Dong Son people fought two wars one with the Qin/Chin colonies and one with the Shu/Thuc, who later captured their territory. Thus, I would tend to believe a war could lead to a decrease of population. However, this was two wars that they experienced; hence, a large portion of their population could have been decreased. After the Thuc captured their territory, the Dong Son might have lesser or equal amount of population as the Thuc. Then later, as Trieu Da (or Zuo To) united the "Yueh" and captured the original Dong Son territory, which might had led to more destructive in the Thuc/Dong Son population. And Finally, the Han conquered the the territory. With all these fightings, how could the Dong Son be the major contributory of the modern Vietnamese?"

The evidence is presented by historians and archealogists. Even after those wars the population was considered to have 'thrived' not to have diminished. I don't see any records of huge han migration to vietnam in particular. I've only heard of one. No one is denying Yueh ancestry. Just saying that the Yueh is not chinese, due to the fact that the chinese has no ground to claim that ancestor to be solely chinese. It's a fact that the modern vietnamese is probably hold a higher percentage of Yueh genes in them then the chinese, also that also a higher population has those genes. So why can't we claim the Yueh as vietnamese either? Because when the Yueh existed there were no such thing as chinese or even vietnamese.
Hafti Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 19:22:12 (PDT)

In reply to the post by: Yo...Chinese......,

I notice that Northern or non-Cantonese-speaking Chinese are always lumping Cantonese with Vietnamese, and yet they don't necessarily lump other southern Chinese with Vietnamese (I mean, isn't Guangxi and Yunnan closer to Vietnam than Guangdong is? and don't many Cantonese people actually have closest ties with Fujianese?). I think this is due to Northern Chinese people's lack of understanding of Cantonese people because of language difference. Also, Cantonese, of all Chinese are most reluctant to speak Mandarin, so maybe because of this Mandarin-speakers have a prejudice against Cantonese-speakers.

Yes, it's true that there is a considerable number of Cantonese people who look Vietnamese, especially those from western Guangdong like Toisan. But there are also a lot of Cantonese people who look like Chinese from other areas of China, especially Fujian and Shanghai(and maybe this is where people get the misconception that all the pretty Hong Kong actresses are from Shanghai?). More often than not I can tell Vietnamese and Cantonese people apart. It's not because one group is better looking than the other. Rather, there is simply a different look to the two groups (generally). Although there are some similarities, such as slimness and darker skin, the bone structures of the faces of Vietnamese and Cantonese people are different.

Maybe one reason why a lot of Northern Chinese feel that they cannot relate to Cantonese people is because Hong Kong is so prominent for Cantonese people (including many of those who grew up overseas), and (due to a unique history) the culture and mentality of people in Hong Kong is very different from that of the mainland.

As a Cantonese Chinese who was originally from the mainland I feel very close to Northern Chinese (much more so than with Vietnamese). I feel that Northern Chinese and Cantonese people are actually very similar despite the fact that our languages sound so different. Because of the same collective cultural experiences there are things that cannot really be put into words that only fellow Chinese people can understand (just like there are things that only people from other cultures can understand), and in this Northern and Southern Chinese can understand each other more than anyone else can.

It seems to me that another reason why a lot of Northern Chinese are associating themselves with Koreans is because, even though it is unspoken, it is nevertheless felt generally that to be associated with *North* is more "prestigious" than to be associateed with *South*. It seems that the fact that both Cantonese and Vietnamese are southern is the reason we get a bad image (at least that's part of the reason). People think it's insulting to be associated with Vietnamese or even Southern Chinese (often forgetting that Shanghainese is, in fact, southern Chinese) and flattering to be associated with Japanese (of course, one obvious reason for this is that Japan is rich and developed, and Vietnam, at least, is not. But I don't think it's as simple as that). Vietnamese people are automatically thought of as being less physically attractive than Japanese or Korean people. Cantonese are automatically thought of as uglier than anyone else north of the Guangdong border.

By the way, I've noticed quite a few Japanese and Vietnamese who are indistinguishable from each other (in their *type* of physical features). And just the other day I saw a woman who had similar features to some of those much-raved-about Korean actresses and then later found out she was Vietnamese. If my friend (who knew her) didn't tell me this, I would have gone on thinking that the woman was Korean, therefore reinforcing my stereotypes about Koreans and Vietnamese (this probably happens a lot, and not only to me, which is why people are often so sure that a particular ethnic group looks better than another).

But that was a digression. I notice that Asians, in general, are always doing this (not that non-Asians never do it): associate themselves with what they see as most superior at the time, and dissociate with those who they see as inferior. That's so sad, not to mention short-sighted.
Elisa Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 18:52:22 (PDT)

I'm an African-American who just stumbled upon this site through the suggestion of my Chinese-American friend.

I go to a college where there are lots of Corean and Japanese international students. I am cool with them. But, last week, when I tried to hook up a Corean girl with a Japanese guy, she was like: "Hell no." What is the problem with this? Do they hate each other even to now?

Now, I noticed that the Japanese chicks at our college don't go with nobody except for whiteboys. Man, some of those girls are fine chicks, you know what I am saying? And, the whiteboys they going out with are sick white trash. What's up with that? I wonder how the Japanese guys feel about this? And, a lot of those Japanese boys at the college have them blonde streaks on their hair. I have lots of respect for Japan and their economic power. Growing up as a kid, I hated the USA and thought it was Japan who would one day bring America on its knees. But, I am having second thoughts now. Japan and India kiss up to white people too much.

Usually, I can tell Coreans and Japanese easily. I can pick them out from the crowd and say he or he is a Japanese or Corean. Especially true for Coreans.

I am now a Daoist. An Afro-American who has found the Dao. I hope to visit China someday. This was the nation I praised and made a speech comparing it to the USA in my class last semester. The white boys and white girls in class looked at me like I was some freak or something, but the white Jewish professor gave me an "A" and commended me for having the courage to speak my mind.

I hate America for enslaving my people and especially my mind. Christianity and Islam is not for my people. We lost our real gods and religion. Zimbabwe is the only true African country now. And, their only friend is China. Both countries did not ask the white man to leave, they both drive them out with force.

I have belief that China will rule someday. I want my kids to learn more about Chinese culture before it is too late.

This is from a black man who salutes China and his Chinese brothers for not tripping and staying true.
Wutang Mr. Rider Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 18:36:44 (PDT)

BLAH,

That is the mindset of Hong Kong Cantonese. I know some Toisan Cantonese in the USA who still to this day refuse to buy Japanese cars or TVs. They are fiercely proud to be Chinese and never forgetful of the past war (WWII).

Yo Chinese,

I think Koreans and Vietnamese relate to each better than they do to either northern or southern Chinese. Both have fondness for chili and hot temper. Both have high respect for the USA and the government, but I have been to Toisan, Cantonese and Mandarin homes in L.A. and N.Y. where the family would watch news on TV and accuse the Americans (white people) of such and such...

By the way, the Vietnamese are not well liked in Guangxi and Guangdong, just like I know Koreans are not well liked in northeast China. It is the same vice versa.

I am a Toisan Cantonese, and no Vietnamese family ever offered me to marry their daughter. Yesterday, I went to a photo shop owned by a couple from northern Fujian. I couldn't communicate with them in Mandarin (as they and I don't know how to speak it). But, we talked in English. And, I was able to understand them asking me if I was interested in seeing their daughter? You see, we southern Chinese have more in common with each other than to anyone else. We are the real descendants of Tang Dynasty heritage, as we all still call ourselves "Tangren." We are not Manchus, Mongols, Koreans and certainly not Vietnamese. We are Tang (a combination of Han with Yueh).

You sound like one of those Chinese who are ashamed of your own heritage.
Proud to be Chinese until the end Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 18:19:52 (PDT)

Hafti (or whatever):

>>>>Your paragraph:
"Lol, the problem with that logic now, is that i never claimed to be not partly chinese. I am already for sure 50% chinese. I WOULDN'T CARE, but the fact is that the name Ruan ISN'T a chinese name but of the empire Ruan that was destroyed by the Shang. The Shang knew nothing of the name chinese. We could be related but the vietnamese aren't chinese or even vice verca. But through probably a common ancestor. Being from the shang doesn't mean your chinese, the word chinese is connected to chinese history (history of the ancestors of the chinese, which is infinite) but the chinese as we know it today is shaped by the Han dynasty, of which the ethnic word han came from. And the earlier empire of which china was named after. How can my ancestors (during the Ruan empire) be chinese when in their time even the chinese weren't around?"

*****From the website that you've given me, "http://www.yutopian.com/names/06/6Ruan179.html"
THIS IS WHAT IT STATED: "In Vietnamese, the surname Ruan is known as Nguyen, which is the most popular family name. Although not all Vietnamese who bear this family name can trace their roots back to their Chinese ancestors, Nguyen is clearly a Chinese name. Many Vietnamese with this surname claim their ancestor to be a man called Ruan Cho, who was a governor of ChiaoChih (North Vietnam) during the Chen Dynasty (~600 A.D.)."

The Chen dynasty is one of the Han dynasty. Ruan Cho is a governor of the Chen Dynasty. based on your writing, you claimed, "...but the chinese as we know it today is shaped by the Han dynasty, of which the ethnic word han came from." So what is it? If that is the case your surname is Chinese, and it root originated geographically in China at this instance.

And how's it different? Further if you claimed that the Dong Son were the ancestor of the modern Vietnamese, how could that be when they DON'T HAVE THE LAST NAME NGUYEN or any others. THEY WERE THE MALAY-POLYNESIAN, THEY WERE NOT RELATED TO ANY NORTHERN KINGDOMS of CHINA. How and where do you get the Nguyen surname then?

Further, Dai Viet didn't set its independence at the time of the Han Dynasty. It got its independence after the Han dynasty in 940 A.D. So your surname migh come at the time of the Han, n'est ce pas?

>>>>>You wrote, "The name probably originated from an empire before the chinese, like the 7 states or something, which is also before the creation of the chinese. The chinese may call it chinese history."

****They are all Chinese. The Dong son's were not in this type of category; infact, let me remind you once again, the were Malay-Polynesian. What is your point?

>>>>"That's a pathetic argument for placing ignorance over another. The word ignorance can be placed upon all ethnics if found a good example, and all ethnics have an example. All races... The ancient Yueh or even the dong son i don't believe had a hand in the development of the chinese character. They simply used it by adjusting some of the words to fit the language then adopted it. Why can't they adopt another writing style? What's wrong with that? Is there some stupid rule saying that if you adopt something else then your ignorant? That's not the definition of ignorant. No one is ignoring the fact that they used to write in chinese."

****Here're some of the thing to keep you think, some vietnamese thought that the last name "Vu" and "Vo" are different, also the "Hoang" and the "Huynh". When obtaining an old letter from their ancestor written in Han language, they cannot read...they might have to call upon a Chinese person to read it for them. They probably thought it might not be their ancestor. Silly? No, infact, it could happen.

>>>>>"Actually the site does not support you on that. It only said that Quang Trung wanted the Qing to officially recognize him as emperor to stop the chinese furthur attacks on vietnam from there after. Quang Trung didn't seek permission, but looked for peace due to fear of furthur chinese invasion in helping the Le as requested by the Le themselves. The thing that you fail to prove is that your little fact on why the chinese got involved in the war. You said that they got involved because Quang Trung wasn't of royal creed (i went back to read your posts). What i am saying is that is not true, another unproven idea you past around. The reason why they came in was to support the Le as the Le asked for chinese help from the Qing courts themselves. The Trinh vs. Nguyen war was not threatening to the throne, the Nguyen started the war thinking that the Trinh had a yoke over the Le and started it to take that abuse off of the emperor in trying to liberate the emperor (from that site, read it), while the Trinh tried to keep that control. The moment the Le asked for the chinese help, Quang Trung declared himself emperor as he saw it as an act of betrayal to vietnam to ask for foreign help. It's there in the site, read it.
It's all in that article. Good luck on reading! The passage is somewhere in the middle of the article, just try to skim through to the part where he crowns himself, all the info is there. "

*****False logic of thinking, the article also addresed that Annam was a vassal to China. Even during the feud between the Nguyen and the Trinh, the Nguyen in the south tried to get the permission for becoming a vassal state to China from the Chinese emperor. In which the Chinese emperor rejected because there was already another "Vuong" (LE) in Annam at the time. Click on "http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/ealc/faculty/dutton/TSHome.html", then click on "A history of Tai Son period(PDF)", page 3.

Let me re-post this website from Dr. Nguyen The Anh at Sorbone University, "http://www.vninfos.com/vninfos/selection/histoire/Attraction_et_repulsion.html":

Again, here's what Dr. Nguyen wrote:

"But, if the Vietnamese succeeded in maintaining their independence over the centuries in spite of the Chinese emperors’ persistent endeavours to enforce their authority over the country, it was largely because China had come to understand that whatever she coveted in Vietnam it did not merit the price demanded for it. Hence, the tributary relationship was maintained, which from the Chinese standpoint meant the ties were those of suzerain and vassal, from the Vietnamese of independent, ‘sovereign’ (though in power terms unequal) states. Strict observance of the rules and courtesies of this relationship on the Vietnamese side contributed to peaceful coexistence. However, the relations determined by the tributary system were not relations between two equal states, but resulted from a complex arrangement that, even though not specifically expressed by any treaty, was nonetheless based on personal ties between the sovereigns of the two countries. Such an understanding implied the tacit agreement by China as the suzerain to lend assistance to her vassal in case of need, and the tacit acceptance by the latter of certain ritual obligations, above all the duty of sending periodical tribute to the Chinese court. The tributary status was not granted to Vietnam as a state, but to its sovereign who in principle obtained his legitimacy from the investiture by the Chinese emperor. Through this investiture, the Chinese Son of Heaven solemnly declared the one on whom he bestowed the title of ‘prince of the state of Annam’ worthy through his loyalty and piety of governing his country. The investiture, therefore, created dependency of some sort, but simultaneously contributed to the establishment of the legitimacy of the Vietnamese monarch with the help of the great neighbouring country."

What do you have to say about this?

You seem to have this notion, as what Dr. Nguyen stated here:

"Likewise, another work composed at the end of the Trần dynasty, Việt Sử Lược [Summary of Viet History],[10] excluded Vietnam from the area controlled by the ancient wise emperors of China, and consequently from the civilizing influences of what was considered in China as the golden age. The intention was to prove that the ancestors of the Vietnamese country, the creators of the Văn-lang kingdom flourishing with its ‘pure, simple customs’ long before there could be any question of Chinese influence, were of equal status to the founder kings of China. In so far as Lạc-long-quân, Văn-lang’s first sovereign, was the Vietnamese equivalent of Huang-di, his cultural innovations were comparable with those of the latter. To say that Văn-lang’s very ancient civilization presented similarities with China’s distant antiquity was in fact tantamount to assert the equality between North and South, by means of the very political and cultural criteria put forward by the Chinese to proclaim their superiority over every other people."

Yes, it's called a stage of denial in your part.

>>>>Then you stated, "Actually the site does not support you on that. It only said that Quang Trung wanted the Qing to officially recognize him as emperor to stop the chinese furthur attacks on vietnam from there after. Quang Trung didn't seek permission, but looked for peace due to fear of furthur chinese invasion in helping the Le as requested by the Le themselves..."

****Here's a thought, why did Quang Trung die after three years of ruling? He was a healthy individual and reunited the north and south part of Annam. Some speculated that the emperor of China poisoned him. What do you think? A strong and mighty person like Quang Trung died without a cause at an early age, that's strange. Anything is possible, but the speculation could have a merit point also.

>>>>You posted, "The wrong part was not where he asked to be emperor, but the part where you said that the chinese interfered and fought against Quang Trung wasn't of their kin. BUT in fact, the chinese only set foot in vietnam to fight, AFTER the vietnamese emperor asked for help. They didn't come in because of one man who wasn't of their kin, but came in because the emperor asked for their help, so they did. THAT was the wrong part..."

****Can you prove that they didn't have any connection? Like I said, I read it somewhere long ago, but couldn't find anything on the web. Don't be a double standard.

>>>>This is what you replied to my friend, "What i find funny is the entire story. How can it be a coincident that TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE who both hated chinese marry eachother and then BOTH of are chinese. C'mon, especially when your raised in vietnam! People in vietnam are ALWAYS loyal to the vietnamese nation, but never did i heard a person deprived to know of their past atleast up to their great grandparents. If your born in china, you would know how to speak in chinese. Being raised in a vietnamese countryside wouldn't change that fact at all, your parents would atleast say a few words in chinese. That's a weird and close to unbelievable story if you tell me. Plus the fact that the guys parents were from vietnam, they should have been raised by their chinese parents who all four (both sides) shoule have known chinese. Chinese people when talking has an accent because they grew up speaking chinese, i doubt that the guys parents can overpass that. Also that story is REALLY FUNNY if it's true. Lol, that guy should have visited vietnam sooner..."

My friend who was born in Vietnam in 1970 fled the country in 1975. He can only speak little Vietnamese, at best. His parents didn't told him that they were Chinese; in fact, I don't know what do they think about the Chinese. What I know is based on my friendship with him. I don't go up to his parents and ask, are you Chinese? And do you hate the Chinese? Does that seem to be impolite? If you are a Vietnamese, you should know this...

>>>>>Your paragraph again, "Think of the Yueh and Han ancestors like this. Think of jesus and christianity. Think of jesus in comparison to Han. Think of china as christianity. Although jesus created christianity, the equivalent to the Han creating china, it doesn't mean that jesus was a christian or the han as being chinese at that time. But the christians came from jesus, and the chinese came from the han. Jesus was a jew to let you know. He didn't know what christianity was about, and was a jew not a christian. Same with the han, the han created the chinese, but the han weren't chinese at that time. So if your name came from china at a time before china existed it can be considered more universal then it is chinese, as there are more descendents to that name then just the chinese. Hmmm, hope that helps, hmmm, more rambling... (but let's hope it helps to let you see what i'm trying to say)"

Okay then, we agree. The Han is an ancestor to the modern Vietnamese also, not an invader nor an outsider. And as I based my logic, my surname came from here... Thank you for the discussion.
The TraveLLer Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 18:16:28 (PDT)

BLAH!!

Actually, a lot of good-looking celebrities in Hong Kong are Cantonese in origin. I know of many examples. People aren't good-looking just because they're from Shanghai, you know. "Fei Fei" (if you know who I'm talking about), is an example.
Elisa Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 17:40:20 (PDT)

The Traveller:

hm...are you sure AU Co is a chinese princess? Zhejiang is in southern china, which makes me think her country belongs in the yueh group.

as far as i know, the malay-polynesians in VN are EDE, JArai people living in the central mountains. ARe they probably descendants of the Dong Son? If Le Van Huu was such a acclaimed historian, so don't be quick to discredit him.
k Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 16:10:00 (PDT)

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